Court Martial for Iraq Tour of Duty.

[Rheghead]

The Iraq war has been declared as illegal and a RAF doctor has acted upon his concience by refusing to go to Iraq.

The Nuremberg trials condemned Nazis to death or imprisonment even though they claimed a defence of 'following orders' instead of acting upon their concience. Isn't it a bit rich of the British forces to court martial one of their own for doing what the Nuremburg trials made clear what should a precedence in the concience of all military personnel?

[cuddlepop]

Are you sure you wanted to post such a comment,Remember someone is watching you ........
Before you misunderstand,i'm reall annoyed at how petty this forum has become,can the trusted members do something about this unfair sensorship before the forum becomes boring please

[kenimac1]

Surely Nuremberg condemned acts committed during a war and not the actual war. The Government of a Country govern and decide who to go to war with. It is for the legislature of the country to decide the war is illegal, not serving members of the armed forces. If every member of the armed forces chose which conflicts to serve or not serve in then we are ruling by committee - no good.

[pultneytooner]

The WAR, occupation by hostile, empire building forces is deemed illegal in the eyes of western law so I'd say the guy is quite right to stand by his principles and refuse to go there.

[JAWS]

The Iraq war has been declared as illegal and a RAF doctor has acted upon his concience by refusing to go to Iraq.

The Nuremberg trials condemned Nazis to death or imprisonment even though they claimed a defence of 'following orders' instead of acting upon their concience. Isn't it a bit rich of the British forces to court martial one of their own for doing what the Nuremburg trials made clear what should a precedence in the concience of all military personnel?

Did his conscience lead him to resigning his Commission, buying himself out or not taking his pay?
Had he been so much against the War in Iraq I would have thought he would have exercised his conscience long before anybody suggested he should go there.
There is a slight difference between the RAF Doctors behaviour and those of top Nazis organising and running Death Camps.

Has he made any attempt to be discharged from the RAF?

Who declared the War to be Illegal and when? I thought it was still a matter of conjecture.
Has there been an announcement from the UN which I have missed?

[fred]

Surely Nuremberg condemned acts committed during a war and not the actual war. The Government of a Country govern and decide who to go to war with. It is for the legislature of the country to decide the war is illegal, not serving members of the armed forces. If every member of the armed forces chose which conflicts to serve or not serve in then we are ruling by committee - no good.

It might not make sense but that is what we ruled in the London Charter of the International Military Tribunal. We said that "obeying orders" was not a defence and that it was a soldiers duty to refuse to obey an order they deemed illegal. We hung a few people on that basis even though if they had refused to obey an order they would probably have been shot.

So here we have a British doctor who not only considers the invasion of Iraq a war of aggression but knows that war crimes are being committed every day there, innocent civilians murdered, prisoners tortured, all the same sorts of things we tried Nazis for at Nuremburg, saying he doesn't want to be a part of it and getting a courtmartial.

Hypocricy in the extreme.

[pultneytooner]

Iraq didn't mount an attack against the U.S.A or any of their allies and the use of force wasn't authorised by the U.N security council.
No weapons of mass destruction have ever been found, quite a buzz word in the media, if you say something often enough someone might believe you.
British military commanders are bound by the Rome Statute establishing the International Criminal Court and they can be prosecuted for commiting war crimes and crimes against humanity as defined by the Geneva Conventions.

[2little2late]

Why do people join the British forces? They join expecting one day to fight in a conflict or war. They cannot expect to join the forces and not expect to go to war at any time. If they are told to go to war then they must obey the order.

If an ordinary civilian is in his/her place of employment and they are aseked to do a aprt of the job they really don't want to do they have to do it. It's just the same in the military exept on a larger scale.

All these people who wish to not go to war are cowards. Why join if they don't want to fight? Personally, I would discharge them from the forces with immediate effect. Nobody likes the thought of going to war, (Apart from Bush and Blair) but I'm afraid it's part of the soldiers contract. I don't care how they feel about it, whether they think it is illegal or not.

Until it has been categorically proved (which it never will be) that the war in Iraq is illegal then the soldiers have a duty to do whether they like it or not.
If it can be proved the war is illegal then all these thousands of soldiers would be able to sue their employers for sending them to war under false pretences. But then we are clutching at straws.

[Kenn]

I will be following this case with great interest.My understanding is that the officer in question had already done several foreign tours of duty and had not questioned the orders of his superiors until he was advised that his next tour would be to Iraq.
We all sit here and freely express our opinions about politics,books,music,religion and whatever else takes our fancy.Does the fact that the person in question is a member of the armed forces mean that he is no longer entitled to an opinion or a conscience? Does it make him a coward because he is prepared to stand up and be counted when he feels so strongly about the matter?
Others is the same situation have either been persuaded to resign their commisions or go quietly on their way.
We may not agree with him but surely he is worthy of respect for his moral stance on the matter.Ask yourself if you would be prepared to stand and be counted on an issue that that you felt was totally against all your principles before you condemn one that is prepared to fight not only for his country but his ideals as well.

[pultneytooner]

The war crimes alone being commited by coalition forces makes this an illegal war.

[2little2late]

The war crimes alone being commited by coalition forces makes this an illegal war.

War crimes don't make it an illegal war. War crimes are illegal.

[pultneytooner]

Did the U.S.A get a second U.N resolution?
Did Iraq have anything, provable, to do with 911?
Did they discover any weapons of mass destruction?
They wanted rid of one of the most vile dictators of our time, did that stop them supplying arms to Iraq in the war against Iran and did his crimes not matter then?
Are they not in the process of raping the wealth of Iraq, one of the most oil rich nations on earth?
They are guilty of war crimes but who are they responsible to?
Should they have gone to war without the agreement of the U.N?

[2little2late]

Did Iraq have anything, provable, to do with 911?

No, but this war wasn't about 911. Afghanistan is about 911

[pultneytooner]

What was the Iraq war about then and did the coalition seriously think that Bin laden orchestrated 911 and controlled Al Quaeda from a cave in Afghanistan?

[JAWS]

Did the U.S.A get a second U.N resolution?

They wanted rid of one of the most vile dictators of our time, did that stop them supplying arms to Iraq in the war against Iran and did his crimes not matter then?

There is a dispute over the question of whether a second resolution was needed. Has the UN ever decided if one was or was not required, or are they still sitting on their backsides producing nothing but hot air as usual?

Arms to Iraq? I didn't know America manufactired MiG Fighters, Scud Missiles or AK47s. I always thought they were produced by another Imperialist State.

Perhaps I've been labouring under a misconception about where they were produced all these years.
I must have been watching the wrong propaganda programmes.

Oh yes, oil. I almost forgot the oil.
Now, let me see, who were the main beneficiaries of the Oil for Food Programme?
Could the people doing most of the deals have been Russia and China?
And where was the banking being done under Oil for Food? Could that have been France?

Now let me think. Who were the main Countries blocking action against Iraq?
Of course, I couldn't possibly believe that they would put their own self interest above all else.

I wonder if Saddam got his MiGs back from Iran after the first Gulf War?

[fred]

No, but this war wasn't about 911. Afghanistan is about 911

That's what Bush says but then he's a liar and not even a good one at that.

George Bush, Cleveland, 20th March 2006:

"First-just if I might correct a misperception, I don't think we ever said, at least I know I didn't say that there was a direct connection between September 11th and Saddam Hussein."

George Bush, State of the Union Address, 2003:

"Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of al-Qaeda."

[pultneytooner]

Arms to Iraq? I didn't know America manufactired MiG Fighters, Scud Missiles or AK47s. I always thought they were produced by another Imperialist State.

Perhaps I've been labouring under a misconception about where they were produced all these years.
I must have been watching the wrong propaganda programmes.
I wonder if Saddam got his MiGs back from Iran after the first Gulf War?

Did I say that mig fighters (although the mig29 is marketed all over the world), scuds or ak47's were produced by America?
You must of been reading another post or were you just trying to denegrade mine?
From about 1975, 24 American companies are known to have contributed to Iraqs in terms of conventional weapons and technical knowhow.
Does Russia make defender helicopters or huey helicopters and howitzers?
Was it the K.G.B or the C.I.A that gave Iraq the intelligence reports needed for their mustard gas attacks on Iranian troops?
Was it Russia or the USA that was the only country not to sign a security council resolution condemning Iraqs use of chemical weapons?
Was it the Russian or American department of commerce that approved the shipping of weapons grade botulin poison to Iraq?
The oil thing, of course america wasn't interested in the oil thing they just had a selfless need to give the iraqi people freedom from oppression and a better way of life.
Many naive people actualy believe that nonsense.

[fred]

There is a dispute over the question of whether a second resolution was needed. Has the UN ever decided if one was or was not required, or are they still sitting on their backsides producing nothing but hot air as usual?

No there is no dispute, the UN Secretary General has stated that the invasion was illegal. Not only that but a leaked memo from July 2002 shows that the government knew it was illegal.

The Foreign Secretary said he would discuss this with Colin Powell this week. It seemed clear that Bush had made up his mind to take military action, even if the timing was not yet decided. But the case was thin. Saddam was not threatening his neighbours, and his WMD capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea or Iran. We should work up a plan for an ultimatum to Saddam to allow back in the UN weapons inspectors. This would also help with the legal justification for the use of force.

The Attorney-General said that the desire for regime change was not a legal base for military action. There were three possible legal bases: self-defence, humanitarian intervention, or UNSC authorisation. The first and second could not be the base in this case. Relying on UNSCR 1205 of three years ago would be difficult. The situation might of course change.

[fred]

The oil thing, of course america wasn't interested in the oil thing they just had a selfless need to give the iraqi people freedom from oppression and a better way of life.
Many naive people actualy believe that nonsense.

Operation Irqi Liberation.

[sjwahwah]

funny how weeks before 911 the British Army made it's largest deployment (40,000) since the falklands and nobody knew about it nor do you ever hear much about it now... what were they doing there?

this fella is quite right... I support his decision not to be part of this mess.