American National Health Service?

[buddyrich]

I think if you can pay for it then go ahead, use a private company that doesnt use NHS resources. It frees up resources for those of us who arent lucky enough to have the wealth to put on treatment.

Surely if someone pays a private firm to treat them, it's not queue-jumping, rather it's one less person in the queue.

[tonkatojo]

I think if you can pay for it then go ahead, use a private company that doesnt use NHS resources. It frees up resources for those of us who arent lucky enough to have the wealth to put on treatment.

Surely if someone pays a private firm to treat them, it's not queue-jumping, rather it's one less person in the queue.

The problem being those private hospitals use Ex NHS staff lured away with higher wages, then the NHS has to pay agency staff on much higher rates again to cover, Also they use the same consultants/ surgeons that more often than not are employed in the NHS. Also the ethics of training comes into it, How many training hospitals are there in the private sector ?.
My debate is if these private insurance based facilities did not exist the queue jumping wouldn't be an issue, it would be a clinical need system.

[Gene Hunt]

The problem being those private hospitals use Ex NHS staff lured away with higher wages, then the NHS has to pay agency staff on much higher rates again to cover, Also they use the same consultants/ surgeons that more often than not are employed in the NHS. Also the ethics of training comes into it, How many training hospitals are there in the private sector ?.
My debate is if these private insurance based facilities did not exist the queue jumping wouldn't be an issue, it would be a clinical need system.

Not sure there.

My wife worked in the NHS until July, She left and went to work for a private company. She certainly didnt do it for the higher wage as she is only making a smidge more than she did in the NHS. She left due to the constant changes in policy, directives and general bull being rained down on her from above from the ever expanding number of Managers, Administrators and people financing job creation. She left because she wants to treat patients and felt that she was being pulled away from it and drowning in Goverment produced bumf.

I had testicular cancer not that long ago and went private at one point, in my view the NHS dont take male cancers as seriously as female cancers. My priority was to get treated and make sure my family had me around in a year. I think the NHS is a great idea, unfortunatly it seems to be a constantly hungry money eater that has lost its focus. I got ragged about going private but the simple fact is I pay 40% tax. I pay a higher percentage than some into the pot the NHS is funded from. Yet I dont thnk that this entitles me to priority treatment. I didnt jump any line and someone who couldnt afford private treatment got my place in the line. So I reject any criticism levelled at me that somehow I am depriving anyone else. Not saying that you criticised me directly, just generally as I went private.

[oldmarine]

Some interesting comments in this thread. I wish I had all the answers but I don't. So far my retirement insurance (government medicare and private Blue Cross/Blue Shield of Arizona) has paid all of my bills. With the decline of the value of the American dollar due to the flooding in the US of A with worthless paper money which has no backing is bound to have undesirable results. China and the UK holds most of our debt. The interest paid is bound to put us further into debt. I wonder how long our country can last with that kind of financial manuevering? I have read that many Canadians have to wait so long for their appointments that they are coming down to the the states where they can get faster appointments. There again, with our news media I don't know what to believe.

[tonkatojo]

Not sure there.

My wife worked in the NHS until July, She left and went to work for a private company. She certainly didnt do it for the higher wage as she is only making a smidge more than she did in the NHS. She left due to the constant changes in policy, directives and general bull being rained down on her from above from the ever expanding number of Managers, Administrators and people financing job creation. She left because she wants to treat patients and felt that she was being pulled away from it and drowning in Goverment produced bumf.

I had testicular cancer not that long ago and went private at one point, in my view the NHS dont take male cancers as seriously as female cancers. My priority was to get treated and make sure my family had me around in a year. I think the NHS is a great idea, unfortunatly it seems to be a constantly hungry money eater that has lost its focus. I got ragged about going private but the simple fact is I pay 40% tax. I pay a higher percentage than some into the pot the NHS is funded from. Yet I dont thnk that this entitles me to priority treatment. I didnt jump any line and someone who couldnt afford private treatment got my place in the line. So I reject any criticism levelled at me that somehow I am depriving anyone else. Not saying that you criticised me directly, just generally as I went private.

So what do you in your wisdom recommend ?.
Good for her (your wife) making a stand on her morals.
Your correct about the focus.
Your also correct regarding bumf, managers an all, it is surely time for the once great NHS to be radically reformed (that's a good government term), by that I mean get back to basics not I want I need types of needs, taking out the vanity cosmetics, ivf (that's a hard decision but look at our population).
You miss my point that the consultants you saw were probably working for the NHS at the same time, and if there was no private hospitals you would have seen him for nowt albeit in the queue or clinical need.

[Gene Hunt]

So what do you in your wisdom recommend ?.
Good for her (your wife) making a stand on her morals.
Your correct about the focus.
Your also correct regarding bumf, managers an all, it is surely time for the once great NHS to be radically reformed (that's a good government term), by that I mean get back to basics not I want I need types of needs, taking out the vanity cosmetics, ivf (that's a hard decision but look at our population).
You miss my point that the consultants you saw were probably working for the NHS at the same time, and if there was no private hospitals you would have seen him for nowt albeit in the queue or clinical need.

I dont recommend anything except the NHS being made to perform on a budget that isnt endless. The money needs to be used wisely. Why should Sex Change Ops be on the NHS for instance ??, why should Drug Addicts be supplied Methadone for free while Asthmatics pay for Inhalers ?? .. we need to get back to effective treatments for those who havent inflicted their injuries on themselves as a priority for one.

And the Docs I saw were in a fully private hospital and not an NHS one. They weren't NHS employees. There is no way I would have paid to be treated by someone I would have got for nothing anyway.

[tonkatojo]

[QUOTE=Gene Hunt;582887]I dont recommend anything except the NHS being made to perform on a budget that isnt endless. The money needs to be used wisely. Why should Sex Change Ops be on the NHS for instance ??, why should Drug Addicts be supplied Methadone for free while Asthmatics pay for Inhalers ?? .. we need to get back to effective treatments for those who havent inflicted their injuries on themselves as a priority for one.
That's part of my argument, you should include "health Tourists" as well..

[Alan16]

If you want some info on the actual proposed bill in America, I suggest you watch the following videos. They make up an interview that took place last night (August 20th) on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart between Jon Stewart (the host of The Daily Show with...) and Betsy McCaughey (one of the loudest, in both senses of the word, opposers to the bill. It makes for interesting watching, not only because it shows the lunacy behind the position of the people against the bill, but also because there is some detailed talk about the bill itself, something you don't hear much on British television because we are apparently more interested in the fact that people are yelling at town hall meetings. Also, if you are just interested in the art of debating, they are worth watching as Jon Stewart is very good at picking apart peoples arguments, and is a lot cleverer than people think because he hosts a "comedy" show.

A quick word about the clips. They are three clips, each around 8 minutes long. Before the second and third clips there is a warning stating that the video may contain adult content or strong language. There is in fact no adult content or strong language. The warning is displayed because these videos have not been edited at all. This is because (and it is explained better at the end of the third clip) it is the final show before the crew of The Daily Show go on holiday and so they did not make the editing crew stay late to cut the 24 minute interview down to the 10 minutes they showed on the broadcast last night. Hence if you saw the programme on Comedy Central last night or will see it on More4 this evening you will see that they just cut the interview off at the end of their allotted time, in the middle of Stewart speaking from what I remember. Finally, I have not pasted the wrong links, it has just been oddly numbered (Part 1, Ext-Part 1, Ext-Part 2).

The links:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/th...ccaughey-pt--1

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mo...nterview-pt--1

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mo...nterview-pt--2

[DOCTOR]

That is the voice of reason and I agree.
What is your view on my thoughts that Private Health should be outlawed or banned in this country (UK).
Do you think it would cause to many problems with consultants, surgeons or hospital managers nice little earners, organising these queue jumping by paying "private" taking up NHS resources beds ETC, just because they have the cash or luck to have inherited money, while the rest of us have to get in the queue and wait.
I believe the way they do it is pay for a "private" consultation then get well ahead on the NHS waiting list as the rest of us get put further down the queue to see the same consultant when he has time to see us.

A bit of a rant but I genuinely would like your opinion.

Private Health should not be banned as it is giving a choice to the people.

The people who pay private DO NOT jump the queue in NHS.

They are sometimes seen by NHS consultants in a private facility ( outside their NHS contracted hours ). There are also full time private consultants and doctors working in this country.

Some NHS hospitals have designated private wards for private patients which is a money earning source of the NHS hospital. In other words this money is reinvested into the services of the NHS patients. If you stop this avenue less money will be redistributed in this way.

Again private patients do not jump queues in NHS hospitals.

[canuck]

The American free market health care system and the UK publicly funded system both began in a time and era very different from life in the twenty-first century. There will be cracks in both systems just because of the intense pressure placed on them by changing times, changing ways of treating ailments, changing medications and the emergence of new medical issues.

My 'foreign' experience includes a trip to A & E in Germany last year. There I was with a very obvious broken ankle and a very obvious Canadian accent. The focus was on the ankle, no one seemed bothered by the medical coverage for payment. And it didn't change one bit when I produced my NHS card and the EU card that goes with it. I've had my daughter to emergency with sprained ankles (could have been breaks) in Canada and I have had my own experience in Germany and in Scotland where my treatment was carried out. All were exactly the same. Gosh, the medical staff even told the same jokes!

[tonkatojo]

Private Health should not be banned as it is giving a choice to the people.

The people who pay private DO NOT jump the queue in NHS.

They are sometimes seen by NHS consultants in a private facility ( outside their NHS contracted hours ). There are also full time private consultants and doctors working in this country.

Some NHS hospitals have designated private wards for private patients which is a money earning source of the NHS hospital. In other words this money is reinvested into the services of the NHS patients. If you stop this avenue less money will be redistributed in this way.

Again private patients do not jump queues in NHS hospitals.

I beg to differ, you state they do not jump the queue does paying private to use the same facilities that would be used otherwise to treat those in the queue or leaving beds empty to wait for the elite to pay not count. The "stories" of people paying to see the same consultant that they would otherwise have to wait in the queue thus saving 10-16 weeks waiting time then being that further up the list for the said consultant to eventually treat/operate in the same NHS facilities ?. As one who can not would not pay private I strongly object (to no avail ) to an institution being abused by the more affluent. The money reinvested I suppose that includes scanners that are installed and once again the masses have to take the back seat to footballers and private "patients" who are deemed more important, I don't think so.
I repeat disband private facilities and put the fairness back into the NHS....... Perhaps this debate should be on a fresh thread.

[Margaret M.]

an interview that took place last night (August 20th) on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart between Jon Stewart (the host of The Daily Show with...) and Betsy McCaughey (one of the loudest, in both senses of the word, opposers to the bill.

Love Jon Stewart, he really made her look like a ninny. Health care in the United States is wonderful, if one has insurance. Some of the best doctors in the world are here because the compensation attracts them. However, it is a disgrace that everyone does not have access to decent health care.

The right wing talking heads make it sound like Universal Health Care will be the downfall of the country. I am tired of hearing them go on about the horrendous health care system in Britain. They take some isolated incidents and make them sound like the norm. Unfortunately, there are few left wing talk shows to provide the balance needed in this argument.

[DOCTOR]

I beg to differ, you state they do not jump the queue does paying private to use the same facilities that would be used otherwise to treat those in the queue or leaving beds empty to wait for the elite to pay not count. The "stories" of people paying to see the same consultant that they would otherwise have to wait in the queue thus saving 10-16 weeks waiting time then being that further up the list for the said consultant to eventually treat/operate in the same NHS facilities ?. As one who can not would not pay private I strongly object (to no avail ) to an institution being abused by the more affluent. The money reinvested I suppose that includes scanners that are installed and once again the masses have to take the back seat to footballers and private "patients" who are deemed more important, I don't think so.
I repeat disband private facilities and put the fairness back into the NHS....... Perhaps this debate should be on a fresh thread.

You have all the right to differ and I respect your view.

There are certain checks and balances in NHS so 'consultants' do not abuse their position for personal financial gains.

The people who are paying private health insurance are also entitled to NHS treatment ( as the rest of the population )

I put a scenario to you to answer:

A patient seeks a private consultation and a consultant finds a life threatening condition requiring immediate treatment. The consultant knows that this treatment is available on NHS.What advice or course of action should this consultant take?
This is an ethical dilemma where providing that treatment on NHS will not give any financial gain to the consultant. If the consultant offers the same treatment to the patient in a private facility it will cost to patient but consultant will also gain financially.

[BINBOB]

I beg to differ, you state they do not jump the queue does paying private to use the same facilities that would be used otherwise to treat those in the queue or leaving beds empty to wait for the elite to pay not count. The "stories" of people paying to see the same consultant that they would otherwise have to wait in the queue thus saving 10-16 weeks waiting time then being that further up the list for the said consultant to eventually treat/operate in the same NHS facilities ?. As one who can not would not pay private I strongly object (to no avail ) to an institution being abused by the more affluent. The money reinvested I suppose that includes scanners that are installed and once again the masses have to take the back seat to footballers and private "patients" who are deemed more important, I don't think so.
I repeat disband private facilities and put the fairness back into the NHS....... Perhaps this debate should be on a fresh thread.

Absolutely agree with everything u say,T.
Had afriend[in central belt]...........was nunwell last december.He saw private consultant in private hospital...........immediately admitted to NHS hospital.It was to be a 6 week stay for treatment.........he was shown to a bed in ward with other folk...........stamped his feet saying he would ONLY stay if he got his OWN room!!

Well..it worked ...........he got his own room [ at no charge]..eventually started going home for the night in his own bed.............paid£ 100 per night he spent in hospital[private with BUPA]...........
He then went to a NHS hospital ,in glasgow[ heart op.[........demanded own room once again...he got it.

Had his op.recovered well...........returned to previous hospital........same room as before[ they had kept some of his belongings in there at all times]again stayed some nights,went home at others.

After a few more weeks of this...one day,the bed manager came and said his room was needed for a man from oncology..........he would have to go into main ward.

Well..yet another stamping of his feet......but there was no other choice,so he and his wife decided to go home.
Hstill needed IV antibiotics........in the middle of the night or very early morning,so they just got up at thses times and drove to the hospital.

He is fine now,but because of his BUPA policy really does think he is above the rules of the NHS.there is no private hospital in the area he could have been admitted to with his illness.........
Mthoughts are that even though he was admitted via PRIVATE consultation from PRIVATE hospital...........yes he has paid into the NHS system many times over..........and because he was now in a NHS system,he should be made to obey those rules!!!
By the way,his PRIVATE consultant was then his NHS consultant,ultimately................CRACKERS IMO.

[tonkatojo]

You have all the right to differ and I respect your view.

There are certain checks and balances in NHS so 'consultants' do not abuse their position for personal financial gains.

The people who are paying private health insurance are also entitled to NHS treatment ( as the rest of the population )

I put a scenario to you to answer:

A patient seeks a private consultation and a consultant finds a life threatening condition requiring immediate treatment. The consultant knows that this treatment is available on NHS.What advice or course of action should this consultant take?
This is an ethical dilemma where providing that treatment on NHS will not give any financial gain to the consultant. If the consultant offers the same treatment to the patient in a private facility it will cost to patient but consultant will also gain financially.

My answer to that would be, the said consultant should not be doing both private/NHS work. Having said that, in your system the person should either get in the queue or cough up the cash.
My system would be where the GP would make the recommendation upon clinical need, see the consultant and take it from there, also based on clinical need but not jumping the queue, where non rich/mp/celebrity/royalty are treated equal.

[DOCTOR]

My answer to that would be, the said consultant should not be doing both private/NHS work.
Having said that, in your system the person should either get in the queue or cough up the cash.
My system would be where the GP would make the recommendation upon clinical need, see the consultant and take it from there, also based on clinical need but not jumping the queue, where non rich/mp/celebrity/royalty are treated equal.

Not all NHS consultants are doing private practices. It is only a minority who are doing this.

All emergency refferals from GPs are seen appropriately, some even the same week in NHS. The referral is marked appropriately by the GP. Routine, Soon, Urgent a form of queue jumping as you call it within the NHS.

The queue jumping you are mentioning is mostly for elective work ( not urgent. )

I give you an example :

If somebody needs knee or hip replacement they go on a waiting list in NHS. Some Orthopeadic Consultants do private practice in private hospitals.The patients pay for everything.

They are not operated in NHS by queue jumping.

The Consultants who are doing private practice are experts in their field. The GPs reffer patients to them on their repute and previous results. If you ban these high flyers from private practice there might be a risk of losing them to other countries where private practice is allowed. I am not saying that this is the ideal system but I am emphasising the facts.

[tonkatojo]

[QUOTE=DOCTOR;583984]Not all NHS consultants are doing private practices. It is only a minority who are doing this.

All emergency refferals from GPs are seen appropriately, some even the same week in NHS. The referral is marked appropriately by the GP. Routine, Soon, Urgent a form of queue jumping as you call it within the NHS.

The queue jumping you are mentioning is mostly for elective work ( not urgent. )

I give you an example :

If somebody needs knee or hip replacement they go on a waiting list in NHS. Some Orthopeadic Consultants do private practice in private hospitals.The patients pay for everything.

This is exactly my point, if there was no private work/hospitals then the consultants/surgeons would be more inclined to devote there time to more NHS work. Also the shortage of staff in NHS hospitals would be no more as the staff that are employed there would be more inclined to take up their vocation where they were probably trained in the first instance. Thus reducing waiting times for the masses not just the favoured in life.

You mentioned communism in a previous post. Well I do not advocate communism at all, the people who have bettered themselves and have the resources should be able and are entitled to spend on what they like, But to abuse the masses in advocating a two tear health system in my humble opinion is morally wrong.

[Alice in Blunderland]

This is exactly my point, if there was no private work/hospitals then the consultants/surgeons would be more inclined to devote there time to more NHS work.

As for stopping all private work and the staff will devote their time to the NHS.............
Dubai are currently recruiting Consultants and doctors for thier hospitals paying in excess of £250,000 tax free per year and offering up to £40,000 towards childrens education, free flights home, luxury accommodation and servants while working in the country, mmmmm now let me see it could be a hard choice NHS or something similar to what I described.

the shortage of staff in NHS hospitals would be no more as the staff that are employed there would be more inclined to take up their vocation where they were probably trained in the first instance. Thus reducing waiting times for the masses not just the favoured in life.

If only it were so simple the lack of major funding would be a huge obstacle. There is at this moment within the NHS budget constraints as in almost every other service.

[Margaret M.]

You mentioned communism in a previous post.

Were it not for the people in the higher tax brackets, the NHS would really be in a sorry state. In the U.S., the top 1% of taxpayers pay more taxes than the bottom 95% added together, I daresay it is similar in Britain. Surely those who have to pay more to support the NHS should be entitled to purchase better healthcare, if they so desire. We need to make sure our highest taxpayers stay healthy -- we need them to be working and paying their taxes!

[tonkatojo]

Were it not for the people in the higher tax brackets, the NHS would really be in a sorry state. In the U.S., the top 1% of taxpayers pay more taxes than the bottom 95% added together, I daresay it is similar in Britain. Surely those who have to pay more to support the NHS should be entitled to purchase better healthcare, if they so desire. We need to make sure our highest taxpayers stay healthy -- we need them to be working and paying their taxes!

If that is your opinion that is your opinion. I am entitled to mine.