Have we the right.

[Gleber2]

Do we, the people of the west, have the right to dictate to Iran or any other counry whether or not they can build Atomic Power Stations or even to make bombs?Are our leaders going to force the Iranians to put up or shut up?We have many troops on the Iraqi side of Iran and we are sending more troops into Afgahnistan. What is shaping up?Is Bush going to go all the way?
So many people in Pakistan are going to die this winter and so many people made homeless by the Tsunami are not being helped in any way.Countless people in the third world are dying from hunger when one of the biggest health problems in our society is obesity. Would it not be better if the money wasted on arms and armies was spent on the well being of those who are alive instead of venturing into new killing fields?

We should look to ourselves before dictating to any other country what they can or cannot do.

[JAWS]

I didn't know we were dictating to Iran. I thought it was the United Nations that were doing that under the Nuclear Arms Proliferation Treaty. The UN would, by the signals they ae sending out, put a lot more pressure in the Iranian Leadership to comply with the monitoring they previously agreed to.
The stumbling block is China which is protecting it's oil supplies and Russia which is trying to raise it's influence with the Iranians. Both have said they will veto any attempts by the UN to place sanctions on Iran.
An Iranian Government spokesman has said that if the UN acts against then then they will enrich tons of Uranium instead of the small amounts they claim to be enriching. I don't think it takes a genius to interpret what they are threatening. The only serious Sabre Rattling I have heard reported so far has come from the Iranians themselves without any provocation by anyone.

With respect to the Tsunami, things might move a little faster if the Countries which suffered got on with using the aid they already have instead of playing Politics with it.
The current situation in Sudan where there is a terrible refugee problem is again being worsened by the Chinese blocking any further help being sent there because they do not want to lose trade with the Government there.
The Chinese could also put a lot of pressure on North Korea to stop it's sabre rattling and also help improve the situation with regard to food shortages in that Country.
When are the Media going to do in depth reports on the killings in Chechnya and the human Rights abuses carried out there by Russian Troops under Putin’s orders. Afghanistan and the problems there are a hangover from the Russian invasion in the 80s. But we are supposed to be to blame for that as well.
It's time we stopped believing that everybody in the World is wonderful and that we alone are responsible for all the worlds ills.

[fred]

Do we, the people of the west, have the right to dictate to Iran or any other counry whether or not they can build Atomic Power Stations or even to make bombs?Are our leaders going to force the Iranians to put up or shut up?We have many troops on the Iraqi side of Iran and we are sending more troops into Afgahnistan. What is shaping up?Is Bush going to go all the way?

There is no imminent problem with Iran and nuclear weapons, there isn't even any evidence that they intend to build any and even if they did it would be years, perhaps decades before they could.

What is a problem is that Iran is due to open its own oil bourse in March trading in euros not dollars. If that happens the oil importing nations will not need to keep large reserves of dollars to buy oil with and America will not be able to keep printing money without devaluing its currency.

I can't see America invading Iran like they did Iraq, they could however take control of Khuzestan which is on the Iraqi border and holds 90% of Irans oil. To do this they would have to wipe out Irans military to prevent retaliation, America could well use nuclear weapons for that purpose.

[Gleber2]

USA has been dictating to the rest of the world for a fair length of time and has used bully tactics more than once to achieve its own way.Protecting the Kurds and the Iraqi people from Saddam's murdering ways was a reasonable excuse for the invasion of Iraq but you know,as well as I ,that it was America's addiction to oil that really lay behind it and no-one can say that the people of Iraq are better off now than they were before the invasion.On the other hand,absolutely nothing was done to protect the people of Chechnya or the people of Palestine from regimes that were slaughtering them becuse they demanded the right to be free from oppression.Protect the weak when it suits but let them die when it doesn't.Afghanistan's problems were there long before the Russian invasion.Britain and Russia tried their best to take control for hundreds of years and failed. The problems with Afghanistan are the Afghanis.They are following the life of the warrior as they have done for thousands of years.BTW the Afghans invited the Russians in so there was technically no invasion.
It does not matter a whit what the reasons are for the problems with the Tsunami and earthquake survivors.The problems are there and the much vaunted United Nations are not achieving much to alleviate the situation.We walk arround wallowing in our own milk fed bulk when thousands of people are dying from hunger in the Sudan,Niger,Congo,Ethiopia,Erirtea and all the other countries in Africa which have been plundered and destroyed to keep the West fat and then abandoned to their fate when it is no longer in the interests of the oppressors of the West to hold on to them.Mugabe is a monster but do we see an army knocking on his door?
We have people like Geldorf collecting for charity to help the hungry. What a sad reflection upon our society that people have to beg for handouts from common people when the combined military budget for one week in Iraq would probably feed all the hungry in Africa for a long time.
No one in their right mind would believe that everyone in the world is wonderful. I speak as a citizen of planet Earth and a member of the human race.I would rather leave national pride and the casting of blame out of the frame entirely.Whatever is being said by the powers that be and their lackeys in the media business, it does not take much of a seer to predict the near future from the obscurity of todays media coverage.
I am not seeking to blame anyone for the present situation but the situation exists and I would like to know what we can do about it. You can say what you want about Bin Liner and his gang but they have killed a lot less people than Bush!!!!
No moves were made to stop India,Pakistan,China and possibly Korea from using atomic power and making A bombs. So my original question still stands.
What right has anyone to dictate to another country as to what they can or can't do. If a rule is so strong that countries will go to war to enforce it then it should apply to all countries. Get rid of the atomic weapons world wide and give up on domestic Atomic power.We don't need the threat and we don't need the pollution.

[JAWS]

Gleber2, fred, what a simplistic way of presenting things.
If only the “Stop America” and the “Bush the Butcher” Brigades were right.
Every problem in the World could be solved overnight. Isn’t it comforting to have a scape-goat you can blame for everything. It brings to mind the chap who ranted on a call-in that Regan was to blame for the collapse of the Soviet Union because he made them spend too much on Arms. I knew the CIA were supposed to be behind every plot in the world but I didn’t realise they were good enough to get Regan a seat on the Polit Bureau especially as the Soviets never even noticed.
How to invade a Country without invading a Country.
First build and International Airport for a Country, then install a puppet ruler, wait for the 'invite', send in the Antonovs.
Prior the that the Afghans had been quietly getting on with being Afghans.
The UN is a complete waste of time when it comes to taking urgent action it is made up of many Countries who are busy feathering their own nests.
The International Atomic Energy Authority is a UN body and the Chairman's name is Mohammed al-Baradei, so I hardly think he was put there by the Americans. The IAEA, who initiated the concern over Iran are currently trying to get the UN to impose sanctions on Iran and is fully supported in this by the EU. If the problem is between Iran and using the Euro instead of the Dollar then I would expect the EU to encourage Iran to benefit it's own currency. The Euro/Dollar dispute is nonsensical, the Iranians are obviously playing the game of 'divide and conquer' in the hope that the EU and the USA will start fighting one another. The EU is not going to fall for that trick.
If Iraq was all about oil then why did the Americans block the lifting of sanctions? Saddam was only to ready to export oil and indeed was exporting more than he was supposed to be doing. Lifting the sanctions would have opened the floodgates not sealed up the supply so claiming it was to protect America's oil supplies does not hold water.
If 90% of Iran’s oil supply is in Khuzestan then it surely is Khuzestan's oil, not Iran’s.
Most of the Countries you mention in Africa have also been in the sphere of the influence of the old Soviet Union. In fact I would go so far as to say all of them so saying that their situation is caused only by the west is, to say the least, blinkered. Most of their problems are caused by the treatment of the people by their own Governments who are prone to diverting aid to their own supporters and ignoring everyone else.
Mugabe is a monster but every time an attempt has been made to get even the Commonwealth to stop him the attempt is blocked by other African Countries.
The west is not the only area which could help with all the problems you mention but whilst we at least do something other areas in the World sit on their hands and do nothing whilst haranguing us for not doing enough.
With respect to Iraq, am I to believe that it is the cause for all these problems because I seem to remember them being there before Saddam had ever been heard of, let alone in charge there.
Picking on one particular incident which you find unacceptable and trying to convince the world that it is the cause of all the worlds problems is a nonsense. If everybody stopped going to pubs, clubs and restaurants for a month then there would probably be the same amount money that you mention over Iraq. I'm willing to do that, If anybody finds me in a pub, club, or restaurant during this month I'll give a hundred pounds to charity.
Any body else willing to say the same, come on, Gleber2, fred, will you start!

[Rheghead]

USA has been dictating to the rest of the world for a fair length of time and has used bully tactics more than once to achieve its own way.

When the global map was 25% red, were we any different?

[daviddd]

Do we, the people of the west, have the right to dictate to Iran or any other counry whether or not they can build Atomic Power Stations or even to make bombs?Are our leaders going to force the Iranians to put up or shut up?We have many troops on the Iraqi side of Iran and we are sending more troops into Afgahnistan. What is shaping up?Is Bush going to go all the way?
So many people in Pakistan are going to die this winter and so many people made homeless by the Tsunami are not being helped in any way.Countless people in the third world are dying from hunger when one of the biggest health problems in our society is obesity. Would it not be better if the money wasted on arms and armies was spent on the well being of those who are alive instead of venturing into new killing fields?

We should look to ourselves before dictating to any other country what they can or cannot do.

Absolutely, I am ashamed to be 'part' of the Atlantic Alliance and would never vote labour again.

[fred]

If Iraq was all about oil then why did the Americans block the lifting of sanctions? Saddam was only to ready to export oil and indeed was exporting more than he was supposed to be doing. Lifting the sanctions would have opened the floodgates not sealed up the supply so claiming it was to protect America's oil supplies does not hold water.

America doesn't need Iraqi oil, 90% of their oil comes from the Americas and the rest from Saudi. The reason for the sanctions was because Iraq did a deal with Russia to develop their oil fields and supply the developing countries in the East. The reason for the invasion was because Iraq demanded payment in euros for the oil they sold under the oil for food program. America has a huge trade deficit with China and it's only the fact that China needs dollars to buy oil which allows America to pay them with worthless pieces of paper.

As I said, if Iran were to start enriching uranium now in ten years they might have enough to make one bomb, provided they had the technology to build one by then, what's the panic for?

Will America bully enough countries into voting for sanctions against Iran before March and prevent them selling oil for euros? Will they manufacture some incident on the Khuzestan border to give them an excuse to take control of Irans oil? Will the incident be imaginary as it was when they entered the Vietnam war? We will have to wait and see but I bet we won't have to wait long.

[landmarker]

Iran does not really need nuclear power with all the oil reserves it's sitting upon.

There can be little doubt this is all a front to mask development of a nuclear weapons system. Given that the Iranian leader has vowed to 'wipe Israel off the map' it doesn't bode well really does it?

Iran is a country governed by fanatical clerics. An uneasy youth are repressed and a very large proportion of the population want closer ties with the west. Repressed yet by the legacy of Ayatollah Homeini, another of the leaderships remarks was 'I wish to oversee the end of the wordl' !

We should use the diplomatic, or the economic route to deter further nuclear devlopment. If all else fails then bombing of strategic targets (Isfahan?) will surely follow. I'd support this. We cannot allow nutcases to obtain nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them.

Your post is simplistic gleeber, though well intentioned.

Incidentally, the winte rin Oakistan has so far been a little milder than usual. I heard a report today from the BBC. They'd found people who had not had shoes for fifteen years. I think they had summised that they did not really need them. This is a serious comment and not made flippantly. Think about it. We should not try to impose western values and customs on people who can do without them. That includes democracy in my opinion.

[_Ju_]

Do we, the people of the west, have the right to dictate to Iran or any other counry whether or not they can build Atomic Power Stations or even to make bombs?Are our leaders going to force the Iranians to put up or shut up?We have many troops on the Iraqi side of Iran and we are sending more troops into Afgahnistan. What is shaping up?Is Bush going to go all the way?

We should look to ourselves before dictating to any other country what they can or cannot do.

As far as I know, most countries in the world signed an agreement to non proliferation. NON PROLIFERATION. If a country like Iran does develop nuclear weapons, how long do you think it would take for a dirty bomb to go off in Picadilly Circus during peek hour traffic?
When it came to Saddam and Iraque, I was ( and am ) against going in.The country was on it's knees and the UN were not backing intervention.
With Iraq, there is no secret on their designs. They have even threatened proliferation, so yes, UN, please do intervene before we get the fist dirty bombing sice Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[wickerinca]

A bit of a sideways jump...........but do you think that some countries/cultures aren't ready for democracy?. I have stopped giving money to some of the charities that are supposed to be helping and feeding people who really need it because of the corruption in those countries. I refuse to line the deep, deep pockets of every Tom, Dick and Harry that has control over the aid distribution. I hope that you understand what I am saying ...it is not easy to verbalise. I have written to each charity that I supported and explained my position and until they can give me an assurance that my money is actually going to help those that need help then they won't be hearing from me. Gosh.....that is me off on a digressing rant again!! Sometimes I just want to go over there and do something myself.....but my father is quite convinced that I would be shot in the first week!!

You asked at the start if we had the right to etc etc. I don't know if we have the right....but do we have a moral obligation to try and right the wrongs of the world, Seems to be we are damned if we do and damned if we don't

[landmarker]

As far as I know, most countries in the world signed an agreement to non proliferation. NON PROLIFERATION. If a country like Iran does develop nuclear weapons, how long do you think it would take for a dirty bomb to go off in Picadilly Circus during peek hour traffic?
When it came to Saddam and Iraque, I was ( and am ) against going in.The country was on it's knees and the UN were not backing intervention.
With Iraq, there is no secret on their designs. They have even threatened proliferation, so yes, UN, please do intervene before we get the fist dirty bombing sice Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I had to read this twice but I know what you mean and for once we are in agreement, apart from your last sentence. Those bombs probably saved a quarter of a million lives, many of them American. Who knows how many millions since have been preserved simpky because of this demonstration of awesome destructive power?

[fred]

Iran does not really need nuclear power with all the oil reserves it's sitting upon.

Oil which they can sell to generate revenue rather than burn themselves.

There can be little doubt this is all a front to mask development of a nuclear weapons system. Given that the Iranian leader has vowed to 'wipe Israel off the map' it doesn't bode well really does it?

He didn't vow he "called" for Israel to be wiped off the map. Sounds like the ideal solution to me, better altering a load of maps than killing a load of people and Israel hasn't been on the maps all that long anyway, never should have been there in the first place.

Iran is a country governed by fanatical clerics. An uneasy youth are repressed and a very large proportion of the population want closer ties with the west. Repressed yet by the legacy of Ayatollah Homeini, another of the leaderships remarks was 'I wish to oversee the end of the wordl' !

In August 2005 those fanatical clerics you talk of issued a fatwa forbidding the production of nuclear weapons, which is very much against the Islamic religion.

Iran has no nuclear weapons nor the capability to produce them, Israel does, more than Britain has and most of them pointed at Iran. Israel has not signed the NPT as Iran has, Israel does not allow UN monitoring of their nuclear sites as Iran does, they refuse to even admit they have nuclear weapons.

Why is Israel not being reported to the Security Council?

[Gleber2]

Landmarker,the difference between Gleeber and Gleber2 is the same as chalk and cheese.It would hurt him more than it hurts me to get us mixed up.I have read the posts up to now and will have to think a while before replying at length.
One point,Jaws,I don't care if you are white or black,East or West,British or Yank,right or left and I am not casting blame.The simplest of pictures carry a lot of imformation if viewed with an eye that is looking for truths rather than faults.
If it is wrong for religious fanatics to have nuclear bombs there are Jews,Hindus.Muslims,Koreans and Christian fanatics who shouldn't have them also. Do we have the right to decide which fanatics have them and which don't?
The whys and wherefores of the situation world wide is of no consequence.It does not matter how we got here but it matters what we are going to do about it.
I'll take up the challenge,Jaws, because you will never find me in a pub or restuarant.As a vegerarian,non-drinking misanthrop I rarely go out.Anyway,when are you away from the Forum long enough to go out

[landmarker]

Why is Israel not being reported to the Security Council?

Israel has never signed the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty. Iran has.

[landmarker]

Furthermore: To allow the leaders of Iran to get anywhere near possession of a nuclear weapon would be tantamount to a dereliction of duty by any western government.

I'm sorry, but those who lead Iran (not the majority of population) glory in death. They love death as much as we love life. I rely on the Americans, ultimately to bomb any nuclear facility if sanctions fail.

Those who think otherwise are gullible in the extreme. Do you wish to appease those who would destroy you? For goodness sake wake up.
Iran has enough oil to keep her people warm and make a decent wedge flogging the rest to the west Fred.(no serial killer pun intended)

[landmarker]

Landmarker,the difference between Gleeber and Gleber2 is the same as chalk and cheese.]

I presume you live together. It must be lively !

[fred]

Israel has never signed the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty. Iran has.

So if you sign the treaty and don't make any nuclear weapons you get reported to the Security Council and if you don't sign the treaty and do make nuclear weapons you don't.

Is it any wonder the world's in the state it is in.

[landmarker]

So if you sign the treaty and don't make any nuclear weapons you get reported to the Security Council and if you don't sign the treaty and do make nuclear weapons you don't.

Is it any wonder the world's in the state it is in.

I can neither agree , nor disagree but the reason the west has an argument with Iran is that it signed the treaty. If it hadn't , then the bombs would probably already have been delivered.

Would you give a mad dog a shot of adrenalin Fred?

[Gleber2]

Bravo Fred. I never,at any time suggested that Iran should have nuclear capability. In a previous thread I was lambasted by the keeper of our collective conscience(who shall remain nameless) for voicing my concerns over Iran and their threats.I was told it was propoganda and not to be taken seriously.
I am saying that we do not have the right to dictate to any country what they can or cannot do.Who ever makes the first nuclear strike will set of the holocaust and will be the ones whom history will condemn.Pre-emptive bombing will be as spiritually wrong as the first bomb fired by an agressor such as Iran.
Some-one suggested that Gleeber and Gleber2 lived together.How horrible to live with that opinionated do-gooder who sees the world through Freud tinted glasses and tolerates everyone except those that disagree with him.I've known him for over fifty years and I ken him weel.