I'm trying to figure this one out ??

[squidge]

I for one have no problem helping those who are in need and are less fortunate or are just starting out in life .

And thats the important bit..... No one is suggesting that people who are milking the system should be given a free ride. Its the bit that allows people to get away with doing nothing all their lives and encouraging their children to do nothing that needs to be changed but hey... didn't we come in to this discussion here? Its not the fact that people need help but that they EXPECT it all done for them? What makes them like that - it isnt the benefit system per se it is other things as alice said in the post a wee while ago. In fact in my 20 years of experience i have found that there are far fewer true "wasters" than the man in the street or the Daily Mail would have us beleive.

I am no doubt already helping people through my taxes.

Isn't that my point though? You earn more therefore you are paying more in tax to help those who are less able, fortunate, or otherwise less well off than you.

and Yet my two girls will get no assistance because me and the wife worked our backsides off and are on good money.

nope its because you have enough residual income to be able to afford to help them yourself. people who earn less than you dont work less hard than you Im sure.

I am not "Lucky" I worked hard and got the job I wanted at the cost of not a few sacrifices. Nice to see that all that means is that I get no help while those who haven't paid in as much as me just complain about what I have left.

who is complaining about what you have left? I am sure you aren't suggesting that the sacrifices you made, and the hard work you did is more valuable than the sacrifices and the hard work the hospital cleaner made or the school janitor, or the classroom assistant or the road sweeper or other low paid jobs. You dont get help because you earn enough to not NEED help, people on low incomes get help because they NEED help otherwise there is no way their children could afford university.

And i think you ARE lucky.... lucky enough not to have had been seriously injured in your work, lucky enough to be healthy enough to be able to work, lucky enough to have a marriage that has weathered the storms that some marriages cant weather and lucky enough to earn a good wage. I dont begrudge you any of that in any way, i dont doubt that you worked hard and made sacrifices along the way but so did a lot of other people who now sit on incapacity benefit or as a single parent or in a low paid job. If i had my way ALL young people would get a free university education if they wanted it however I dont have my way. Therefore it is absolutely right that the support should go where it is needed most. Thats rightly to the children of the less well off. Betterthat way that to say " well im sorry you didnt apply yourself or work hard enough or make enough sacrifices to have the sort of job that pays you good wages so your children can pay the price for your lack of ambition by not being able to go to university".

[Mrs Bucket]

Some people have not got the ability or the luck if you dont like the system do something about it other than moan and whinge I am working and paying taxes and I choose to live in this country the alternative is to move

[thoms83]

i think the benefits system is pretty fair if anything theyve clamped down lately. ppl seem to forget that you only get something like £90 a week to live on. doesnt stretch that fair these days!

[Gene Hunt]

Squide,

Will you stop calling me "lucky" .. I only have one testicle. I am not that lucky. I resent your patronising tone and condescending attitude towards my position in life by claiming I am somehow "lucky" because I have what I have. My job and marriage are succesful because I work at it, damn hard. Both myself and my wife pay a higher percentage of our wages in Tax than most. Our reward for that is that we get nothing out of a system that we fund more than most. I see that as unlucky.

You talk as if everyone has an automatic right to go to University. It has to be earned, I did and I payed my own way through. You want every child to go to University but who is going to pay for it .. You ??, its all well and good volunteering the taxes of those of us who actually earn them isn't it ??, are you in the 40% Tax bracket by chance and funding your grand ideas through your efforts or are you just wanting to spend the taxes of others ??

Its a big bad world out there and not everyone will get to the Top. And you know what ??, if parents haven't worked hard enough, haven't had the ambition, haven't applied themselves or sacrificed enough to give their children the opportunities mine had then as far as I am concerned that is their fault. Mine didn't and I still made it because I worked my backside off, or do children need everything handed to them these days ?? Telling me that I have an obligation to make up for the shortcomings of other people is a non starter in my view.

People used to work for what they wanted. Now if they haven't got it they just claim it is someone elses job to provide it.

[thoms83]

Squide,

Our reward for that is that we get nothing out of a system that we fund more than most. I see that as unlucky.

right so your private healthcare then? when you go to the chemist you pay for your prescriptions (even though there free in wales)? kids all at private schools?

you get plenty out of the system. if your not happy in the 40% bracket then you could always move to dubai or monaco

[Alice in Blunderland]

i think the benefits system is pretty fair if anything theyve clamped down lately. ppl seem to forget that you only get something like £90 a week to live on. doesnt stretch that fair these days!

Thats maybe from one persons view.

When I was in receipt of benefits a good few years ago I was recieving on top of my part time wage around £1000 in benefits a month.This was not including family allowance and maintenance from my ex. Total all my monies up and in one month my income was over £2000.
I worked with someone who was a single parent with two children whose ex did not pay her maintenance for the kids and she earned too much to recieve any benefits.......... her take home pay was £1800. Now thats another one hard to get your head around.

[thoms83]

Thats maybe from one persons view.

When I was in receipt of benefits a good few years ago I was recieving on top of my part time wage around £1000 in benefits a month.This was not including family allowance and maintenance from my ex. Total all my monies up and in one month my income was over £2000.
I worked with someone who was a single parent with two children whose ex did not pay her maintenance for the kids and she earned too much to recieve any benefits.......... her take home pay was £1800. Now thats another one hard to get your head around.

im signing on in that case! nothin better than sitting around drinkin super lager and watchin jeremy kyle - beats workin for a living anyways!

not that im suggesting thats what you were doing tho lol

[Alice in Blunderland]

Another point on the subject off putting your kids through Further Education.
My earnings are a pittance in comparison to my husband who is in the 40% tax bracket and if this Goverment keeps it up he will soon be in the 50% bracket.

It is also the rule that its the income of the house the child is living in that is assessed for the child going to University not the income of the parents if they are seperated.

My husbands salary means that my oldest cannot recieve any benefits and should her dad not want to pay he doesnt have to although this is not the issue with me just another point to ponder. Truly we are willing to pay as this is for the benefit of the kids. I am not complaining just drawig attention to rules in place to make sure you pay if you can afford it for your children so should this not be applied in a wider area other than education

As with Gene Hunt my husband works very hard putting in, in excess of ninety hours some weeks in his work. He has instilled into the children a good attitude towards education and striving to do the best they can do and only time will tell if they take this on with them into life.

[maverick]

right so your private healthcare then? when you go to the chemist you pay for your prescriptions (even though there free in wales)? kids all at private schools?

you get plenty out of the system. if your not happy in the 40% bracket then you could always move to dubai or monaco

if every tax payer had to pay 40% tax that would be fair, its the system that is wrong, the harder you work the more you have to pay ,the system penalises you for hard work, free prescriptions are available to every one in Scotland and Wales as is education and the Health Service no matter how much you earn, people who are in the 10% - 20% tax band often qualify for family and working tax credits which allows them to apply and receive rent rebates and council tax rebates along with other benefits like free school meals for their children etc. People who are in the 40% tax band have to pay mortgages, full council tax, no rebates available no matter how many children you have. If every 40% tax payer cleared of to Monaco or Dubai who would be left to foot the bills then?

[squidge]

Squide,

Will you stop calling me "lucky" .. I only have one testicle. I am not that lucky. I resent your patronising tone and condescending attitude towards my position in life by claiming I am somehow "lucky" because I have what I have. My job and marriage are succesful because I work at it, damn hard. Both myself and my wife pay a higher percentage of our wages in Tax than most. Our reward for that is that we get nothing out of a system that we fund more than most. I see that as unlucky.

You talk as if everyone has an automatic right to go to University. It has to be earned, I did and I payed my own way through. You want every child to go to University but who is going to pay for it .. You ??, its all well and good volunteering the taxes of those of us who actually earn them isn't it ??, are you in the 40% Tax bracket by chance and funding your grand ideas through your efforts or are you just wanting to spend the taxes of others ??

Its a big bad world out there and not everyone will get to the Top. And you know what ??, if parents haven't worked hard enough, haven't had the ambition, haven't applied themselves or sacrificed enough to give their children the opportunities mine had then as far as I am concerned that is their fault. Mine didn't and I still made it because I worked my backside off, or do children need everything handed to them these days ?? Telling me that I have an obligation to make up for the shortcomings of other people is a non starter in my view.

How is calling someone lucky patronising???? what is absolutley patronising and actually quite insulting Gene is to suggest that you worked harder, sacrificed more to get where you are than someone who isnt earning enough to put them in a higher tax bracket. Your assumption that you are somehow so much better than other people is something i dont understand. As though a hospital cleaner or a care assistant somehow doesnt work as hard or have to sacrifice things to get where they are. Why on earth would you think that???? I think every child who has the ability and the work ethic and the desire to go to university should be able to go.

You ask about my personal circumstances ok here you go... i dont work - you know that very well - i stay at home and look after my sons. I am 45. I worked every day from leaving school at 18 until 18 months ago. I had a career that moved me across country and as a result of that I have been in the 40% tax bracket. I may very well be there again. I have also been on benefits after i threw the towel in on my marriage which i didnt care enough about apparently - according to you my compassionate friend - to work hard enough to save and which in ending my marriage meant the end of my career because i couldnt be a mum to my children and run all over the country so maybe you and other higher tax bracket earners dont have a monopoly on sacrifice. My husband earns a good wage so I will have to pay for my children should they choose university - just like you and Alice. They will have to get a job to support themselves and we will work it out because we can do that.

You dont get it though do you? I am not telling YOU - Mr Gene Hunt (or is that inspector?) that you are solely responsible for everyone. I am saying we Are ALL responsible for other people, for society, for equality of opportunity and i am saying that help should be there for people less fortunate because there are people who are less fortunate not who somehow failed because they couldnt be bothered. People who didnt have the breaks, didnt have the nouse, didnt have the health to do what you are doing and what i did for however many years - earn plenty cash so we dont NEED help. We cant all make it to the top - thank goodness for that eh!!!! Someone has to empty the bins but that isnt to do with not working hard enough. And just because WE dont need help it doesnt mean that we shouldnt give it to those who DO need it.

People used to work for what they wanted. Now if they haven't got it they just claim it is someone elses job to provide it.

And people used to look out for one another. Now as long as I'm all right Jack some look no further than their noses. Lets hope these people never have to find out what life is REALLY like when no matter how hard they work, how many sacrifices they make they cant find a cure for the cancer that means they have to stop work and rely on benefits, or they cant find a way to forgive their spouse when they have slapped them so hard they dont think they will ever hear properly again and they find themselves out on their ear with nothing but the clothes they stand up in and their children to look after.

[Gene Hunt]

How is calling someone lucky patronising???? what is absolutley patronising and actually quite insulting Gene is to suggest that you worked harder, sacrificed more to get where you are than someone who isnt earning enough to put them in a higher tax bracket. Your assumption that you are somehow so much better than other people is something i dont understand. As though a hospital cleaner or a care assistant somehow doesnt work as hard or have to sacrifice things to get where they are. Why on earth would you think that???? I think every child who has the ability and the work ethic and the desire to go to university should be able to go.

You ask about my personal circumstances ok here you go... i dont work - you know that very well - i stay at home and look after my sons. I am 45. I worked every day from leaving school at 18 until 18 months ago. I had a career that moved me across country and as a result of that I have been in the 40% tax bracket. I may very well be there again. I have also been on benefits after i threw the towel in on my marriage which i didnt care enough about apparently - according to you my compassionate friend - to work hard enough to save and which in ending my marriage meant the end of my career because i couldnt be a mum to my children and run all over the country so maybe you and other higher tax bracket earners dont have a monopoly on sacrifice. My husband earns a good wage so I will have to pay for my children should they choose university - just like you and Alice. They will have to get a job to support themselves and we will work it out because we can do that.

You dont get it though do you? I am not telling YOU - Mr Gene Hunt (or is that inspector?) that you are solely responsible for everyone. I am saying we Are ALL responsible for other people, for society, for equality of opportunity and i am saying that help should be there for people less fortunate because there are people who are less fortunate not who somehow failed because they couldnt be bothered. People who didnt have the breaks, didnt have the nouse, didnt have the health to do what you are doing and what i did for however many years - earn plenty cash so we dont NEED help. We cant all make it to the top - thank goodness for that eh!!!! Someone has to empty the bins but that isnt to do with not working hard enough. And just because WE dont need help it doesnt mean that we shouldnt give it to those who DO need it.



And people used to look out for one another. Now as long as I'm all right Jack some look no further than their noses. Lets hope these people never have to find out what life is REALLY like when no matter how hard they work, how many sacrifices they make they cant find a cure for the cancer that means they have to stop work and rely on benefits, or they cant find a way to forgive their spouse when they have slapped them so hard they dont think they will ever hear properly again and they find themselves out on their ear with nothing but the clothes they stand up in and their children to look after.

You should go on Jeremy Kyle with that.

And please .. quote up the parts of my posts where I say I work harder and sacrificed more than others. My point was based on your soap box proposal that those of us who fought our way to our goals somehow owe something to those who didn't get there for whatever reason. Well Boo Hoo. Life is tough and unfair and you dont always get what we want, is that really a shock for you ??, I certainly havent got everything I want out of life, who does ??

Bottom line is that its all well and good wanting something but how are we going to pay for it ?? .. that was my point. Well that and this attitude today that if you want something and cant manage it yourself that someone else should be responsible for making sure you get it.

And you seem to think I know you. You said I "know very well" you are not working and you didnt care enough about your marriage "according to me", and what do you mean by "just like you and Alice" .. .. I live in South Wales for the record. I think you have your wires crossed in a major way.

[squidge]

You should go on Jeremy Kyle with that.

These things happen to people Gene - they happen every day to ordinary people.

And please .. quote up the parts of my posts where I say I work harder and sacrificed more than others.

Thats how i interpreted these comments you made

My job and marriage are succesful because I work at it, damn hard. (and) ... if parents haven't worked hard enough, haven't had the ambition, haven't applied themselves or sacrificed enough to give their children the opportunities mine had then as far as I am concerned that is their fault (and )...my two girls will get no assistance because me and the wife worked our backsides off and are on good money.

The inference appeared to be that you have worked harder and made more sacrifices than others who dont earn as much as you

My point was based on your soap box proposal that those of us who fought our way to our goals somehow owe something to those who didn't get there for whatever reason. Well Boo Hoo. Life is tough and unfair and you dont always get what we want, is that really a shock for you ??, I certainly havent got everything I want out of life, who does ??

My soap box proposal is not that we owe things to people but that we owe to society in general the chance for equality of opportunity. As i said - I would prefer free higher education for all but thats not available. Therefore in this context- as an alternative to higher education being only available to those who can afford to pay I beleive that help for those who need it should be available and those of us who can pay should pay.

Bottom line is that its all well and good wanting something but how are we going to pay for it ?? .. that was my point. Well that and this attitude today that if you want something and cant manage it yourself that someone else should be responsible for making sure you get it.

We pay for it through our taxes - we cant afford free higher education for all whichis why we means test the help available to ensure that those in NEED get it. No one should be denied an education ( which is the subject we are discussing) because they cant afford it or their parents are on national minimum wage and cant support them.

And you seem to think I know you. You said I "know very well" you are not working and you didnt care enough about your marriage "according to me", and what do you mean by "just like you and Alice" .. I live in South Wales for the record. I think you have your wires crossed in a major way.

LOL Gene, I have discussed at length on here that i am a stay at home mum which is why i assumed you asked the question about my income because.... oh goodness me I havent got one!!!! You suggested your marriage is successful because you work damn hard at it and i used an illustration that suggests even when you work hard there isnt a guarantee of success. Anyone can find themselves making difficult and decisions and living on a much lower income than they planned or expected but then you seem to think thats only the people that appear on that dreadful show - jeremy Kyle!!!! And finally... you and alice.......... nope lol you and alice share simply the ability to pay for your children's education - just like i do. i was suggesting nothing else.

[Kenn]

Well said squidge...we too struggled to put our son through university and cursed the government when they changed the rules.
My arguement is that some one else paid for my education and I am quite happy to pay towards the next generation.
Education is the only equaliser that we have and any one that has the ability to benefit from it is to be encouraged to achieve their aims in life.
If we give nothing to society then we do not have the right to gripe when it turns on us.
I'm sorry but I do not understand the "I'm ok " brigade..I did live through the Thatcher years and although she did make certain reforms that we're needed it lead to a very selfish, uncaring society.

[Aaldtimer]

I'm sorry but I do not understand the "I'm ok " brigade..I did live through the Thatcher years and although she did make certain reforms that we're needed it lead to a very selfish, uncaring society.[/quote]

By jings , ye hit the nail on the head there Lizz!
That's when it all started. "There's no such thing as society", to quote the Baroness, (would be monarch..."We are a grandparent")
The creator of mass unemployment, the removal of Hope from any school-leaver, a generation that couldn't find work, followed by a generation who didn't know what work was,the Destructor of the manufacturing base of the country, the Poll Tax, a paranoid hater of the working class and the Unions because her Dad lost his seat on a Council!
That's when the drugs epidemic started.
Well done Maggie, your Dad would be proud of you!
Until she was savaged by her own "Dead sheep" .(thanks Denis Healey) Geoffey Howe...and then the Men in Grey Suits stepped in.
That woman is the root of this county's woes today.
Michael Heseltine had it dead right! "That damned woman")
I'm not gonna go the road to the way she arranged a certain little war to boost her ratings.

[Alice in Blunderland]

They will have to get a job to support themselves and we will work it out because we can do that.

This is a good point.
The kids will have to possibly get a job to help put them though university and the parents will have to step in and help financially. This is because of their age and our salary there is no benefits / loans (unless you call 700 pound a year enough) on offer for them. This is my point why only in this one area are parents held accountable for their children. This should be more widespread should it not ?
This is what Im finding hard to figure out or am I missing something.
Should one of my kids at sixteen go out and say fall pregnant tomorrow no matter what my or my husbands income the system is set up to financially support them should I decide not to. That option is not there for further education its a case of laid down by the government you will support them. Which before anyone thinks otherwise I have no problem with I am just noticing what appears to be a one rule for one area one rule for another.

And just because WE dont need help it doesnt mean that we shouldnt give it to those who DO need it.

True those in need should recieve help support and training if needed to help them get back to work. This is where some of our taxes come in. Fairly, it isnt right if it becomes a case of well they have lots of money they should give lots back. A fair system where a everyone pays a percentage whether slightly more than others fine but if somone who does get on well and sees the fruits of their hard labour starts to feel unfairly penalised for doing well this is wrong it send out all the wrong signals.

And people used to look out for one another. Now as long as I'm all right Jack some look no further than their noses. Lets hope these people never have to find out what life is REALLY like when no matter how hard they work, how many sacrifices they make they cant find a cure for the cancer that means they have to stop work and rely on benefits, or they cant find a way to forgive their spouse when they have slapped them so hard they dont think they will ever hear properly again and they find themselves out on their ear with nothing but the clothes they stand up in and their children to look after.

This is where we have in this country an excellent social system which is a wonderful safety net for those who need it. I am sure no-one would deny this to anyone 'There but by the grace of God go I' is a saying that has been quoted. However its when the safety net becomes a security blanket that someone doesnt want to let go or looks for straight away then thats when we have it all wrong. Like all childen the safety blanket needs to be taken away gradually to allow the child to move on and see that life is possible without it.

[squidge]

Should one of my kids at sixteen go out and say fall pregnant tomorrow no matter what my or my husbands income the system is set up to financially support them should I decide not to.

Because the government recognises that when you have a young baby and you are a teenager yourself you are ill equipped to find work and therefore NEED support.Childcare costs and availability are just the first point. never mind lack of qualifications etc. In addition parents will not be supporting one person but two and also the benefits system recognises that the vast majority of single parents are not teenage mothers but menand women who have suffered a breakdown in a relationship which has led them to being alone with their children.

True those in need should recieve help support and training if needed to help them get back to work.

The whole benfits system is geared up to do this. Help for lone parents kicks in when the child is five i think although it is available on request before that. Jobseekers allowance system is set up to ensure that people get help to return to work and the government is now targetting people on incapacity benefit to see if they need help to get back to work. Under previous governments a girl could have a child at 16 and not be spoken to about finding work until her child ws 16 and she was 32!!!!! That doesnt happen now.

This is where some of our taxes come in. A fair system where a everyone pays a percentage whether slightly more than others fine but if somone who does get on well and sees the fruits of their hard labour starts to feel unfairly penalised for doing well this is wrong it send out all the wrong signals.

Isnt that what happens though? 40% and 50% to be? No one is suggesting a return to 90% tax bills and No one has talked about NI contributions. Its interestingto note that had the government removed the upper earnings limit it might have been able to generate £8.5 billion. Its interesting to note thatwhilst someone on £20 000 pays almost 8% NI conts someone on £500 000 pays only around the 4% mark. ( This info came from hansard see http://www.parliament.the-stationery...80521w0003.htm and are figures for 2008/9 tax year. )

Like all childen the safety blanket needs to be taken away gradually to allow the child to move on and see that life is possible without it.

I agree however life and opportunity have to remain available to all. Therefore education has to remain accessible and people with low incomes have to be supported to ensure their children are not denied the opportunity to go to university because they or their parents cannot afford it.

[cuddlepop]

Alice,the system of financing your child through further education is a mess and needs to be overhauled.

IMO education further or otherwise should be "free for all" secondary education is so why not further.I'm sure its not as simple as that but in an ideal world....

I'm sure your X is financialy responsible for his own chiildren until their 25 if they are studying Higher education.
Contact the CSA.

It is unfair but your new husbands income is taken into account and not their "real" dads when accessing your family income.

[Alice in Blunderland]

It is unfair but your new husbands income is taken into account and not their "real" dads when accessing your family income.

I did wonder but this is how it is. Her stepdads income prohibits her from accesssing any funds but he is more than willing to pay.

My point is why is it only in Education this rule according to age and being responsible for them financially comes in. I am not responsible for my children should they leave school at eighteen and go out and get a council house and sign on for benefits even if I could afford to set them up in their own house and provide for them I dont have to because the Government will, however because they want to live away and attend University I am to pay because I can afford it. Its stupid or is it just me

[cuddlepop]

. Its stupid or is it just me [/quote]

No your not stupid, its government policy thats cuckoo.

[Alice in Blunderland]

. Its stupid or is it just me

No your not stupid, its government policy thats cuckoo.[/quote]

Thanks CP I truly thought I was going loopy..........