Fox Hunting

[_Ju_]

I am not going to comment one way or the other on the act of hunting itself.

But...

Foxes now are being shot indiscriminately for fear of a population explosion. Foxes may soon become an endangered species due to the very law that was put in place to protect them

So then you (and others) believe that fox hunting was an efficient means of population control for the foxes???????????


Population control in wild animals can be a necessity. Unfortunately it is mans intervention in nature that makes it a necessity. Chasing down a fox with a dozen horses and hounds on a weekend when half cut is not population control of foxes.

Fox hunting is different in absolutely nothing to bull fighting. Absolutely nothing except for the species envolved. How many of you potencial fox hunters would go watch a bull fight and cheer?

Kathy, I understand what you are saying about heritage of breeds that will die out, etc. But breeds evolve, things change, times change. The bells tolled on shire horses when machinery took over their many chores on the farm. Greatly reduced, but they are still here, albeit not with the same "job". There is nothing to stop people from getting together, maybe laying a false trail, or just going out for a good old tally'ho ride.

[porshiepoo]

As someone who has unfortunately participated in this barbaric sport I can honestly say that it should never ever be made legal. Ever!
I used to work on a Hunting & Eventing yard and although I only participated in a hunt a few times, it was too much.
There is nothing humane about it, the dogs do not line up and one is selected for a swift kill of the fox.
The poor fox is chased to exhaustion and then is descended on by a pack of over excited hounds that the proceed to tear it apart. The excitement from the following hunt is actually quite worrying to witness and the screaming of the fox is traumatising. It's basically a frenzy.
What you have to remember as well is that some places actually protect the fox breeding grounds in order to carry out these hunts, the whole sick practice has absolutely nothing to do with keeping fox numbers down, that is simply the concept they hide behind in order to make the majority of the public accept this cruel sport.

If a rider requires this type of exercise for the horse and themselves then Drag hunting should fit the bill just as easily.
I guess Drag Hunting, which employs the use of the dogs that people are so concerned about being killed with the illegality of blood hunting, doesn't have quite the same popularity. Why is this? Simply because there is no death at the end of it and there's no neanderthal gesture of blood smearing on new comers.

If the fox population is increasing so massively, employ the use of humane equipment to deal with them swiftly and painlessly.

[porshiepoo]

So then you (and others) believe that fox hunting was an efficient means of population control for the foxes???????????


Population control in wild animals can be a necessity. Unfortunately it is mans intervention in nature that makes it a necessity. Chasing down a fox with a dozen horses and hounds on a weekend when half cut is not population control of foxes.

Fox hunting is different in absolutely nothing to bull fighting. Absolutely nothing except for the species envolved. How many of you potencial fox hunters would go watch a bull fight and cheer?

Kathy, I understand what you are saying about heritage of breeds that will die out, etc. But breeds evolve, things change, times change. The bells tolled on shire horses when machinery took over their many chores on the farm. Greatly reduced, but they are still here, albeit not with the same "job". There is nothing to stop people from getting together, maybe laying a false trail, or just going out for a good old tally'ho ride.

Absolutely, completely agree 100%

[buggyracer]

As someone who has unfortunately participated in this barbaric sport I can honestly say that it should never ever be made legal. Ever!
I used to work on a Hunting & Eventing yard and although I only participated in a hunt a few times, it was too much.
There is nothing humane about it, the dogs do not line up and one is selected for a swift kill of the fox.
The poor fox is chased to exhaustion and then is descended on by a pack of over excited hounds that the proceed to tear it apart. The excitement from the following hunt is actually quite worrying to witness and the screaming of the fox is traumatising. It's basically a frenzy.
What you have to remember as well is that some places actually protect the fox breeding grounds in order to carry out these hunts, the whole sick practice has absolutely nothing to do with keeping fox numbers down, that is simply the concept they hide behind in order to make the majority of the public accept this cruel sport.

If a rider requires this type of exercise for the horse and themselves then Drag hunting should fit the bill just as easily.
I guess Drag Hunting, which employs the use of the dogs that people are so concerned about being killed with the illegality of blood hunting, doesn't have quite the same popularity. Why is this? Simply because there is no death at the end of it and there's no neanderthal gesture of blood smearing on new comers.

If the fox population is increasing so massively, employ the use of humane equipment to deal with them swiftly and painlessly.

interesting to hear from somone who has actually attended a hunt for themselves

just one question, what happens when "the hunt" are out on there drag hunt or mock hunt and they come across the real thing?

do you expect the hounds to still follow the drag?

going back to the ban, i think you will find most hunt supporters are happy with their lot, the ban cant be enforced or easily proven to have been broken, hunt numbers are at all time highs, thanks to labour it could be said thay have never had it better!

[porshiepoo]

interesting to hear from somone who has actually attended a hunt for themselves

just one question, what happens when "the hunt" are out on there drag hunt or mock hunt and they come across the real thing?

do you expect the hounds to still follow the drag?

going back to the ban, i think you will find most hunt supporters are happy with their lot, the ban cant be enforced or easily proven to have been broken, hunt numbers are at all time highs, thanks to labour it could be said thay have never had it better!

I've never actually participated in Drag Hunting but if the dog gets the scent of a Fox or a Deer then it should be the job of the Whipper-in to stop them giving chase.

Drag hunting also involves the use of Bloodhounds as well as Fox hounds and often will gather foot followers also.
Should be much more enjoyable without all the gore and something that I would definitely consider participating in.

[buggyracer]

I've never actually participated in Drag Hunting but if the dog gets the scent of a Fox or a Deer then it should be the job of the Whipper-in to stop them giving chase.

Drag hunting also involves the use of Bloodhounds as well as Fox hounds and often will gather foot followers also.
Should be much more enjoyable without all the gore and something that I would definitely consider participating in.

but how is the whipper in, to know they are following the drag or the real thing, its not impossible for the two paths to cross

[Leanne]

Incidentally it is complete garbage to mantain that fox numbers can only be controlled by hunting, just send a few keepers from Caithness south to show them the alternatives.

So then you (and others) believe that fox hunting was an efficient means of population control for the foxes??????????

It's not about eradicating the foxes, its about maintaining them at a sensible level. Easy food means population explosion. Hunting weeds off some of them reducing the levels to a number that is manageable. What I am trying to say is that up here there are very few foxes - they have been obliterated by the method of control. South of the border there are more foxes - you can still see them wandering around at dusk. After the initial hunting ban there was a population boom, now there are fewer and fewer animals as they are being "effectively" controled - how is this good for the species?

Incidentally I have never fox hunted

There is nothing to stop people from getting together, maybe laying a false trail, or just going out for a good old tally'ho ride.

I guess Drag Hunting, which employs the use of the dogs that people are so concerned about being killed with the illegality of blood hunting, doesn't have quite the same popularity.

Drag hunting has always been as popular as fox hunting it's just landowners were less keen to give access to their land as they were 'getting nothing out of it'. In Cheshire where I am originally from, even pre-ban, the divide was about 50:50 between fox:drag.

The only problem with the drag hunting is that to participate it is far more expensive. The minimum I have paid for 3 hours riding is £50. Factor in travel on top of that and you have a rather expensive day out

Foxhunting was a day out for everyone (rich and poor alike). Drag hunting is for those who can afford it

Again I would like to add - because someone has implied my view despite me not actually giving them - I have never fox hunted. But I can see how it can benefit the farmers, the fox (in that they are not "overhunted") and the fragile rural economy...

Dogs in action at a drag hunt

[Vistravi]

Put yourself in the fox's postion!

I'd rather be shot in the head and die almost instantly than chased til exhaustion hits and then torn to bits!

Fox hunting is an absoulte barbaric sport and if we are so concerned about keeping the population of foxes down then shoot them instead of hunting them down and ripping them to shreads!

Animal cruelty in an any form is just unnesscary. If you have to kill an animal for whatever reason then make it quick and painless.

As humans we have the responsibilty to look after and care for our environment and the creatures in it. When you must kill an animal to protect several other animals then we must have the deciency to respect the life we are ending by making it as quick and painless as we can.

I do not know much about the legislation with the ban of fox hunting but i know what is right and wrong and fox hunting is severely wrong on so many levels.

[Leanne]

I'd rather be shot in the head and die almost instantly than chased til exhaustion hits and then torn to bits!

IME foxes aren't killed by head shots. They are often shot in the leg or the side and finished off with a second bullet. Sometimes the wounded fox escapes and goes off to die a slow death. It is very rare for a clean head shot - have you tried shooting a moving target at distance?

Lamping at night puts the odds in the favour of the hunter as the lamp almost stuns the fox. But if a fox isn't killed clean you have little to no chance of finding it to finish it off humanely...

And shooting isn't painless

Edit - what we need is to electrify all the fences in the countryside to keep the foxes away from the animals (as I have done with my own coop - mainly to keep my dogs off though). Unfortunately electrifying the fences would make a walk in the countryside pretty difficult and it isn't exactly eco friendly. It's a no-win thing We need someone to invent really good fencing that will keep the foxes out. That way lack of food will keep the numbers down and hunting won't be necessary. Anyone up for the challenge of super smashing fence design?

[porshiepoo]

I don't dispute the need to keep Fox numbers down in some areas, however Fox hunting with Dogs should never ever be an accepted form of culling.
It's no different to the slaughter of whales or the clubbing of seal pups. It's barbaric and should not have a place in society today.

I can also state one thing with 99.9% of surety and that is that keeping Fox numbers down for the benefit of livestock and our countryside is not the reason that people enjoy and participate in this so called 'sport'.
As I said earlier I know of areas where Fox have been encouraged to breed and those areas actively protected purely for this enjoyment.
These people actually enjoy hunting and then chasing these animals, they do their utmost to prevent them getting away and will enter dodgy territory to get their prize.
There is no respect for the poor animal that has given them a couple of hours of bloomin pure thrilling enjoyment.

[porshiepoo]

but how is the whipper in, to know they are following the drag or the real thing, its not impossible for the two paths to cross

Correct it's not impossible for the two paths to cross and I daresay that some hunts disguise themselves as Drag Hunters and have the odd "accidental" kill.

You need to understand the mentality of these pack dogs and the control that the Whipper in should have over these hounds.
Although the Huntsman is responsible for the hounds in field and will give them their orders, the whippers in will ride alongside the hounds and prevent any splitting off from the pack to investigate a different scent from the chemical one they should be following.
Any decent Whipper in will be able to tell the difference in the noise and the behaviour of the pack when they pick up a live scent, plus, the direction is pre-determined and he/she/they will have a pretty good idea of where they should be headed.

I actually don't understand the problem anyone has with preferring a chemical chase over a live chase.
There is a lot of pomp and circumstance involved with Hunting - dress codes, etiquette codes and heaven forbid anyone who actually passes the field master but this is what a lot of people like and I guess it keeps the hunt group semi organised, but this doesn't change with Drag Hunting, the same etiquette is followed just without the blood, gore, tragedy and horror that may follow a live hunt.

[_Ju_]

I said Population CONTROL NOT Extermination.

Can you pretty please explain to me how hunting a few foxes on the weekend is efficient population control? I just do not get it. The death of a few foxes does not curb fox numbers. The hounds do not sniff out the most significant animals to curb population growth. Fox hunting with hounds and horses is about people entertaining themselves with a blood sport. It has never ever been about population control. It's about having fun. Now I know I wouldn't want my child to have fun at the expense of animal welfare. Would you?

[_Ju_]

but how is the whipper in, to know they are following the drag or the real thing, its not impossible for the two paths to cross

If the whipper (or whatever you want to call the person responsible for the dogs) does not know his/her dogs, has not trained his/her dogs and cannot tell from their behaviour what is going on then they aren't doing their job properly. dogs are extremely efficient in communicating with "their people/pack". If you have a dog then you already know this.

[buggyracer]

If the whipper (or whatever you want to call the person responsible for the dogs) does not know his/her dogs, has not trained his/her dogs and cannot tell from their behaviour what is going on then they aren't doing their job properly. dogs are extremely efficient in communicating with "their people/pack". If you have a dog then you already know this.

yes, but they are also extreemly efficient at doing their own thing on occassion no matter how well trained (i have dogs so i do know this)

[buggyracer]

Correct it's not impossible for the two paths to cross and I daresay that some hunts disguise themselves as Drag Hunters and have the odd "accidental" kill.

You need to understand the mentality of these pack dogs and the control that the Whipper in should have over these hounds.
Although the Huntsman is responsible for the hounds in field and will give them their orders, the whippers in will ride alongside the hounds and prevent any splitting off from the pack to investigate a different scent from the chemical one they should be following.
Any decent Whipper in will be able to tell the difference in the noise and the behaviour of the pack when they pick up a live scent, plus, the direction is pre-determined and he/she/they will have a pretty good idea of where they should be headed.

I actually don't understand the problem anyone has with preferring a chemical chase over a live chase.
There is a lot of pomp and circumstance involved with Hunting - dress codes, etiquette codes and heaven forbid anyone who actually passes the field master but this is what a lot of people like and I guess it keeps the hunt group semi organised, but this doesn't change with Drag Hunting, the same etiquette is followed just without the blood, gore, tragedy and horror that may follow a live hunt.

so why has the Govt not tried to ban the outright culling of foxes? to me it seems the only way this can be stopped?

i have no interest in attending a mounted fox hunt, but i do feel this is a class thing, and labour have jumped on the bandwagon.

the fact that hundereds of thousands marched in London (the biggest, political march in history) to fight the ban to me suggests that perhaps joe public isnt so keen on the ban as labour would lead us to beleive??

[Vistravi]

[quote=Leanne;60980 And shooting isn't painless

Edit - what we need is to electrify all the fences in the countryside to keep the foxes away from the animals (as I have done with my own coop - mainly to keep my dogs off though). Unfortunately electrifying the fences would make a walk in the countryside pretty difficult and it isn't exactly eco friendly. It's a no-win thing We need someone to invent really good fencing that will keep the foxes out. That way lack of food will keep the numbers down and hunting won't be necessary. Anyone up for the challenge of super smashing fence design?[/quote]

Aye its not but if the hunters shoot the animal in the head then they would die quickly instead of doing a half job by shooting the animal in the leg.

My dad was a part time hunter in his young days. He respected the life of the animal by breaking the neck or shooting in the head.

Aye you're right about the fences. If farmers had some sort of fence that kept the foxes out then they would'nt be such a worry about lifestock being killed and having to shoot the fox to protect their animals.

[BINBOB]

Put yourself in the fox's postion!

I'd rather be shot in the head and die almost instantly than chased til exhaustion hits and then torn to bits!

Fox hunting is an absoulte barbaric sport and if we are so concerned about keeping the population of foxes down then shoot them instead of hunting them down and ripping them to shreads!

Animal cruelty in an any form is just unnesscary. If you have to kill an animal for whatever reason then make it quick and painless.

As humans we have the responsibilty to look after and care for our environment and the creatures in it. When you must kill an animal to protect several other animals then we must have the deciency to respect the life we are ending by making it as quick and painless as we can.

I do not know much about the legislation with the ban of fox hunting but i know what is right and wrong and fox hunting is severely wrong on so many levels.

I think u are with me on this..can not bear any kind of cruelty to animals.....and I actually love foxes...they can not get to TESCO for food .What they do is to survive...drag hunting is fine [ if that is what it is].POWER TO MR .FOX !!!

[BINBOB]

Aye its not but if the hunters shoot the animal in the head then they would die quickly instead of doing a half job by shooting the animal in the leg.

My dad was a part time hunter in his young days. He respected the life of the animal by breaking the neck or shooting in the head.

Aye you're right about the fences. If farmers had some sort of fence that kept the foxes out then they would'nt be such a worry about lifestock being killed and having to shoot the fox to protect their animals.

But...surely that wouldmean the poor farmers spending cash!!!I think they would rather moan....

[BINBOB]

I said Population CONTROL NOT Extermination.

Can you pretty please explain to me how hunting a few foxes on the weekend is efficient population control? I just do not get it. The death of a few foxes does not curb fox numbers. The hounds do not sniff out the most significant animals to curb population growth. Fox hunting with hounds and horses is about people entertaining themselves with a blood sport. It has never ever been about population control. It's about having fun. Now I know I wouldn't want my child to have fun at the expense of animal welfare. Would you?

Ditto...

[MrsK]

But...surely that wouldmean the poor farmers spending cash!!!I think they would rather moan....

And this comment proves exactly what I was talking about earlier.

An ignoramus who believes farmers are nothing more than wealthy skinflints.... thanks for that, Binbob. Right on cue......