Is it about time.

[RandomHero]

If we ban alcohol what next? Ban tea and coffee too, they are addictive, they can have harmful effects, 100% of heroin users say they used coffee first, caffeine is a gateway drug.

If we ban tea and coffe then what? Chocolate would be a good candidate, it's addictive and causes people to be overweight, obesity is a major killer. Did you know that 98% of rapists and serial killers admitted to eating chocolate in the previous week?

After chocolate what next, sleep, it gives you halucinations. Do you know how many man hours a year are lost through sleeping? 100% of mass murderers are known to have "taken a nap" or "had a kip" (those are slang terms which have grown up around the sleep culture) in the previous 24 hours.

If we legalise cannabis what next? On the available data less people would smoke it, we have a far higher percentage of cannabis users than the Netherlands where it was decriminalised and the 2003 reclasification to class C has not led to an increase. I doubt it would make any significant difference at all to the number of users, it's already easily obtainable on most street corners, people are going to smoke it as what we do. We would save a lot of tax payers money which currently goes to policing, prosecuting and keeping people involved in the drugs trade in prison. We would deprive the drug runners of their source of income. The quality of the cannabis people smoke could be controlled leading to a reduction in the health risks. Cannabis could be taxed which would mean more money in the exchequer for hospitals, maternity units, pensioners.

And if we legalise cannabis then what next?

[RandomHero]

[QUOTE=Gleber2]

I am and I was working a hundred miles from Woodstock and should have been there.

Random Hero, where do you bury your head. I have seen cannabis openly smoked in some very high places on the social ladder. Cannabis is OK and accepted virtually everywhere as a fact of life.Heavier sentences?? The death penalty isn't enough in some countries to put a stop to it.If you put many more people in jail for drugs, there won't be enough room for real criminals. And how are you going to police your new heavier penalties? The police cannot even control the cannabis flow in a place as transparent as Caithness. Come into the real world, into the 21st century and bury your pride. Legally, politically and in many other ways, Great Britain sucks and its whole legal system is built on weak foundations, on top of a crumbling tower.
How can any sane person be proud of this crumbling edifice?
We cannot stop the drug trade by any means at our disposal and we and the government need to make big changes in our thinking and the law if we are to address the problem of poisonous substances being smoked by young people.
Nobody on this thread so far has stated that they know why cannabis is illegal. I would be interested in your views on this aspect of the problem.

That's not my job. I see people smoking it all the time so my head is not 'buried'. The area that I work in is full of it so I am not ignorant to it. I choose not to smoke it and I would not want my children or grand children smoking it.

[dpw39]

Tea, coffee, nicotine, alcohol et al, can be addictive, however

A drug is neither moral nor immoral; it's just a compound.

The compound itself is not a menace to society until a human-being treats it as if consumption bestowed a temporary license to act like an Asshole!

Frank Zappa [born 1940].


My opinion is that if you as an individual accept the responsibilities of any actions caused whilst under the influence of any form of drug, recreational or others, and you are not at risk to yourself or to the general public, then thats your decision. It is far to often we see statements in the local press with regards to violent behaviour, whereas the defendant states "that they where drunk/under the influence at the time" expecting the excuse to get them off the charge or at least a lesser conviction - BALDERDASH.

We all have a personal responsibility for our actions and if we react violently to others whilst influenced by whatever drug it is, then we have no defense of our actions and should be punished appropriately.

Instead of arguing the pro's and con's of legalisation of so-called recreational drugs, we should be asking the question, why does it seem to be a greater demand for these type of drugs in our communities and the damage they cause when abused... especially the younger generation.

Obviously certain illegal drugs have proved beneficial to certain people sufferring from various incapacities.

I personally believe that Canabis should remain illegal as the other fashionable drugs should be as well. If they where made legal, who's going to manage and control their production and resale? Surely not the government, they can't even sort out their own issues with the drug industry...

Ciao,


Dave the Rave.
dpw39

[Gleber2]

Now I am a bit more enlightened
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ma/4079668.stm

An excellent reference, esteemed older brother, and I am glad that the light of reason is permeating your sometimes closed mind. What you are seeing in this run down of history is a whitewashed BBC version of events.
Anslinger was in the pay of Hearst,who had bought a helluva lot of trees for paper pulp, Du Pont petro chemicals, who had invented rayon and nylon and the cotton growers of the southern states of the USA. In the UK, it was the cotton manufacturers backed by the Egyptian cotton growers who campaigned for the prohibition of cannabis. At the time in question, advances in farming technology meant that hemp became a major threat to the afore-mentioned money men. Hemp was, until then, one of the most valuable crops in the world. A schooner needed countless tons of hemp to keep it sailing(50 or 500 tons, I'm not sure which), all important documents like the bible and money were made from hemp paper, it can be made into cloth from canvas to silk-fine, it produces seeds which are rich in oil and protean, it is very easy to grow and actually benefits the ground it grows in by fixing carbon from CO2, it can be made into plastic and fibre boards and it is the fastest growing plant in the world. To protect the interests of the money men, cannabis had its reputation blackened to give credence to Anslinger's case which he presented to the government of the USA at a time when there were very few members present to vote against his Bill. It is believed that the immense fortunes of Hearst and Du Pont greased a few palms to facilitate the process.
All of a sudden, the most important plant in our reality was outlawed world-wide to serve the interests of the few.It was even grown in Caithness at Hempriggs and other places and was a major earner for the Earl of Caithness.
Recently, over the last ten to twenty years, there has been a move to reintroduce hemp products, but, if you wanted to buy the raw materials, you would have to go to Hungary(very expensive) or China to buy it. In India, the peasants, who used cannabis preparations for seventy percent of their illness's, couldn't get it. India sent a very clear paper on the goodness of hemp at the same time as the Egyptians but our enlightened government chose to take the Egyptian report as it was more in their financial interests to make hemp illegal. All of a sudden, hemp vanished from our reality and then the war came and hemp was in very short supply. One of the experiments conducted by the Yanks invented the strain knowm as skunk by genetically modifying hemp to make it grow faster. This the breed that Holland has made its fortune from. Now the government pay a healthy subsidy to farmers who want to grow it but the rules restrict the breeds available because the farmers are not allowed to grow anything with more than .0001% THC. This restricts the size and there are no factories in the UK to process the crop when harvested so not many farmers choose to grow it.

Now we have a hysterical attitude to a substance which has been used to the benefit of man for thousands of years so that the few can profit from ecollogically dangerous practices. Trees being felled by the million to make newspapers when the tree is our atmosphere filter. Hemp is a much better filter of greenhouse gasses and grows from seed to twenty feet in 4 to 5 months.

This whole sordid tale if a fair illustration of a thread I started in January. The human race is certifiable!!!!

[Gleber2]

Getting back to the question raised earlier, I believe the reason Cannabis was originally made illegal was that the workers in Egypt building the Suez canal were tending to slack off after indulging in the weed on their breaks. Having made the use of the stuff illegal there, Egypt being at the time a British Protectorate, it was made illegal at home too. Prior to that its use was not that much frowned upon - indeed Queen Victoria used to use it for relief from menstrual cramps.

Recent research work has shown that Cannabis is in fact heavily addictive. However it is not eliminated from the body fast like the more notorious heroin, opium etc, so there's no "cold turkey" from withdrawal. When research subjects were given an enzyme that blocked the action of THC, the active ingredient, they abruptly exhibited the same withdrawal symptoms as opiate addicts.

As for legalisation, like every argument there are two sides to the coin. A case can be made that making it legal would make supply safer for the user, and *possibly* break the link between cannabis and other drugs. As long as you buy cannabis and heroin from the same unscrupulous creeps, one will be a "gateway" to the other. The other side of the coin is, as my late uncle, a family GP, used to say, that we already have enough legal drugs that harm people and we don't need another one.

A fair post, Mr.Brims, and not much to argue about as your opinion is valid. However, this thread is about the problems caused by the fact that it is illegal and I am not arguing for the legalisation per se, but for something to be done to prevent young people taking in substances which are poisonous.
Valium and other similar drugs are causing infinitely more problems than they ever cured but we prescribe more and more to more and more people.Is this logical and right? I think not.Cannabis was used medicinally for thousands of years and for this invaluable natural medecine to be denied those who would benefit from it for purely financial reasons is crazy.

[JAWS]

Cannabis only became illegal in Britain in September 1928 along with restrictions on the use of many other drugs which had previously not been subject to restriction.

The fallacy that cannabis legislation had anything to do with Egypt was in order to give the impression that prior to Europeans being involved in Egypt it's use in Europe was unknown.

The only conclusion I can draw is that the connection between cannabis and Egypt was to give the impression that decent, upright British Citizens were being led to the depths of immorality and depravity by habits given to them by "nasty, idle, treacherous Johnny Foreigner".
"Good grief, we must put a stop to it immediately! It's not British!"

The truth of the matter is that cannabis, like many other drugs, had been freely available and in use in Britain and Europe for centuries.
It was only during and after the First World War that Governments seem to have developed the habit of wanting to put restrictions on things people used for their recreation. (The Licensing Laws were first introduced during WW1, and then only as a temporary measure)

Of course, once they found they could get away with doing things like that then they just couldn't resist the temptation to do it again and again and again.
Oh, the joys of having POWER!"

[Gleber2]

Cannabis only became illegal in Britain in September 1928 along with restrictions on the use of many other drugs which had previously not been subject to restriction.

The fallacy that cannabis legislation had anything to do with Egypt was in order to give the impression that prior to Europeans being involved in Egypt it's use in Europe was unknown.

The only conclusion I can draw is that the connection between cannabis and Egypt was to give the impression that decent, upright British Citizens were being led to the depths of immorality and depravity by habits given to them by "nasty, idle, treacherous Johnny Foreigner".
"Good grief, we must put a stop to it immediately! It's not British!"

The truth of the matter is that cannabis, like many other drugs, had been freely available and in use in Britain and Europe for centuries.
It was only during and after the First World War that Governments seem to have developed the habit of wanting to put restrictions on things people used for their recreation. (The Licensing Laws were first introduced during WW1, and then only as a temporary measure)

Of course, once they found they could get away with doing things like that then they just couldn't resist the temptation to do it again and again and again.
Oh, the joys of having POWER!"

The points made about Egypt are not fallacious. Egypt submitted a paper at the request of Westminster as was India. Egypt stated that it made their workers lazy and indolent and, and as such made it undesirable. India submitted a report praising the effects of cannabis but the government of Britain decided to go with Egypt. This particular drug was the apparent reason for the removal of hemp.
Check the web site pointed out by Golach and my own posts subsequent. I deal with historical fact gleaned from the period 1920 to 1939, some of which are not in the public domain. Of course, those people who did a full investigation are not given credence because most of them were users and campaigners for legalisation. We have more or less lost the use of one of the most important plants on Earth because it was to the financial advantage of those who were already rich and couldn't care less about the effect they were having on the people and the ecology of our planet.
Because of the incredible duplicity of people in power in the USA and the UK,
our young people are smoking life threatening garbage. We need to redress the situation asap and stop pointlessly argueing the pros and cons of legalisation.

[JAWS]

Ah, now we are singing from the same hymn book, or is it song sheet, I really must polish up on the latest buzz words.

I was relating the legislation and the date for building the Suez Canal. Of course the Government would choose the Egyptian report, it told them what they wanted to hear whereas the Indian Report didn't. As is usual, they cherry picked the things that suited them and cast the rest aside.

The politicians who believe that the solution to any problem, real or imagined, is to pass a law against it had arrived.
Unfortunately, they are still with us and even more unfortunately, they are not going to go away.
They take the easy way out, never mind the problem, make it illegal and we can then blame others for not putting a stop to it.

The belief that by retaining the current law as it stands will stop the use of cannabis is as realistic as the belief that Prohibition was going to stop people drinking alcohol. All that happens is that gangsters get very rich and people who would normally be reasonably law-abiding end up mixing with criminals and losing respect for the law.

The Governments own adverts for not buying smuggled cigarettes or pirate videos says as much by linking those actions with sustaining major criminal organisations.

[Gleber2]

Ah, now we are singing from the same hymn book, or is it song sheet, I really must polish up on the latest buzz words.

I was relating the legislation and the date for building the Suez Canal. Of course the Government would choose the Egyptian report, it told them what they wanted to hear whereas the Indian Report didn't. As is usual, they cherry picked the things that suited them and cast the rest aside.

The politicians who believe that the solution to any problem, real or imagined, is to pass a law against it had arrived.
Unfortunately, they are still with us and even more unfortunately, they are not going to go away.
They take the easy way out, never mind the problem, make it illegal and we can then blame others for not putting a stop to it.

The belief that by retaining the current law as it stands will stop the use of cannabis is as realistic as the belief that Prohibition was going to stop people drinking alcohol. All that happens is that gangsters get very rich and people who would normally be reasonably law-abiding end up mixing with criminals and losing respect for the law.

The Governments own adverts for not buying smuggled cigarettes or pirate videos says as much by linking those actions with sustaining major criminal organisations.

Good grief, a consensus. Can you see any way forward in which the problem underlined by this thread can be alleviated or solved. Short of blanket legalisation, I can see no way forward.

[weeboyagee]

[QUOTE=RandomHero]

I'm not the 'older generation', thank you very much.

Boo-hoo..............I unfortunately am since I last posted!

Anyway or not,........gleber2 knows from previous posts where I stand on this one. I have never been pro-legalisation of drugs. I am with golach on this one and have been for ages.

Legalising this drug allows the weed to become legally accepted in society. This class of drug is the bouncing board to the harder drugs beyond. This problem is distinctly different from alcohol and cigarettes - the change of mood and behaviour due to the drug is very different from the effects of alcohol and smoking. However, just because alcohol is legal (albeit with restrictions) and smoking is legal (albeit with the same...) does not mean that society has to rubber stamp the use of cannabis and the like and bring yet another addictive substance into the realm where it will cost the tax payer the multi millions to police and administrate.

We sent the wrong message to the younger generation with smoking and drinking, do we really need to do the same wrong thing by legallising this drug? My mate smoked it regularly when he was younger. He gave it up years and years ago,..........not starting means not having to stop. Legalise it and many more than those who use it now will use it after it becomes legal.

I would much rather spend the extra on the crooks and pedlars of the illegal distribution and use than the extra on the policing and administrating!

[golach]

Good grief, a consensus. Can you see any way forward in which the problem underlined by this thread can be alleviated or solved. Short of blanket legalisation, I can see no way forward.

Dont include me in your consensus, I may have said earlier that I am more enlightened, by that I meant I know a bit more of the reasons it was made illeagal and when. But I stand by my earlier statements and I vote for making Cannabis a Class A drug, not a Class C drug.

[gleeber]

I'm quite impressed Gleber. You have managed to present a coherant argument against prohibition without actually calling for legalisation. Thats clever and I applaud you.
I try and avoid these threads now, mainly because I understand the fears shown by Golach and Random Hero and Angie and now Weeboyagee.
What does anger me though, is when committed alcohol guzzlers like themselves, judge cannabis users from a moral high ground. Of course theres problems with cannabis use, but if that was the reason for their disgust towards cannabis users,(protecting them against themselves) surely their moral superiority would also extend to the dangers and destructive qualities of alcohol? Thats a question by the way.
Alcohol has no competition in the mind bending stakes. I believe that fact alone is responsible for the havoc John Barleycorn wreacks on alcohol consuming societies.
No inteligent adult is unaware of that havoc, but the argument that cannabis should not be de-criminalised because we have enough problems with alcohol is probably nothing but a cover for alcohol guzzling, dope condemning hypocryts. I wish i could find a nicer way of saying that but I am lost for words.
That being said, that is the area anyone advocating legalisation of cannabis will need to address. Why do inteligent people like them, condemn and degrade people who would chose to use cannabis while sitting with a nice wee malt in their hands?
I dont believe for one minute that telling the untold story of why hemp was criminalised in the first place will do anything to change the minds of Golach or Random hero or acameron ot weeboyagee.
I dont really know what it is they are frightened off, or why their defence of alcohol and condemnation of cannabis is so strong. From where I'm sitting its an odd one but that is what will need to be addressed, not why it was prohibited in the first place.

[Gleber2]

Dont include me in your consensus, I may have said earlier that I am more enlightened, by that I meant I know a bit more of the reasons it was made illeagal and when. But I stand by my earlier statements and I vote for making Cannabis a Class A drug, not a Class C drug.

The consensus was with Jaws.You and I will never agree on this subject. The rest of your post continues to illustrate your continued ignorance and bigoted prejudice on a subject which goes way beyond personal feeling and which can only be solved by those with concern and knowledge with no egotistical,personal axe to grind. Do you think that the police will make any difference to the escalating use of all drugs if they make pot Class A? What will that achieve, I ask you? Nothing that has been done and nothing that can be done by the combined police of the Western world has made or will make a whit of difference or made the slightest dent in the trade world wide.
Come down from your cloud Golach and see the situation clear of your prejudiced bigoted glasses.

[golach]

I dont really know what it is they are frightened off, or why their defence of alcohol and condemnation of cannabis is so strong. From where I'm sitting its an odd one but that is what will need to be addressed, not why it was prohibited in the first place.

Gleeber, what do you not understand, the word "Illegal" or what, the use of Alcohol is not illeagal, the use of Cannabis is. Alcohol has never made me violent or to commit any crime, I have never driven under the influence, because I dont drive. I use alcohol as a social tool to relax in the company of friends,and what I love about it now is that Tobacco has also been banned in buildings that are in public use sic my Local.
And before you come back at me and say that the use of Cannabis is used as a similar social tool in the company of friends, I dont care, its use is illeagal, alcohol is not.

[Gleber2]

[quote=weeboyagee]

Boo-hoo..............I unfortunately am since I last posted!

Anyway or not,........gleber2 knows from previous posts where I stand on this one. I have never been pro-legalisation of drugs. I am with golach on this one and have been for ages.

Legalising this drug allows the weed to become legally accepted in society. This class of drug is the bouncing board to the harder drugs beyond. This problem is distinctly different from alcohol and cigarettes - the change of mood and behaviour due to the drug is very different from the effects of alcohol and smoking. However, just because alcohol is legal (albeit with restrictions) and smoking is legal (albeit with the same...) does not mean that society has to rubber stamp the use of cannabis and the like and bring yet another addictive substance into the realm where it will cost the tax payer the multi millions to police and administrate.

We sent the wrong message to the younger generation with smoking and drinking, do we really need to do the same wrong thing by legallising this drug? My mate smoked it regularly when he was younger. He gave it up years and years ago,..........not starting means not having to stop. Legalise it and many more than those who use it now will use it after it becomes legal.

I would much rather spend the extra on the crooks and pedlars of the illegal distribution and use than the extra on the policing and administrating!

Well young fellow, I was going to answer your post but my old mate Gleeber has made a case which I feel I don't need to add to. What is it, in your 40 year ignorance, that makes you so afraid of the weed. I bet you and your cronies consumed a fair ammount of self righteous alcohol at your party but that of course is different.

[gleeber]

I always get sucked into your fixed ways Golach and end up being rude to you when we fall out. Not this time though brother, I love you man.
Peace

[golach]

I always get sucked into your fixed ways Golach and end up being rude to you when we fall out. Not this time though brother, I love you man.
Peace

Im no falling oot wi ye Gleeber, just disagreeing with you, an I dinna understand this " I love you man" statements, I dont swing that way either.

[Gleber2]

Im no falling oot wi ye Gleeber, just disagreeing with you, an I dinna understand this " I love you man" statements, I dont swing that way either.

If 'is Gleber wis at way inclined, he widna fancy ye eether. Yur too owld.

[sjwahwah]

Random Hero... rage and weed? Quite frankly, you know nothing about pot then. I use pot occasionally, almost everyone I know uses pot or has at sometime in their lives and the few that have not have the same deluded view as yourself. There is nothing wrong with it except for the facts that Gleber2 points out.

In fact plants of the Cannabis genus could single-handly save the planet! Alcohol is HUNDREDS.... maybe thousands of times worse then any smoke off a spliff! But, I might add.. smoking pot is probably not so good for you. It sure is tasty in cakes tho and steeped for tea not to mention it is far more effective and potent taken these ways rather than smoking it!

Secondly, those statistics are CRAP! It's the same thing with Cancer death statistics. 99% of people who die that were suffering from cancer die from the TREATMENT of cancer... not the disease itself! yet, they are down in the statistics as dying from the disease which takes many forms but is generally known as CANCER. So, careful with the statistics.

Pot should be legal! Every "drug" is legal in some countries.. their probs with it are no better or worse than they were before it was legalised..

Besides, the prescription drugs (Prozac for example?) they dole out to anyone who asks & food additives (aspartame) & flouride are FAR worse than anything that grows in the ground. These things should be illegal!

[Gleber2]

Random Hero... rage and weed? Quite frankly, you know nothing about pot then. I use pot occasionally, almost everyone I know uses pot or has at sometime in their lives and the few that have not have the same deluded view as yourself. There is nothing wrong with it except for the facts that Gleber2 points out.

In fact plants of the Cannabis genus could single-handly save the planet! Alcohol is HUNDREDS.... maybe thousands of times worse then any smoke off a spliff! But, I might add.. smoking pot is probably not so good for you. It sure is tasty in cakes tho and steeped for tea not to mention it is far more effective and potent taken these ways rather than smoking it!

Secondly, those statistics are CRAP! It's the same thing with Cancer death statistics. 99% of people who die that were suffering from cancer die from the TREATMENT of cancer... not the disease itself! yet, they are down in the statistics as dying from the disease which takes many forms but is generally known as CANCER. So, careful with the statistics.

Pot should be legal! Every "drug" is legal in some countries.. their probs with it are no better or worse than they were before it was legalised..

Besides, the prescription drugs (Prozac for example?) they dole out to anyone who asks & food additives (aspartame) & flouride are FAR worse than anything that grows in the ground. These things should be illegal!

Weel said, that man!! On one point, Holland has the least drug problem in Europe. Speaks for itself, don't it??