Taic dhan Gaidheal.

[weeboyagee]

Interesting thread. I can see both sides of the argument.

What I definitely DO know, WBG, is that today I went, in an effort to try to be supportive of you and yours, to the Mod 2010 Facebook page, fully intending to join up and show folk that we Caithness based musicians are really looking forward to the Mod and all the cultural inspiration it brings. I was genuinely disappointed to discover that such a tiny percentage of it was actually in English and such a huge percentage in Gaelic that I didn't know what it was about, so I felt a bit excluded and I didn't join... yet.

Tricky problem you've got there, mate.

Hello there Tootler! There are two social network pages so that we cater for both Gaels and non-Gaels (it's a tough life y'know!) the Facebook one is mainly (but not exclusively) in Gaelic and Bebo is almost all (but not exclusively!) in English. www.bebo.com/modghallaibh2010

There is also a lot more info on the bebo site than the Facebook site although we are trying to satisfy all language needs where we can. Many apologies if you didn't know that and I hope that you still feel welcome to join both - whatever language! There are moderators on both and you know one of them, who is the new Events Officer, very well - she is a fellow musician! We are delighted to hear any feedback - including that you have made here - I'll take that on board - what about a bilingual translation then - would that suit (if you don't fancy joining bebo or if you aren't on bebo)?

Keep tootling - we have just had a recent convo where we can now catch up with you on our last chat! We NEARLY have all the info!

Hope you are well!

WBG

[weeboyagee]

I think you missed my point - I have no problem with that. The problem is when people are initially speaking english but then switch on the arrival of an undesirable. As ywindythesecond said (and I don't know why i didn't think to put it like this). It is like speaking normally then whispering behind your hand to exclude someone. At very least it is childish and rude, on the other hand it could also be classed as racism.

Thanks for the explanation - I now see that what you are saying is not what I thought - and I agree with what you are saying. Speaking in another language to purposely exclude someone is rude. To speak or carry on speaking in an alternative language when it is what you would normally do is not.

In Ireland there were Gaels and Welsh in a bar for the Pan Celtic Festival. The common denominator English - both spoke in their respective languages to the exclusion of each others group - but the exclusion was not on purpose.

WBG

[weeboyagee]

http://www.facebook.com/#/group.php?gid=102778993025

There you go tootler - all sorted - confirmation that posts can be put in either Gaelic or English! All because of your representation - we listen (every now and then!)

The post says "Please feel free to post in English or Gaelic - we welcome both! The Welsh will post in Welsh no doubt! Ma tha sibh ag iarraidh a' cur pòst anns a Ghàidhlig no anns a' Bheurla air an duileag seo - bith sin ceart gu leòr!"

We have a lot of Welsh members as well who are intending to visit next year. Any Facebook Member is welcome to join - it's open to the public - hope to see a lot of org members joining soon!

WBG

[ywindythesecond]

Thanks for the explanation - I now see that what you are saying is not what I thought - and I agree with what you are saying. Speaking in another language to purposely exclude someone is rude. To speak or carry on speaking in an alternative language when it is what you would normally do is not.

In Ireland there were Gaels and Welsh in a bar for the Pan Celtic Festival. The common denominator English - both spoke in their respective languages to the exclusion of each others group - but the exclusion was not on purpose.

WBG

That's the point WBG, thanks for putting it plainly.
ywy2

[Each]

... now I am almost fluent in Swedish and recently passed a job interview in Norwegian .

This has allowed me on my visits to Sweden to be able to be exposed to such things as going to church, reading history archives ,local TV etc etc in fact get a real immersion in the culture which I definately could not without knowledge of the language. I wonder if this is the real problem with Gaelic ..an ignorance of the language leading to ignorance of the culture

Think you hit the nail on the head there Peter, there is more to the Gaelic culture than just a different set of words, its a way of perceiving and understanding the world around you.

I was working down in Applecross a couple of years ago and got talking to one of the bodachs (old men) in gaelic about the area. He lamented that when he was young very few spoke English, today very few in area spoke Gaelic. He remebered the day that everybody change to English.

It was during the war, a load of kids from Glasgow were evacuated to the Area and day they arrived everybody started to speak English so that the evacuated kids would feel comfortable and welcome.

I think this was an one act of kindness amongst many others that have contributed to the unintended decline in the language.

There are many other examples where Gaelic speakers have deferred (out of politeness) to those speaking English.

I'm not saying they were wrong, but nevertheless it happened, and now we are where we are. Gaelic has moved from being a langauge of the street and public realm- to the language of the home, discrete, private.

So are gaelic speakers really the ones to blame for the langauages decline,as some have suggested ?


We are surrounded by English, in the community, on the TV and radio and the presence of Gaelic is so small, that you might be forgiven for thinking that it no longer existed. Where it does emerge timidly from the shadows into the light of public awareness, it must endure a barrage of scorn and disbelief that is unlikely to inspire confidence - particularly amongst a younger generation.

The other dificulty that is sometimes encountered - is a desire to over celebrate the language. Rather than a natural everyday experience, it has to become the focus of some event or exhibition. I have noticed, especially with kids, a real dis incentive to speak, if they feel that that are being made out to be an exhibit in a zoo which everyone has come along to stare and gawp at.

Gaelic needs to be natural everyday experience, that is instinctive and not self conscious. There shouldn't be any barriers erected, real or implied, as to where Gaelic can and cannot be spoken.

We may be speaking another language, but were not talking about you, and were not keeping some deep dark secret to ourselves - Gaelic conversation is mostly about mundane, everyday events just like most English conversation.

[northener]

Think you hit the nail on the head there Peter, there is more to the Gaelic culture than just a different set of words, its a way of perceiving and understanding the world around you.

I was working down in Applecross a couple of years ago and got talking to one of the bodachs (old men) in gaelic about the area. He lamented that when he was young very few spoke English, today very few in area spoke Gaelic. He remebered the day that everybody change to English.

It was during the war, a load of kids from Glasgow were evacuated to the Area and day they arrived everybody started to speak English so that the evacuated kids would feel comfortable and welcome.

I think this was an one act of kindness amongst many others that have contributed to the unintended decline in the language.

There are many other examples where Gaelic speakers have deferred (out of politeness) to those speaking English.

I'm not saying they were wrong, but nevertheless it happened, and now we are where we are. Gaelic has moved from being a langauge of the street and public realm- to the language of the home, discrete, private.

So are gaelic speakers really the ones to blame for the langauages decline,as some have suggested ?


We are surrounded by English, in the community, on the TV and radio and the presence of Gaelic is so small, that you might be forgiven for thinking that it no longer existed. Where it does emerge timidly from the shadows into the light of public awareness, it must endure a barrage of scorn and disbelief that is unlikely to inspire confidence - particularly amongst a younger generation.

The other dificulty that is sometimes encountered - is a desire to over celebrate the language. Rather than a natural everyday experience, it has to become the focus of some event or exhibition. I have noticed, especially with kids, a real dis incentive to speak, if they feel that that are being made out to be an exhibit in a zoo which everyone has come along to stare and gawp at.

Gaelic needs to be natural everyday experience, that is instinctive and not self conscious. There shouldn't be any barriers erected, real or implied, as to where Gaelic can and cannot be spoken.

We may be speaking another language, but were not talking about you, and were not keeping some deep dark secret to ourselves - Gaelic conversation is mostly about mundane, everyday events just like most English conversation.

Each, that was an excellent post. I agree 100%

Regarding the domination by English culture, we could also argue that the English culture is now being overtaken by an American one, via the media and Americas' economic power.
Time rolls on and no language or culture can remain static. If it does - it dies.

I believe that the Gaelic language and culture has a large part to play in the shaping of Scotlands' future.
But NOT at the expense of those who do not see themselves as part of Gaeldom. Scotland is a big country, there should be room for regional diversification of language and culture applied equally across the whole of Scotland.

[peter macdonald]

"Regarding the domination by English culture, we could also argue that the English culture is now being overtaken by an American one, via the media and Americas' economic power.
Time rolls on and no language or culture can remain static. If it does - it dies.

I believe that the Gaelic language and culture has a large part to play in the shaping of Scotlands' future.
But NOT at the expense of those who do not see themselves as part of Gaeldom. Scotland is a big country, there should be room for regional diversification of language and culture applied equally across the whole of Scotland."

Northerner very true ....But surely given Caithness being what is basically a cultural /linguistic crossroads between Gaelic, Norn (gamle Norsk) and English then maybe we should try to support Gaelic to stop it going extinct the same way Norn did After all it was the language of East Caithness and although little remains of the language I would suspect it would sound better than the Simpsons style American prevailant in the media :-)
PM

[golach]

At very least it is childish and rude, on the other hand it could also be classed as racism.

Ehhhh??? how did you ever reach that conclusion, Racism?? I shake my owld head in despair

[northener]

Northerner very true ....But surely given Caithness being what is basically a cultural /linguistic crossroads between Gaelic, Norn (gamle Norsk) and English then maybe we should try to support Gaelic to stop it going extinct the same way Norn did After all it was the language of East Caithness and although little remains of the language I would suspect it would sound better than the Simpsons style American prevailant in the media :-)
PM

Absolutely. But by education and negotiation. Not by imposition (as in road signs) - which I feel irritates many Caithnessians a damn sight more than the Gaelic language itself.

[Leanne]

Ehhhh??? how did you ever reach that conclusion, Racism?? I shake my owld head in despair

To change language to exclude someone of a different language can be perceived as racism...If someone is speaking Gaelic and continues to speak Gaelic, fair enough. But to change from English to Gaelic as an exclusion hmmm

[golach]

To change language to exclude someone of a different language can be perceived as racism...If someone is speaking Gaelic and continues to speak Gaelic, fair enough. But to change from English to Gaelic as an exclusion hmmm

Why if Gaelic is your mother tongue, I have experienced this in wee local bars in North Wales, walk in, a sudden silence, then all speak in Welsh, I do not see a problem with this, I am the stranger in their country.
On the other hand, if I walked into the Comm in Thurso, a silence fell then all started speaking in Gaelic, I would assume the Melvich Gaelic Choir were in town and WBG was on the bell.

No Racisim at all.

[Leanne]

Why if Gaelic is your mother tongue,

But if Gaelic were the mother tongue the person would not be speaking in English in the first place...and then change

Anyway it's not my argument - I can speak welsh and from the Gaelic on here, it seems I can read Gaelic too...

[Cedric Farthsbottom III]

I am so naive.Caimera a tha thu?

Ye reply Tha mi gu mhat.

Ayrshire dialect:

How are ye?Are ye fine?

Ta ma guid mate.

Right I'm off to continue ma studies.

[Cedric Farthsbottom III]

For Weeboyagee,theres an infamous phrase....Is mis Malloch Moore.

I am so naive.Is Mis ...My name is ....his surname Moore.Malloch,what is this gaelic name in English?Oot of curiousity.

[Serenity]

I was in Wick today and went to the public conveniences. Can someone please explain WHY a sign stating "No smoking" in English, which is accompanied by a cigarette in a red circle with a line through it, also needs the "No smoking" and associated legal justification to be repeated in another language which very few people actually speak. If they can't understand the English, surely they can understand the very clear sign?
Waste of money.

[gleeber]

I was working down in Applecross a couple of years ago and got talking to one of the bodachs (old men) in gaelic about the area. He lamented that when he was young very few spoke English, today very few in area spoke Gaelic. He remebered the day that everybody change to English.

It was during the war, a load of kids from Glasgow were evacuated to the Area and day they arrived everybody started to speak English so that the evacuated kids would feel comfortable and welcome.

I think this was an one act of kindness amongst many others that have contributed to the unintended decline in the language

I suspect that story is more myth than fact. I worked in Applecross for almost 2 years 25 years ago and got to know the locals pretty well. They always spoke English in my company and if ever they spoke Gaelic I never considered they may have been talking about me. Anyway, all of them, without exception, spoke Gaelic. I think what the old man may have meant was that since the 70s there was an influx of incomers to the peninsula and because Gaelic had no formal recognition they had no way of learning it.
That does'nt mean I don't acknowledge the concerns you raise Each. I'm particularly aware of the school regimes in Skye during the 50s where children were strapped for talking Gaelic. I'm also aware of the deep scars incidents like that will leave on a cultures soul.
I don't doubt this recent revival of Gaelic via the Gaelic Bill will help more people to learn the language therefore maintaining it's future but I have a deep concern with the effect an equalising of the Gaelic language with the English language will have on the mindset of an English speaking modern Scotland.
I think the politicians got it wrong and now only the Gaels can change it.
Over to you!

[Cedric Farthsbottom III]

I suspect that story is more myth than fact. I worked in Applecross for almost 2 years 25 years ago and got to know the locals pretty well. They always spoke English in my company and if ever they spoke Gaelic I never considered they may have been talking about me. Anyway, all of them, without exception, spoke Gaelic. I think what the old man may have meant was that since the 70s there was an influx of incomers to the peninsula and because Gaelic had no formal recognition they had no way of learning it.
That does'nt mean I don't acknowledge the concerns you raise Each. I'm particularly aware of the school regimes in Skye during the 50s where children were strapped for talking Gaelic. I'm also aware of the deep scars incidents like that will leave on a cultures soul.
I don't doubt this recent revival of Gaelic via the Gaelic Bill will help more people to learn the language therefore maintaining it's future but I have a deep concern with the effect an equalising of the Gaelic language with the English language will have on the mindset of an English speaking modern Scotland.
I think the politicians got it wrong and now only the Gaels can change it.
Over to you!

Its got nothing to do with politicians.Gaelic has been forgotten.Its now an individual choice.Dae ye learn it or not?I think I'll learn the basics like I did with French and Martian,just so I can say a welcome rather than a full blown conversation.

[gleeber]

Ye may be right cedric and it has little to do with politicians now but they were in it till the neck at the beginning.
I think, given the opportuntiy I would respond favourably to a Gaelic class some night during the week but that doesnt alter a deeper concern I have for Caithness and the identity I grew up with.

[Cedric Farthsbottom III]

Yer right gleeber.With the blethers I have had over the past years wi folk,Gaelic is the least of thier worries.

[cuddlepop]

I had an interesting conversation with a retired teacher from Sleat.
This lady is a well respected teacher in the community and like myself fears that gaelic is the trendy choice for parents and that no real interest is expressed in learning it to be part of the community.
Gaelic was never spoken in the playground the children reverted back to English and parents who had no gaelic had difficulty in helping their children with their homework.

Gaelic whether we like it or not will be "rammed" down or throats because thats where local councils can access money.

Portree Primary school won the Highland Councils team of the year award for its excellent work at being an inclusive enviroment for both English and Gaelic speaking children,both in the community and school.

Guess what HC are going to break this school up.

Why,well guess where the money is.