Tail docking ban?

[buggyracer]

I for one feel this proposed ban on docking dogs tails is ridiculous, working dogs with un-docked tails can suffer horrific damage whilst working in heavy cover, and how the Government will police this law remains to be seen, what are other peoples opinions on this issue??

[jac1791]

i think people that dock puppys at home should be jailed - if its a working dog - yes i think a vet and only a vet should do it!

[brandy]

i agree if it is for health and saftey reasons by all means ... but just for the way it looks never and should be preformed by the vet

[buggyracer]

I agree it should be performed by a vet or a trained specialist, but i think the vets up here stopped doing it a few years ago now? can anyone confirm this??

[crashbandicoot1979]

Completely agree with brandy - as long as it is for health and safety reasons, not cosmetic reasons, and as long as it is done by a vet, then fine, Not sure if the vets up here still do it but I have heard of vets that refuse to do it. I can't imagine how the government will enforce this. I can understand banning docking for cosmetic reasons but then it will be hard to distinguish between those that are docked for this reason and those that are docked for safety reasons.

[MadPict]

This is a highly emotive issue.
The Royal Cllege of Veterinary Surgeons has clear guidelines on tail docking -

Leading Counsel has advised:

1.Docking, which may be defined as the amputation of the whole or part of a dog's tail has, since July 1993, been illegal under UK law, if performed by a lay person.

2.The Royal College has for many years been firmly opposed to the docking of dogs' tails, whatever the age of the dog, by anyone, unless it can be shown truly to be required for therapeutic or truly prophylactic reasons.

3.Docking cannot be defined as prophylactic unless it is undertaken for the necessary protection of the given dog from risks to that dog of disease or of injury which is likely to arise in the future from the retention of an entire tail. The test of likelihood is whether or not such outcome will probably arise in the case of that dog if it is not docked. Faecal soiling in the dog is not for this purpose a disease or injury, and its purported prevention by surgical means cannot be justified.

4.Similarly, docking cannot be described as prophylactic if it is undertaken merely on request, or just because the dog is of a particular breed, type or conformation. Council considers that such docking is unethical.

5.Docking a dog's tail for reasons which are other than truly therapeutic or prophylactic is capable of amounting to conduct disgraceful in a professional respect. In the event of disciplinary proceedings being brought in respect of tail docking, it shall be open to the RCVS by evidence to prove, and to the Disciplinary Committee on such evidence to find, that any therapeutic or prophylactic justification advanced for the docking in question is without substance. If such a finding is made, the Disciplinary Committee may proceed to consider and to decide whether in the circumstances the veterinary surgeon who undertook that docking knew, or ought to have known, that such purported justification is without substance.

6.For the avoidance of any doubt, any instance of tail docking which is found to have been undertaken for reasons which were not truly therapeutic or prophylactic will necessarily constitute an unacceptable mutilation of the dog, which, if carried out by a veterinary surgeon who knew or ought to have known of the lack of true justification, would almost certainly be considered to be conduct disgraceful in a professional respect.

The RSPCA is quite clear about tail docking -

Docking is a surgical amputation, which involves cutting or crushing a puppy's skin, muscles, up to seven pairs of nerves, and bone and cartilage - and is performed without anaesthetic when pups are just three to five days old. At this age they can feel pain, and research indicates they do so at a greater intensity than adult dogs because the ability to suppress pain develops with age and experience.

Why dock?
Those in favour of docking often suggest the procedure is done to prevent tail damage in gundogs and working dogs, yet no one can predict that a dog will ever injure its tail severely enough to warrant an amputation. There can also never be a guarantee that a puppy will become a gundog, so an exemption would be unenforceable and would make no sense from an animal welfare point of view.

Docking has become standard in certain dog breeds regardless of whether the individual puppy becomes a pet or ever actually works. Springer spaniels and English setters, for example, have similar long coats and tails and both are used as gundogs; yet only spaniels are docked. The tails of German shepherds, widely used by the police, and Labradors, used for retrieval and as guide dogs for the blind, are not docked.

"There is no evidence that some dogs have more sensitive tails or are more prone to damaging their tails than others," said the RSPCA's chief veterinary adviser, Tim Miles. "This simple fact demolishes the argument that some 'working' breeds, such as spaniels and pointers, should still have their tails amputated as puppies, when the accepted ethical view is that other breeds' tails should no longer be docked."

The British Veterinary Association states -

The BVA and BSAVA have been campaigning against the non-therapeutic docking of puppies’ tails since the sixties because it believes that it is not in the animal’s best interests. In fact:

there is good evidence to show that the act of docking causes pain;
there is some evidence to show that pain in neonates is enhanced compared to adults;
a dog’s tail is a vital form of canine expression and an important means of communication with other dogs and other species;
the removal of the tail may induce or exacerbate other medical conditions such as incontinence and perineal hernia in bitches.
Under the recently published Animal Welfare Bill (England and Wales) and the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Bill tail docking is considered to be a mutilation. There is however concern that tail docking may be permitted by way of an exemptions clause in secondary legislation. Indeed the Defra Minister Ben Bradshaw has verbally referred to Parliament having a free vote on the subject. This provides an ideal opportunity for veterinary surgeons and concerned members of the public to lobby their MPs urging them to support a complete ban on the non-therapeutic (cosmetic or prophylactic) docking of dogs’ tails.

It is, of course, also important that there is no discrepancy between the Scottish, English and Welsh legislation if we are to avoid neonatal puppies being transported considerable distances to have their tails docked.

The Scottish SPCA's view on the subject -

Scottish SPCA Inspectors have received reports from a number of vets regarding the high percentage of dogs coming through their surgeries with tails that have been docked.

An alarming fact is that many people are unaware that tail docking is now an illegal act in the UK, if carried out by anyone other than a registered veterinary surgeon. Even then, a vet should only remove a dog's tail for therapeutic or prophylactic reasons. In other words, dogs should not have their tails docked for purely cosmetic reasons (such as to comply with any breed standards).

Tail docking involves the shortening of an animal's tail a few days after birth, by amputation or banding, without the use of anaesthetic.

Senior Inspector Mark Lumgair said: "Our concern is that people are apparently unaware that tail docking is prohibited under the Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966 (Schedule 3 Amendment 1993). One of the main problems is that certain breeds continue to be recognised without tails by the Kennel Club, such as Boxers and Jack Russells. Dogs with full tails should be considered the norm.

"Several vets have expressed concern at the number of people who attend their surgeries and own dogs with docked tails. People seem to be unaware that this procedure should not be carried out automatically just because of the breed type."

The subject of tail docking is a contentious issue.

I am totally opposed to docking. All these organisations which are responsible for the welfare of animals are opposed to tail docking. Do you think that a handful of people who use dogs as a tool are more right than the professional?
I am disgusted that tail docking is still carried out to meet breed standards and just watching Crufts this year it was obvious the Kennel Club has not taken on board that docking is illegal now. All docked breeds were there sans tails....

Would you amputate the little finger on each hand of your child when it was hours old? After all, do you need your little finger?........

[brandy]

actually a dog does depend on its tail for balance.. but sometimes they do need them docked.. again for health and saftey reasons..

[Joefitz]

I have worked with pointers, setters, Jacks and spaniels my entire life, in both the gorse and thorn bushes of Scotland, and the brambles cactus and locust bushes here in the USA. Never had a dog hang up, or cut, or trapped. Bunch of damn silly nonsense, there is absolutely NO need to dock!!!

[MadPict]

actually a dog does depend on its tail for balance.. but sometimes they do need them docked.. again for health and saftey reasons..

Yes, a dog also needs it's tail to express emotions. Waggy tail = happy dog. Tail between legs = scared dog. It's tail is one of it's main means of communicating to other dogs as well as us humans - or inhumans if you believe in mutilating puppies barely out of their mothers wombs. What a welcome for "man's best friend. "Lop it's tail off Charlie, this 'un's maybe going to be a workin' dawg..."

The rest of your post is balderdash and piffle. What "health and safety reasons"? Read the post by "Joefitz" - never had a dog injure it's tail.

So you're saying that just in case a dog injures it's tail that is proper grounds to dock ALL "working" dogs tails?

So, while we're at it - why not crop it's ears too - most gundogs have long hanging ears, better discard them as well just in case they catch them on brambles.....

[brandy]

no im saying that if a dog breaks its tail or has nerve damage or any other injury like that.. it is for the dogs benifit to have its tail removed. i do not belive in docking just for the sake of it.. but have had dogs with docked tails in the past.. but tail was removed for medical reasons..
im all for banning of all non essential docking..
ive never had a working dog so do not know why they would need their tails docked.. the only kind of working dog i could see needing docking would be rescue dogs that go in to dangerous sits. but then again.. tail makes for better balance and just as likley to get a leg caught as a tail.. so dont know.. i just dont know enough about working dogs to have an oppinion on the ins and outs..

[buggyracer]

So when are they going to ban circumcision? after all it causes pain to a new born baby?

From the council of dock breeds site-

There are over fifty breeds of dog, which have had their tails docked, since the inception of the breed. The original reason for docking some breeds is well documented, for some, the reasons have been lost over the fullness of time. The vast majority of breeders and prospective puppy purchasers continue to want these breeds docked for a variety of reasons. Many reasons are given for the different breeds and range from the need to protect certain breeds from tail damage, for hygiene reasons, to protect breed standards, to ensure that puppies can be sold or exported.

Tails are normally docked at 2 to 5 days of age without anaesthetic being used. When carried out correctly, the procedure causes no more than momentary discomfort since the neonate puppy does not have a fully developed nervous system. When the pup is placed back with its littermates, it quickly falls asleep or starts feeding from mum again. This is in contrast to a puppy in pain, who would exhibit continuous crying, restlessness, crawl around in pointless circles and fail to suckle.

The older the animal, the larger the tail, and therefore the more traumatic the procedure becomes. If the puppy is more than 10 days old, the procedure should only be performed under anaesthesia, preferably not before 8 weeks of age. Many undocked adult animals undergo the tail docking procedure out of necessity when their tail has been traumatised.



Damage as a result of an un-docked tail.
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[Chillie]

Yes, a dog also needs it's tail to express emotions. Waggy tail = happy dog. Tail between legs = scared dog. It's tail is one of it's main means of communicating to other dogs as well as us humans - or inhumans if you believe in mutilating puppies barely out of their mothers wombs. What a welcome for "man's best friend. "Lop it's tail off Charlie, this 'un's maybe going to be a workin' dawg..."

The rest of your post is balderdash and piffle. What "health and safety reasons"? Read the post by "Joefitz" - never had a dog injure it's tail.

So you're saying that just in case a dog injures it's tail that is proper grounds to dock ALL "working" dogs tails?

So, while we're at it - why not crop it's ears too - most gundogs have long hanging ears, better discard them as well just in case they catch them on brambles.....

I agree with madpict on this one

what health and safety reasons i've never heard such rubbish.

[Chillie]

So when are they going to ban circumcision? after all it causes pain to a new born baby?

A baby is giving anasthetic and an injection to numb the pain.



Tails are normally docked at 2 to 5 days of age without anaesthetic being used.

This is cruel docking an animals tail without anasthetic.

[MadPict]

So when are they going to ban circumcision? after all it causes pain to a new born baby?

If I recall correctly, though NOT from personal experience, during the circumcision as practiced by the Jewish faith, and other religions which carry out this act, the child is not anesthetised and endures a fair amount of pain. I would expect that circumcision carried out for medical reasons in hospital would involve an anesthetic.

From the council of dock breeds site-

There are over fifty breeds of dog, which have had their tails docked, since the inception of the breed. The original reason for docking some breeds is well documented, for some, the reasons have been lost over the fullness of time. The vast majority of breeders and prospective puppy purchasers continue to want these breeds docked for a variety of reasons. Many reasons are given for the different breeds and range from the need to protect certain breeds from tail damage, for hygiene reasons, to protect breed standards, to ensure that puppies can be sold or exported.

Tails are normally docked at 2 to 5 days of age without anaesthetic being used. When carried out correctly, the procedure causes no more than momentary discomfort since the neonate puppy does not have a fully developed nervous system. When the pup is placed back with its littermates, it quickly falls asleep or starts feeding from mum again. This is in contrast to a puppy in pain, who would exhibit continuous crying, restlessness, crawl around in pointless circles and fail to suckle.

The older the animal, the larger the tail, and therefore the more traumatic the procedure becomes. If the puppy is more than 10 days old, the procedure should only be performed under anaesthesia, preferably not before 8 weeks of age. Many undocked adult animals undergo the tail docking procedure out of necessity when their tail has been traumatised......

Well of course they are going to say that - their pockets will suffer when people won't want to buy puppies that they have bred with tails.

Many reasons are given for the different breeds and range from the need to protect certain breeds from tail damage, for hygiene reasons, to protect breed standards, to ensure that puppies can be sold or exported.

Tail damage - how many dogs would really suffer damage to their tails during their working life? So what about the ones that never do a days work? How can there be justification for docking their tails?

Hygiene reasons - if you need to cut of their tail to ensure they remain hygenic then that says a lot about the care you lavish on your dog. You should be checking the dog daily for anything which could cause problems. If they get a dirty back end you clean it for them. From the RCVS - "Faecal soiling in the dog is not for this purpose a disease or injury, and its purported prevention by surgical means cannot be justified.".....Or perhaps the owners think that Andrex Toilet paper is meant for dogs....

Protect Breed Standards - they mean to protect the wad in their pocket. The breed standards are artificial - most modern breeds have been bred to the point of death. They either suffer congenital heart problems, breathing problems, hip problems, sight problems, all in the glorious name of breed standards.

Sale/export of puppies - ££££££££ again. If the KC got off its big fat tail end and actually did something GOOD for breeds instead of encouraging breeders to continue with the mutation of the breed from the origin of the dog then this would not even enter into the equation....


The council of dock breeds have to defend this barbaric practice just as the fox hunting fraternity state that hunting with dogs is the most efficient way of keeping fox numbers down (yet many hunts admit they only catch a fox every now and then). Death from traffic is a far more 'efficient' way of keeping fox numbers down.

Just as farmers claim that the badger population needs culling to get rid of bovine TB, yet the biggest cause of spread of the disease are the farmers themselves transporting BTB infected cattle around the country.

So the people behind the calls to keep tail docking will bleat on how it is necessary.......

[badger]

Delighted to see all this evidence against docking as I was not sure whether to believe all the propaganda put out about "working" dogs but was not happy about it as could not see how it could not be incredibly cruel. The Kennel Club is a dreadful organisation and needs to be sorted out as so much damage is done by over-breeding. If dogs weren't meant to have tails they would not be born with them.

[_Ju_]

I for one feel this proposed ban on docking dogs tails is ridiculous, working dogs with un-docked tails can suffer horrific damage whilst working in heavy cover, and how the Government will police this law remains to be seen, what are other peoples opinions on this issue??

How can I put this in a diplomatic and pleasant way??? Working dogs with tails suffering horrific damage is an URBAN MYTH. On the other hand, new born puppies having their tails cut off will guarantee pain and suffering in 100% of cases. And on ocassion worse situations of infection and/or (albeit rarely) death.

[_Ju_]

no im saying that if a dog breaks its tail or has nerve damage or any other injury like that.. it is for the dogs benifit to have its tail removed. i do not belive in docking just for the sake of it.. but have had dogs with docked tails in the past.. but tail was removed for medical reasons..
..

I think there is confusion between docking (amputation at or near birth for aestetic or prophylatic reasons) and a medical reason for the amputation of a tail,such as fracture or as you say, nerve damage, etc.

Each are done under different circumtances and by a different means. In one there is use of an anestetic and surgical conditions are used. In another you use a scissor, some string as a garrot, a antiseptic and, if the puppy is unlucky, a local anestetic ( I say unlucky, because the local anestetic is very painful to administer in that area).

They are two distinct medical procedures.

[_Ju_]

Damage as a result of an un-docked tail.
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I see some blood mixed with water on the coat, on the leg of the dog..... the tail seems whole....please tell me what the damage is?

If you have a white dog with a wet coat and it bleeds onto that coat, you will see something very similair to this picture.

[_Ju_]

I see some blood mixed with water on the coat, on the leg of the dog..... the tail seems whole....please tell me what the damage is?

If you have a white dog with a wet coat and it bleeds onto that coat, you will see something very similair to this picture.

I think I see a slight granuloma on the tip of the tail..... granulomas take time to evolve and often have to do with the dog worrying the tail. That is a behavioral problem, individual to the dog. Not a "tail" problem. If there is a granuloma, this dog did not run through a gorse bush and rip his tail open on that day

[ice box]

I think it sad docking tales they came into this world with so why dock it unless it health and saftey reason even then iam not happy but some things have to be done but people that dock dogs tail should be jailed grrrrrrrrr