Spiritualists in the Far North - A Debate.

[3of8]

I have been commenting on a previous, now closed thread (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?t=97145), in which I asked certain people to come forward and debate with me and others about the Caithness Spiritualist Centre (Post no. 81).

I have found out from information they had posted on their own website that the CSC had raised money from door charges to psychic/medium evenings, any occasional event they may hold and from numerous raffles.

My main bone of contention was that the CSC had supposedly raised money for charity. This in itself is a good and noble thing to do. But when large amounts of money are taken in door fees, raffles and stores at the back of an event selling goods, how much money is given to charities after expenses are considered? If you blithely announce to all and sundry that charities will benefit from events, isn't it nice to be able to say in a forum, or your own website or some other way such as via a local news report that good works have been done? It seems not in this case. Which gives Spiritualism and Spiritualists a bad name. Not nice.

So reiterate my final comment in post 81 of the closed thread, viz: "Come on here, not to defend yourselves though you can if you wish, but to join in a lively debate."

Second thoughts I'll alter that to "Come on here, not to defend yourselves though you can if you wish, but start a lively debate.

I have many questions to ask, as have many others including those who have sent me pm's.

Is it unreasonable to ask for straightforward answers?

Debate.

[horseman]

Will you accept 3of 8 that your concept is an unaswerable one for some people,spiritualism comes a tad close to Godlyness an must therefore be in line for the same ritualistic dogma that persues all religions.Could go on here,but no worth the while. Just a comment on your thought an in no way dismissive of it.

[wickoldschoolbreaker]

im new to this, ive never been to a spiritual church but know people who do go, and if they can give their congrigation some comfort in passing messages on then who are we to judge them? Many people follow this kind of religion and they earn their own money so can spend it in any way they see fit. im sure they are not being held to ransom, however if they claim to be giving it to charity then which charities are benefitting and if any are you would think that the people holding these events would be more than happy to devulge this information. Either way im sure most people dont care as long as it isnt their own money!

[joxville]

I suppose it's time I 'fessed up. I attend a spiritual church here in Hampshire, have done so for a few years. I'm not going to enter into a debate about my beliefs, I respect peoples rights to think it's all hogwash, I ask you to respect mine to believe in it.

Whilst I can't comment about CSC, I can tell you how the church is run that I attend, specifically, as I'm the treasurer, the way we distribute monies raised.

1. We don't charge an entrance fee.
2. We ask people if they would like to purchase a raffle ticket for £1 per strip of 5 tickets.
3. Out of a regular attendance of 30 people, we usually raise about £18-£22 in raffle ticket sales.
4. We have a collection plate going round at the end of service, this usually yields about £20-£25
5. The lady that deals with the refreshments gives me about £3 most weeks.

A good night is £50+ raised, most times it's around the £40 mark.

The hire of the hall is £20, the raffle prizes cost around £10 max., and the medium is paid £5 travelling expenses, some £10 depending on distance travelled. Twice per year we have a medium visiting who resides in Yorkshire, yet will only take £15 expenses! We also have some mediums who refuse to take any expenses.

The church has been running for 27 years, and for the first 12 years they always donated all profits to local charities. Since then all profits have been banked, including those from special fund raising events held about 4 times per year, a total which now stands at £11,000. The reason we stopped giving to local charities is to accrue enough funds to take out a long-term lease on a hall.

We don't have a committee as such, I'm the only one who actually has been given a 'title', although we have a small group that organises events, arranges visits by mediums, and does the tea/coffee making. None of us take any expenses. Anyone is free at anytime to ask to see the accounts.

As I said previously, I can't comment on CSC, I have no connection to them, and do not know anyone personally, connected to CSC.

For sure, there are charlatans within the spiritual movement, as there are in all walks of life, (or death ), but I hope by providing you with the info of how my church is run, that you'll see that there are genuine spiritualists who do it to pass on their knowledge and give a better understanding of the movement, not to make a fast buck.

[Boozeburglar]

Thanks for the info. Jox.

I have attended Spiritualist churches before, and one thing I noticed was that the mediums use the meetings to promote their private sessions/readings (paid) at the end of the meetings, talking to those interested as well as handing out leaflets, selling books, etc.

Is this perhaps why they are happy to appear for expenses only?

[joxville]

I know, personally, about 70 mediums, but am acquainted with maybe close on 200. Of the ones I know personally, about 20 of them never charge, though you have to go to their house, the others will take £10 up to £30, but that is for a group booking, as many as ten people, which can last as much as 5 hrs. Of the ones I'm acquainted, all visitors to my church, very few actually do private work, though I've no idea what they charge. In all my years of being involved in the spiritual movement, I can honestly say I've only seen 3 that I would consider 'charlatans'. I've never met a medium who has a book or business to promote. I've never charged anyone a single penny for all the readings I've done over the years, some have visited me at home, others I've met on evenings out etc., and when they find out what I do they usually ask for a quick reading. I've never charged and never will, what I have I share, it was given to me for free.

[Metalattakk]

I'm now seriously thinking that Jox's account has been hacked. Surely...it must be true...

Mods! Check the IP addresses!

[cuddlepop]

If there was a spiritulist church locally I too would attend.

Jox,your full of suprises.


If a certain religion brings you comfort what is wrong with that?

When you attend church your asked for a donation so maybe if your bone of contention is that it is claimed in this case to go to charity and they wont disclose who it went too maybe they should just say its "running" costs,just like any other church.

[Dog-eared]

Never judge someone until you have walked two moons in their moccasins.

By then your'e a long way away and your'e wearing their moccasins.

[katarina]

I liked Jox's post. I believe the spiritualist meetings here do charge but then the hall has to be paid for and they don't have a large attendance. I haven't visited the site, but are the mediums who come up also paid? I did go to one once, and the information given out seemed to be correct, but very sketchy. Not worth the five pounds fee to get in. Still, it was interesting.

[Flashman]

It's just a load of mumbo jumbo!

If it was about organized religion the anti-god bashing squad would be all over this like a rash!

[Fran]

3 0f 8, i have been told that you were a member of the caithness spiritualist church and fell out with them and wanted to start your own spiritualist church. There are bad feelings between you i have been told. After reading your post on here which you started when the other one closed, i quite beleive it.

[3of8]

3 0f 8, i have been told that you were a member of the caithness spiritualist church and fell out with them and wanted to start your own spiritualist church. There are bad feelings between you i have been told. After reading your post on here which you started when the other one closed, i quite beleive it.

That's news to me Fran. And I suppose it's now news to you! I wonder who gave you that information? If it was a medium, well they done got it wrong.
For the CSC know not who I am and if they do, someone must have looked up my Org account details and told them, which is highly unlikely. I have NEVER been a member of the Caithness Spiritualist Church. For one, it's not a church that I would be able to attend in the physical sense as it doesn't have it's own building, as every other church has; secondly, I am a spiritualist. I would go to a church but not want to run one. That's like saying a Christian might not go to church because he doesn't like the vicar but would want to run his own.

Someone is spinning you a yarn. Why?

[cuddlepop]

Never judge someone until you have walked two moons in their moccasins.

By then your'e a long way away and your'e wearing their moccasins.

I better change my signature then.

Jox has just suprised me with this revelation.....in the nicest possible way I hasen to add.

[3of8]

Will you accept 3of 8 that your concept is an unaswerable one for some people,spiritualism comes a tad close to Godlyness an must therefore be in line for the same ritualistic dogma that persues all religions.Could go on here,but no worth the while. Just a comment on your thought an in no way dismissive of it.

Thanks for your reply, but I don't think I need to accept my concept as being unanswerable. You are correct in saying that spiritualism comes close to godliness as in other religions. And other religions are answerable to not only god but the people who frequent them as I believe there is a need for openness. Other spiritualist churches and centres are open. Others aren't.

[3of8]

im new to this, ive never been to a spiritual church but know people who do go, and if they can give their congrigation some comfort in passing messages on then who are we to judge them? Many people follow this kind of religion and they earn their own money so can spend it in any way they see fit. im sure they are not being held to ransom, however if they claim to be giving it to charity then which charities are benefitting and if any are you would think that the people holding these events would be more than happy to devulge this information. Either way im sure most people dont care as long as it isnt their own money!

Thanks for your reply. You're right, no-one has their arms twisted to go or to pay, and yes, people can spend their own money in any way they see fit. But where their money goes should really be accounted for.

[3of8]

I suppose it's time I 'fessed up. I attend a spiritual church here in Hampshire, have done so for a few years. I'm not going to enter into a debate about my beliefs, I respect peoples rights to think it's all hogwash, I ask you to respect mine to believe in it.

Whilst I can't comment about CSC, I can tell you how the church is run that I attend, specifically, as I'm the treasurer, the way we distribute monies raised.

1. We don't charge an entrance fee.
2. We ask people if they would like to purchase a raffle ticket for £1 per strip of 5 tickets.
3. Out of a regular attendance of 30 people, we usually raise about £18-£22 in raffle ticket sales.
4. We have a collection plate going round at the end of service, this usually yields about £20-£25
5. The lady that deals with the refreshments gives me about £3 most weeks.

A good night is £50+ raised, most times it's around the £40 mark.

The hire of the hall is £20, the raffle prizes cost around £10 max., and the medium is paid £5 travelling expenses, some £10 depending on distance travelled. Twice per year we have a medium visiting who resides in Yorkshire, yet will only take £15 expenses! We also have some mediums who refuse to take any expenses.

The church has been running for 27 years, and for the first 12 years they always donated all profits to local charities. Since then all profits have been banked, including those from special fund raising events held about 4 times per year, a total which now stands at £11,000. The reason we stopped giving to local charities is to accrue enough funds to take out a long-term lease on a hall.

We don't have a committee as such, I'm the only one who actually has been given a 'title', although we have a small group that organises events, arranges visits by mediums, and does the tea/coffee making. None of us take any expenses. Anyone is free at anytime to ask to see the accounts.

As I said previously, I can't comment on CSC, I have no connection to them, and do not know anyone personally, connected to CSC.

For sure, there are charlatans within the spiritual movement, as there are in all walks of life, (or death ), but I hope by providing you with the info of how my church is run, that you'll see that there are genuine spiritualists who do it to pass on their knowledge and give a better understanding of the movement, not to make a fast buck.

Thanks for your post Jox. That is exactly the way I say things should be done. Clear and open. Other churches or centres I know of do exactly the same.

Mediums who have come up here have expressed to others I know of their concern at the way things are run up here and maybe this is why they decide not to visit.

[Cedric Farthsbottom III]

I suppose it's time I 'fessed up. I attend a spiritual church here in Hampshire, have done so for a few years. I'm not going to enter into a debate about my beliefs, I respect peoples rights to think it's all hogwash, I ask you to respect mine to believe in it.

Whilst I can't comment about CSC, I can tell you how the church is run that I attend, specifically, as I'm the treasurer, the way we distribute monies raised.

1. We don't charge an entrance fee.
2. We ask people if they would like to purchase a raffle ticket for £1 per strip of 5 tickets.
3. Out of a regular attendance of 30 people, we usually raise about £18-£22 in raffle ticket sales.
4. We have a collection plate going round at the end of service, this usually yields about £20-£25
5. The lady that deals with the refreshments gives me about £3 most weeks.

A good night is £50+ raised, most times it's around the £40 mark.

The hire of the hall is £20, the raffle prizes cost around £10 max., and the medium is paid £5 travelling expenses, some £10 depending on distance travelled. Twice per year we have a medium visiting who resides in Yorkshire, yet will only take £15 expenses! We also have some mediums who refuse to take any expenses.

The church has been running for 27 years, and for the first 12 years they always donated all profits to local charities. Since then all profits have been banked, including those from special fund raising events held about 4 times per year, a total which now stands at £11,000. The reason we stopped giving to local charities is to accrue enough funds to take out a long-term lease on a hall.

We don't have a committee as such, I'm the only one who actually has been given a 'title', although we have a small group that organises events, arranges visits by mediums, and does the tea/coffee making. None of us take any expenses. Anyone is free at anytime to ask to see the accounts.

As I said previously, I can't comment on CSC, I have no connection to them, and do not know anyone personally, connected to CSC.

For sure, there are charlatans within the spiritual movement, as there are in all walks of life, (or death ), but I hope by providing you with the info of how my church is run, that you'll see that there are genuine spiritualists who do it to pass on their knowledge and give a better understanding of the movement, not to make a fast buck.

Fantastic post Jox.

[Turquoise]

I've never charged and never will, what I have I share, it was given to me for free.

How well put, Jox! The most accurate readings I have been given have been free. My friend's mum would often give me readings and although she knew little of me, she certainly knew things which no-one else did. On the couple of occasions I paid for a reading, when I was younger, I found it to be generally cold reading.

As Jox has already said, chances are if they're worth their salt, they'll charge enough to cover their travel for example, and that'll probably be it!

[youwhat?]

3 0f 8, i have been told that you were a member of the caithness spiritualist church and fell out with them and wanted to start your own spiritualist church. There are bad feelings between you i have been told. After reading your post on here which you started when the other one closed, i quite beleive it.

It would seem that Fran must have been speaking to the CSC,otherwise she wouldn't have made such an accusation.Instead of finger pointing why not come right out with a name Fran?I mean if you're so convinced of the truth of what you say then you should have no fear of doing that.You're proving to the world at large that you are an unofficial spokesperson for the CSC.
Jox said that anyone can look at the accounts for her church,and I think that's something the CSC should allow as well.