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Thread: Afghanistan

  1. #1
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    Default Afghanistan

    How will the deaths of British soldiers that are deployed in Afghanistan benefit me?

    The PM said I should pay gratitude but what have I received?
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

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    We might benefit along with the rest of the world if the poppy fields are eradicted.
    We might benefit if The Talyban can be stopped from spreading their pernicious warped ideas of what Islam is.
    We could benefit in having a stable country where there has been nothing but turmoil for years.

    Did Mr Brown really use the word gratitude?
    I am not gratified by the loss of any life.

    I do have however a deap respect for those who put their lives on the line no matter whether the cause is just or not.

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    Rheghead. Hundreds of soldiers have given up their lives to support this cause (and I am not getting into an argument whether it is right or wrong just now) and you have the pure arrogance to ask how their deaths benefit YOU?

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    Rheghead; "How will the deaths of British soldiers that are deployed in Afghanistan benefit me? The PM said I should pay gratitude but what have I received?"
    Apart from being insensitive a few hours after 8 dead squaddies were bought back to UK, it might well show naivety of someone safely cocooned in rural Caithness, but being in mind; "It is vital to the UK that Afghanistan becomes a stable and secure state that is able to suppress violent extremism within its borders. Britainís own security is at risk if we allow Afghanistan to become a safe haven for terrorists.*" it's a wee bit more dodgy in the UK's capital, IF by taking on the terrorist in their own country may well stop a single death in UK I'm all for it. People may not be aware but the vast majority of Taliban are not Afghanis but foreigners (a little bit below ref 'our own' killers).
    So Rheghead IF you do venture down to the big city your safety could well be down to the British Soldiers in Afghan, if, during fighting there, does result in their deaths.. well, work it out....

    Incidentally I have a son who's off to Afghan for his third tour..

    http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/fco-in-action/uk-in-afghanistan/why-we're-in-afghanistan/

    1.Two of the British bombers responsible for last year's July 7th attacks in London received training at al-Qaida camps, the deputy leader of the terror network has claimed. Ayman al-Zawahiri said Shezad Tanweer and Mohammad Sidique Khan both visited "bases of the Qaida al-Jihad" seeking "martyrdom", according to a video posted on the internet yesterday.
    2.A man accused of a scouting trip for the 7 July 2005 suicide bombers has admitted he went to the Afghan frontline to train for jihad.
    Leeds man Waheed Ali said he trained with bomber Mohammad Siddique Khan in 2001 but was not part of his plot. The pair spent months in Kashmir and Afghanistan believing it was their duty to fight alongside oppressed Muslims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    How will the deaths of British soldiers that are deployed in Afghanistan benefit me?

    The PM said I should pay gratitude but what have I received?
    You have received a continued freedom and safety to come on here and post such comments.

    I'm not going to slag someone off for making a comment like that. I do not understand the thought behind it but it is still your perogative to think it and indeed, say it.

    I come from a forces family, whether it be the Police Force, the RAF or the Navy.
    If it wasn't for people willing to put their lives on the line to protect this country and others, you probably would not have the freedoms and safety that we take for granted.
    I don't necessarily agree with what is being asked of our forces right now but I sure can accept that they're simply doing as they're ordered and I can definitely appreciate and be grateful for the job they do.

    Would you prefer it if we were all forced to enlist again?????
    Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by porshiepoo View Post
    You have received a continued freedom and safety to come on here and post such comments.

    I'm not going to slag someone off for making a comment like that. I do not understand the thought behind it but it is still your perogative to think it and indeed, say it.

    I come from a forces family, whether it be the Police Force, the RAF or the Navy.
    If it wasn't for people willing to put their lives on the line to protect this country and others, you probably would not have the freedoms and safety that we take for granted.
    I don't necessarily agree with what is being asked of our forces right now but I sure can accept that they're simply doing as they're ordered and I can definitely appreciate and be grateful for the job they do.

    Would you prefer it if we were all forced to enlist again?????
    2/3/4 have it all correct, as for forced enlistment that could be a good idea,it would get some form of national pride installed again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    How will the deaths of British soldiers that are deployed in Afghanistan benefit me?

    The PM said I should pay gratitude but what have I received?

    Our Prime Minister is an idiot though he cant connect with the Nation, what he should of said is that we should be very PROUD of our soldiers on Afghanistan who are putting their lives on the line in a foreign land.

    The war there does no threaten the lives of British Citizens here and it is not a war of defence, but we should be proud of them and have respect for the soldiers lost.

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    It is a fact that prior to armed conflict in Afghanistan we had no Muslimist terrorism in the UK, now it is rife. So the notion that the troops are making the UK a safer place seems a bit stupid, no?

    Also, the Taliban were actually stopping farmers from growing poppies until they quickly realised that the crops could make them money to fight troops. Again, it seems a bit silly.

    I have a nephew who is going to Afghan next year, would he be safer if we were at war with the Taliban or at peace with them?
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

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    It is a fact that prior to armed conflict in Afghanistan we had no Muslimist terrorism in the UK, now it is rife. So the notion that the troops are making the UK a safer place seems a bit stupid, no? Uhh? how so very parochial! - it's bigger than Reay, Rheggie, it's a threat to the world. ISAF has 42 nations as of 13 March 2009 - a bit of lateral thinking might help.

    Also, the Taliban were actually stopping farmers from growing poppies until they quickly realised that the crops could make them money to fight troops. Again, it seems a bit silly. So, Taliban stops farmers growing poppies, Hmm right, so they'll have to get their weapons from Pakistan/Iran?

    I have a nephew who is going to Afghan next year, would he be safer if we were at war with the Taliban or at peace with them? So this would stop them being a training camp for fundamentalist to go out into the world? how naive, sounds something like the 60's: 'better red than dead then'?

    Never mind.

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    Terrorism RIFE in the United Kingdom?
    Think I must be living in a different country.
    There were more terrorist acts by the IRA/ Real IRA than have ever been comitted in the name of Islam.
    No terror prior to the Afghan war?
    Tell that to the people of Lockerbie who are still suffering.

  11. #11
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    This war is about differing ideologies. Since when has someone changed their ideology by having a gun pointed at them or dropping a bomb on their families? Would it change your mind? I'll tell you it will only harden your resolve. So why should we be arrogant to think other cultures can be stamped out of existence? I think we are being belligerent.

    Afghanistan only fell to insurgents because it could not defend its internal security by itself. A little lateral thinking only suggests that the Taliban and Al Qaeda is only a threat to the UK if we don't concentrate our forces on own soil from attack from abroad and from within. They'd be a lot safer...
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

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    First off, Rheggers, I think you've been unfairly jumped on by a couple of posters for asking a very valid question. An unpalatable question to some, but still valid.

    However, we are where we are regarding Afghanistan and Islamic extremism.

    Pulling all the troops back to British soil wouldn't make one bit of difference. Simply because terrorists units will always try to operate in a manner that makes their discovery difficult for 'regular' troops. Goes without saying, really.

    You could have a 'ring of steel' around every airport, rail and bus station in Britain. Tanks on every street corner.
    This would not stop young British men with their minds set alight by the fires of extremism from coming back from 'visiting relatives' in Pakistan or wherever and then going to ground as trained. It will not stop extremists preaching hatred and violence wrapped up in semi-religious rhetoric all over Britain.

    Snuff out the source and you will eventually snuff out the problem, but the real question lies over whether we can snuff out that source or not.

    At the moment, I don't think we can..........

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    Quote Originally Posted by northener View Post
    Snuff out the source and you will eventually snuff out the problem, but the real question lies over whether we can snuff out that source or not.

    At the moment, I don't think we can..........
    Not when the worst terrorists are the USA and the UK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gleber2 View Post
    Not when the worst terrorists are the USA and the UK.
    Please note I did not say what I thought 'the source' was.........

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    "Since when has someone changed their ideology by having a gun pointed at them or dropping a bomb on their families?" Germany?

    "Not when the worst terrorists are the USA and the UK." Is Fred back?

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    In 1979 when the USSR invaded Afghanistan under the guise of forming a stable Afghan Government (Sound familiar anyone?), we never lifted a finger to help them do it and we revelled in the fact that we knew that it was an unwinnable war because of terrain and mindset, and the USSR did eventually pull out with their tail between their legs. And here we are making the same mistakes, do we never learn from history?

    If the world's super powers can't intervene to create peace then nobody can except the Afghans themselves. And counter-intuitively, an Islamic fundamental theocracy can't be such a bad thing IF they are left alone to be such. Why do we have to have everywhere that has to be the same with all westernised trappings?

    They'll only terrorise us on our streets so long as we have our troops on Islamic soil because our Government deems it necessary to stabilise the middle eastern region because of guaranteeing supplies of oil to the west. We can take away their influence from under the Saudiand Iraqi feet by simply going carbon neutral etc.
    Last edited by Rheghead; 15-Jul-09 at 16:07.
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by northener View Post
    Please note I did not say what I thought 'the source' was.........
    Point taken!

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    It is a fact that prior to armed conflict in Afghanistan we had no Muslimist terrorism in the UK, now it is rife. So the notion that the troops are making the UK a safer place seems a bit stupid, no?
    The US and UK went into Afghanistan after the September 11th attacks, when 67 British people were killed. Whilst there may not have been outright Muslim terrorism before that date within the UK, the UK was a breeding ground for their extremist views. Our 'free-speech for all' ideology let these people recruit, train and educate, sorry brainwash, potential terrorists. These operations are planned for years. They didn't just wake up a few days after the invasion of Afghanistan and say, 'Alright chaps, let's hit the Brits in retaliation'.

    The War in Afghanistan, which began on October 7, 2001 as the U.S. military operation Operation Enduring Freedom, was launched by the United States with the United Kingdom in response to the September 11 attacks. The stated aim of the invasion was to find the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden and other high-ranking al-Qaeda members and put them on trial, to destroy the whole organization of al-Qaeda, and to remove the Taliban regime which supported and gave safe harbor to al-Qaeda.[citation needed] United States' Bush Doctrine stated that, as policy, it would not distinguish between terrorist organisations and nations or governments that harbor them.

    Another post mentioned the IRA in Northern Ireland. Great Britain has experienced terrorism for many years and experience has shown that although it may be a long process and there may be many tragic and possibly preventable deaths, that you can't let these terrorists get a free rein. The IRA were on a different scale as they had a sense of self-preservation in that they tried to dump their bombs and get out, the Muslim terrorists prefer to blow themselves up too, in higher casualty areas. The September 11th attacks killed nearly 3000 people in one day, the Troubles killed approx. 3500 over 32 years (Republican, Loyalist and Security Force blame combined). I am sure that plenty of us sat back in the '80s and thought that it was a waste of time having the British Army in Northern Ireland, but it was a necessary process and agreement was reached in the end, albeit there are occasional incidents even to this day. I quite agree that I can't see where the current conflict in Afghanistan will go. However, the British Government can't just sit back and see what happens, they have to try and stamp out these extremists, for our own security and also, we have a duty as we have allowed these extremists to breed their hatred at the taxpayers' expense in the safety of the UK for too long.
    Last edited by LMS; 15-Jul-09 at 16:38. Reason: Added detail

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    Quote Originally Posted by bekisman View Post
    "Since when has someone changed their ideology by having a gun pointed at them or dropping a bomb on their families?" Germany?
    Not even them. They have secured German influence and trade politically without using military or changing religions.

    If we accept that this conflict is impossible to win our objective, then which is better before we have to pull out, the loss of casualties that have already been sustained or hundreds perhaps thousands more? Will that be the cost of our Government's loss of face before the inevitable happens?
    Last edited by Rheghead; 15-Jul-09 at 17:14.
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  20. #20
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    I was thinking something similar yesterday after reading a letter in the paper from a woman demanding our troops be brought home.
    I wonder how many people during WW2 wanted GB not to fight and to bring all armed forces personnel home. How many people NOW think us fighting in WW2 was a mistake?

    Then and now we are standing up for people who cannot or are not allowed to stand up for themselves. Yes people who join the forces know there is a chance or conflict etc, but it is still a horrible sad thing when they do die in conflict.
    People are quick to moan and criticise, but how does the saying go? Don't judge someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes.
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