Caithness Map :: Links to Site Map Paying too much for broadband? Move to PlusNet broadband and save£££s. Free setup now available - terms apply. PlusNet broadband.  
Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: 'Perils' of TV dog experts

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Between Thurso and Wick
    Posts
    656

    Default 'Perils' of TV dog experts

    An article in the Telegraph ( www.telegraph.co.uk/health/petshealth) makes interesting reading.

    It would seem that nothing really beats a knowledgable and qualified dog trainer after all.
    Two things are infinite: the Universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the Universe.

    Einstein

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Caithness
    Posts
    979

    Default

    This is probably true, with some of the dog experts I've seen on TV.

    Then again there is Cesar Millan who I believe is the real deal. I think Cesar was a dog in a past life, because he just instinctively knows what to do. I don't think these "experts" should fault Cesar's methods.
    Last edited by Shabbychic; 24-May-09 at 12:28. Reason: spelling

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Between Thurso and Wick
    Posts
    656

    Default

    I suspect, Shabbychic, that these people might juist disagree with you.


    Dr. Nicholas Dodman, Director of Animal Behaviour Clinic at Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine said:

    “Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will only be transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is the public does not recognise the error of his ways"


    Dr. Dunbar think of Millan's methods?

    “He has nice dog skills, but from a scientific point of view, what he says is, well…different. Heaven forbid if anyone else tries his methods because a lot of what he does is not without danger.”Dr. Dunbar is very concerned that any television viewer who applies Millan's technique of the alpha rollover may get bitten by their dog. Dr. Dunbar appears to be voicing the words of National Geographic who say: “Don't try this at home”. Messages like this are flashed across the screen throughout Millan's show. So concerned are the American Humane Association as to Millan's methods being applied by the viewing public that they requested that National Geographic stop the show citing Millan's tactics as “inhumane, outdated and improper”.
    Two things are infinite: the Universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the Universe.

    Einstein

  4. #4

    Default

    An excellent article showing, at last, there is a bit of common sense somewhere.....Many times on the org I have read about owners of several dogs advocating the need to become the 'pack' leader..............No, I don't think so.
    A pack of dogs, be they wild or domestic work together as a team or a family and so it should be within our homes.
    Love them, be kind to them, nurture them and guide them away from harm to themselves and others.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Caithness
    Posts
    979

    Default

    Yes, I've read many of these 'Slatings of Cesar'. What gets me is the misquoting and false interpretations of what he is actually doing. The one I love is that his fans are mainly females who are taken in by his charisma. Oh yes, that's me.

    I not only watch the TV programme, but have read his books, which in my view, many of theses experts have not. I think a lot of it has to do with their methods are different from Cesar's, therefore he must be wrong, and also the fact he does not have a string of letters after his name.

    Anyway, they are entitled to their opinions, as am I, and I stand by my views on Cesar, charisma and all.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Halkirk/Shurrery
    Posts
    662

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by teenybash View Post
    An excellent article showing, at last, there is a bit of common sense somewhere.....Many times on the org I have read about owners of several dogs advocating the need to become the 'pack' leader..............No, I don't think so.
    Every pack needs a pack leader, otherwise it would not work. Dogs can not sit around a table and discuss options, neither can wolves or any other pack animal.
    However, pack leaders need to be kind and fair. A controlling leader who bullies the pack will steer a pack into trouble.
    A pack can only survive if the pack leader makes the right decisions and leads the pack in a way he is respected, otherwise he will soon be replaced by a disgruntled younger alpha male.

    Do domestic dogs need pack leaders? Yes they do, but they don't need people who shout at them, yank their leads or even kick them.

    A human pack leader needs to behave in a way their dog can respect them and be happy in their company!

    A pack leader protects and nurtures without being weak.

    It's an art most humans haven't mastered yet.

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
    Every pack needs a pack leader, otherwise it would not work. Dogs can not sit around a table and discuss options, neither can wolves or any other pack animal.
    However, pack leaders need to be kind and fair. A controlling leader who bullies the pack will steer a pack into trouble.
    A pack can only survive if the pack leader makes the right decisions and leads the pack in a way he is respected, otherwise he will soon be replaced by a disgruntled younger alpha male.

    Do domestic dogs need pack leaders? Yes they do, but they don't need people who shout at them, yank their leads or even kick them.

    A human pack leader needs to behave in a way their dog can respect them and be happy in their company!

    A pack leader protects and nurtures without being weak.

    It's an art most humans haven't mastered yet.
    Excellent and well put......and I agree with you. I have a dislike to the term 'pack' and using it to refer to a group of dogs living with humans as part of their family or team, such as working dogs.......though this is just a personal thing. I prefer to look on my dogs, past and present as part of my family and me the parent, for want of a better word.
    Looking after dogs and all their needs comes to some naturally while others are less sure and this is where the opening has been for some of these less that good 'dog handlers/trainers' to promote their methods via television.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Your nightmares!
    Posts
    3,381

    Default

    This is certainly one of those topics where many of us have different views and opinions.

    I myself use and have had immense success with Cesar's methods. I choose this method because it makes sense to me and has immediate results with no cruelty involved whatsoever.
    What we have to remember is that our lovable pooch is instinctively an animal, an animal that retains many of its ancestors wild instincts. To attempt to treat a dog in any way like we would a human is a recipe for disaster - instinct will out if the environment dictates that it can or it should. We see this all too often with dog attacks on humans.
    Our pooches instincts still tell it that we are a pack and that the pack has to have a stable pack 'leader' in order for its current members and all future ones to survive. If we cannot provide this critical environment then our cutey little pooch will appear to turn evil in an attempt to do what is necessary for the packs survival. Completely natural behaviour and pure instinct!

    Many people still do not have a clue that treating a dog as a human will lead to destructive and often lethal behaviour. The dog will simply be called a 'bad dog' that doesn't obey a single command, bites anyone who touches its food and will dominate all family members in small unseen ways. Disaster strikes and the dog is blamed.

    What the likes of Cesar et al provide for us is purely a theory. You cannot watch Cesar and fail to see the sense in what he says. He doesn't ill treat dogs, he doesn't hit, smack or abuse.
    What he is showing us is not dog 'training', that is what you get at the many classes that are available. What he shows us is a way to get results, have a healthy balanced pack and all by treating the dog as the animal first.

    Yes, there are many other trainers, including the likes of Dr Dunbar whose methods are based more along the lines of 'training' or food orientated.
    I have tried this method too with previous GSD's (in fact it was once the only method I knew of) and I can honestly say that compared to methods used by Cesar et al it simply pales in comparrisson. (For me).
    The results for me have been much quicker and longer lasting when treating my dogs as animals, understanding their instincts and needs and providing them with a stable pack leader.

    I do struggle sometimes with the likes of 'Dog Borstal'. The so called trainers there often encourage behaviour from owners which is just completely un necessary. Shouting seems common place and treated as acceptable training methods. Why? Why would anyone even want to attempt any kind of shouting, abusive training when there are other methods that get better results? Once someone has been 'taught' that shouting or squirting water at a barking dog is normal, it is very hard to train them to shut up and try calmer methods. (I know, I was one of them)

    The crux of this whole thing is that every owner needs to find a method that is acceptable to them and which gives the results that they are looking for. Hopefully that is a happy, healthy and stable dog and family life.
    Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain.

    http://thetenaciousgardener.blogspot.co.uk/

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Here and there
    Posts
    1,500

    Default

    I love Cesar. He understands dogs so well that I think he must have been a dog in a previous life. It is fascinating to see how quickly he identifies the problem and turns the situation around -- even with dogs that have been written off as impossible. There are way too many success stories including several high profile ones, for Cesar to be put in the same category as those who use questionable methods.

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by veekay View Post
    An article in the Telegraph ( www.telegraph.co.uk/health/petshealth) makes interesting reading.

    It would seem that nothing really beats a knowledgable and qualified dog trainer after all.

    A qualified person in any walk of life does not necessarily mean they are good at their job, just because they have piece of paper saying you can do something doesn't mean much sometimes.

    Experience counts for a lot, many people I know who don't have qualifications are very good at what they do, better sometimes than those with the 'magic' bit of paper.

    With animals you have to have the right attitude both with the animal and the owner.

    To me common sense dictates you don't hit or shout at an animal to make it do what you ask and any good trainer would know this, qualified or not!

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Between Thurso and Wick
    Posts
    656

    Default

    Couldn't agree more neepnipper, that is why I said knowledgeable and qualified. To me the best ( and probably only ) way to gain knowledge is to do whatever it is you are qualified in. Lets face it how many of us passed our driving test and only became good drivers from years of actually driving, It is training and then experience/knowledge that wins the day every time.
    Two things are infinite: the Universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the Universe.

    Einstein

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •