Global Warming Propaganda

[Tubthumper]

Wthe2 - Is there any way of getting an averaged price per unit of wind generated, over a year perhaps?

[bekisman]

Bit more ref fluctuations in wind:

That the very small power produced varies uncontrollably and very sharply hundreds of times per year between maximum and zero output. To state that the power "varies somewhat" because of the variation of the wind force amounts to purposefully hiding the whole and much more unfortunate truth.

The innovation of Wind turbines will never be able to bring any improvement in this behaviour as it is determined completely by a law of nature.

Because of this inconsistent behaviour the production factor can only be low.

As another consequence of this behaviour of Wind turbines, the cost per generated kWh will be and will remain high, even more so because the electricity that is delivered by the Wind turbines is of a bad and unreliable quality, and only available during unpredictable periods, and hence unfit for individual consumers. That is why it is misleading to compare the cost of unreliably produced "wind-kWh" with the cost of almost completely reliably produced "conventional kWh".

The fluctuations in the power from a great number of Wind turbines, whether on or offshore, can become a great danger for the safety of the electricity grid. Compensation for these swings by upward or downward adjustment of conventional plants is only possible to a certain extent. And, if the limit were surpassed, this would lead to a great risk mechanical of damaging the turbines of the conventional plants. Apart from the fact that those plants would then operate with a lower efficiency because of being forced to adjust their output, and consequently their CO2 emissions per produced kWh would be considerably higher then when operating with a constant power.

The more and the bigger the Wind turbines that are built, the larger their share in the power fluctuations between maximum at wind force B-6 or more and zero by wind force B3 or less. Just have a look at the wind force forecast in the newspapers or on television!

[crayola]

Have a look at this then. The wind was up and down like the proverbials in January. It is worse when we get a lot of wind than it is when there is none.
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/6...turnposter.jpg

The total went down to 8MW at one point last week and the average was below 14MW for two whole days around Thursday and Friday. I have the bar charts but they're on my other computer.

This is fun as well as educational.

[bekisman]

Now there's a thought:
Statistical facts are that the United Kingdom produces about two per cent of the global carbon dioxide.
Of our UK CO2 emissions only about one third comes from power stations — another third from vehicle exhausts and the other third from industrial processes and domestic heating.


So our power stations contribute only about one third of two per cent, which is 0.7 per cent of global CO2.
All the wind turbines in the UK produce far less than three per cent of UK electricity. So three per cent of 0.7 per cent is only 0.02 per cent. That leaves a staggering 99.98 per cent of our electricity power station-produced global C02 undiminished.

So wind farms don't stop CO2 (Conventional Power stations have to bo standby - for when the wind dies - of course.) Electric bills will increase - as WE have to buy this expensive power. Landowners and developers get vast amounts of cash. So really; what's the point? Build more nuke!

[Tubthumper]

Bit more ref fluctuations in wind: That the very small power produced varies uncontrollably and very sharply hundreds of times per year between maximum and zero output. To state that the power "varies somewhat" because of the variation of the wind force amounts to purposefully hiding the whole and much more unfortunate truth. The innovation of Wind turbines will never be able to bring any improvement in this behaviour as it is determined completely by a law of nature. Because of this inconsistent behaviour the production factor can only be low. As another consequence of this behaviour of Wind turbines, the cost per generated kWh will be and will remain high, even more so because the electricity that is delivered by the Wind turbines is of a bad and unreliable quality, and only available during unpredictable periods, and hence unfit for individual consumers. That is why it is misleading to compare the cost of unreliably produced "wind-kWh" with the cost of almost completely reliably produced "conventional kWh". The fluctuations in the power from a great number of Wind turbines, whether on or offshore, can become a great danger for the safety of the electricity grid. Compensation for these swings by upward or downward adjustment of conventional plants is only possible to a certain extent. And, if the limit were surpassed, this would lead to a great risk mechanical of damaging the turbines of the conventional plants. Apart from the fact that those plants would then operate with a lower efficiency because of being forced to adjust their output, and consequently their CO2 emissions per produced kWh would be considerably higher then when operating with a constant power.
The more and the bigger the Wind turbines that are built, the larger their share in the power fluctuations between maximum at wind force B-6 or more and zero by wind force B3 or less. Just have a look at the wind force forecast in the newspapers or on television!

Something a bit whiffy about that quote Bekisman. Where did it come from??

[bekisman]

Something a bit whiffy about that quote Bekisman. Where did it come from??

Sorry about that as I always (well nearly always) give the link: http://windenergy-the-truth.com/negen.html

[ywindythesecond]

The total went down to 8MW at one point last week and the average was below 14MW for two whole days around Thursday and Friday. I have the bar charts but they're on my other computer.

This is fun as well as educational.

This is the whole story for 18th February. Fun innit crayola?

[ywindythesecond]

Wthe2 - Is there any way of getting an averaged price per unit of wind generated, over a year perhaps?

This is a good guide. http://www.nfpa.co.uk/auctionprices.html The price for wind and hydro and landfill gas include the value of a ROC and the Climate Change Levy Exemption. There is a link below the chart which gives you ROC values.
I haven't found a source of coal generation prices, but on www.bmreports.com the Daily System Price tag gives you maximum daily sell prices. This is not open market value so I suspect they are fairly heavily discounted as it seems to me that the grid has to offload excess generation.
One possible scenario is if a sudden rush of wind comes along, the Grid might sell the surplus to a coal generator for less than his sale price, the coal generator switches off transmission and trades the discounted electricity from National Grid at his normal contracted rate. Our prices go up and no carbon emission is saved.

[crayola]

This is the whole story for 18th February. Fun innit crayola?

That was the very day. Not much gets past you.

How did you get those numbers?

[ywindythesecond]

That was the very day. Not much gets past you.

How did you get those numbers?

On the bmreports website,Generation by fueltype table, click on "24H instant data". It is a record every five minutes of all generation seen by the National Grid on an xl spreadsheet. Every five minutes, the last five minutes is added to the bottom, and the first five minutes drops off the top. If you don't catch it at the time it is lost. Column I is wind.
For BWEA calculations, go to http://www.bwea.com/edu/calcs.html and scroll down to homes equivalent. The formula is wrong, you need to divide by 4.7(MWH) not 4700(kwh) to get the answer.