Scotland's National Flag

[r.rackstraw]

I see that the Scottish Socialist Party wants to replace the Saltire with a 'rainbow' flag. But it seems to me that the Saltire is already being replaced by the Lion Rampant, judging from football flags and car stickers.
Isn't the Lion Rampant the royal flag, which should be used only by the monarch?
Are there any heraldry experts out there who can comment on this?

[golach]

I see that the Scottish Socialist Party wants to replace the Saltire with a 'rainbow' flag. But it seems to me that the Saltire is already being replaced by the Lion Rampant, judging from football flags and car stickers.
Isn't the Lion Rampant the royal flag, which should be used only by the monarch?
Are there any heraldry experts out there who can comment on this?

You are right, the Lion Rampant is a Royal Flag, the Saltire is our National Flag

[Rheghead]

The lion rampant is Robert the Bruce's emblem, ok for the football crowd but it doesn't have any official status.

Nothing will replace the Saltire so long as Scots don't fall foul of extreme left wing or pseudo-nationalist politics.

[JAWS]

The sentence for flying the Lion Rampant other than by Royalty is, apparently, execution. One of the Town Halls insisted on flying it a couple of years back. They were asked not to and refused. The legal position was pointed out to them and for some reason they changed their minds. Rather rapidly, I might add.

The question of football was raised then and the answer was that for events involving National Teams it was acceptable for it to be displayed as it was representative of Scotland.

I suspect it was a matter rather sensible discretion. I suspect the thinking was along the lines of, "We'll be wasting out time trying to stop it so we'd better make it OK."
And a very wise decision I think that was.

[ice box]

It should be kept the way it is it dosent need to be changed it's always been like that and should stay like .

[Whitewater]

The Scottish Socialist Party have always held rather odd and extreme views, supposedlly for the benifit of Scotland. If they are thinking of changing the Saltire for a rainbow flag of some sort, they are again proving themselves to be ignorant of Scotland and its people. Just another stupid publicity stunt.

[MagicalTrevor]

Popular use of the saltire flag, although it is properly a Royal symbol, has a degree of official recognition. But the same is not true of the "lion rampant flag" (the old "Royal Standard" or "Royal Banner"); it is the property of the Queen and unauthorized use is illegal under Scots law (as, indeed, is the unauthorized use of any arms by somebody other than the owner). The following are authorised to use the "lion rampant flag"

the First Minister as Keeper of the Great Seal of Scotland, (the Secretary of State of Scotland formerly held this post)
Lords Lieutenant (in their Lieutenancies),
the Lord High Commissioner to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, (during the meeting of the General Assembly)
the Lord Lyon King of Arms,
and other lieutenants specially appointed.
However, in modern times, it has become practice for the Lion Rampant flag to be used by Scottish citizens as an alternative Flag of Scotland. Though such use is an offence, it would be administratively impossible to prosecute the thousands of people who fly the arms. In 1934 King George V permitted use of the flag "as a display of loyalty". Lord Lyon currently interprets this very widely to allow it, for example, to be waved at sporting events by loyal Scots, but frowns on it being flown as a flag - outside Civic or private buildings.

[wicker]

Arent they wanting to change the saltire because of its religious connections or something like that. Everything is too politically correct nowadays

[landmarker]

I wear a woolly hat with the Saltire at the back every day (in winter) even though I'm English, and in England. (have a Scottish great granny).

I find this subject most interesting and informative.

Just what are the religious connections Wicker? I confess to just admiring the symbolism and it makes a statement for me. The best bit about my hat is it gets strangers talking to me about Scotland - one of my favourite topics.

The 'Lion Rampant' is also a fine symbol, but for underated simplicity the saltire, and indeed the cross of St.George are noble expressions of national identity.

[JAWS]

Landmarker, the Religious Connection is the fact that the Cross is diagonally across the flag.

When St. Andrew was Crucified he is supposed to have requested that he be Crucified on a Cross made in that shape because he didn't feel it was appropriate to be Crucified on a Cross similar to the one Christ was Crucified on.
The only problem I have with that is that he must have caught the Romans on an exceedingly good day. Personally I would have thought it more likely that they would have beaten the living daylights out of him for his cheek.

I would not find the idea of a different flag if all the countries with Crescents, Red Stars and Hammers and obsolete implements such as Sickles were to do the same.

I do find it strange that such a suggestion is made and the people making it make the suggestion that only one particular form of symbolism are considered to be a problem when other similar forms of symbolism are not.

If the Saltire is to be changed for anything then Scotland has a perfectly good alternative already in the Lion Rampant.
Unless that is, of course, that the people seeking the change are more interested in a change for the sake of Political Ideology and the supposed Religious problem is just a smoke screen to hide the fact.

I doubt that anybody outside Britain ever connected the Saltire with Religion except, perhaps, Russia which has the same Patron Saint!

[golach]

Jaws I beg to differ, see this link, for the true story of why the Saltire is the Emblem of Scotland, as far as I see religion was not the reason it was chosen
http://www.standrewsdayrally.com/saltire.html

[frank ward]

Noy unusually, Press reports regarding the SSP are inaccurate, misleading, or deliberate lies. The SSP are no friends of the lying capitalist press and the distaste is mutual. The 'story' about the Saltire is another case of deception by the media. I give below Colin Fox's letter - don't expect it to be widely published and don't expect to see an apology from the Press.
Frank Ward
Caithness & utherland SSP



> Dear Editor,
>
> The Press and Journal carried a story on Monday 23rd January saying that the
> Scottish Socialist Party would scrap the Saltire as the flag of Scotland.
> Unfortunately your reporter picked up on a story from an English newspaper
> without checking the facts with either myself or the SSP press office.
> I was asked by the newspaper if I believed that the Union Jack should be
> scrapped and, as this is something I have advocated for some considerable
> time, I said yes.
> I was asked if I wanted to see the Saltire flying on public buildings in
> Scotland in place of the Union Jack, again I said yes, most definitely.
> I then added that perhaps in some time in the future after we have an
> independent socialist Scotland a national debate could be opened up on
> Scotland's flag.
> The idea that I want to scrap the Saltire is false and at no stage have I
> said that I intended to lodge a motion in the Scottish Parliament to that
> effect.
> I have on many occasions carried the Saltire on demonstrations and protests
> and will continue to do so.
> I would hope that in the future when you report stories involving the SSP
> you will follow basic journalistic good practise and check the facts before
> you go to print instead of blindly copying a story from another newspaper
> which turned out to be wildly inaccurate.
>
> Colin Fox
> Scottish Parliament
> Edinburgh
> EH99 1SP
>

[JAWS]

Jaws I beg to differ, see this link, for the true story of why the Saltire is the Emblem of Scotland, as far as I see religion was not the reason it was chosen
http://www.standrewsdayrally.com/saltire.html

Thanks for the site, Golach. I'd heard a vague story about the clouds and a battle, now I've learned a bit more about it. I knew the Saltire had been Scotland's National Flag for a very long time but I wasn't aware it's history went back over a thousand years, that really was a surprise.

Noy unusually, Press reports regarding the SSP are inaccurate, misleading, or deliberate lies. The SSP are no friends of the lying capitalist press and the distaste is mutual. The 'story' about the Saltire is another case of deception by the media. I give below Colin Fox's letter - don't expect it to be widely published and don't expect to see an apology from the Press.
Frank Ward
Caithness & Sutherland SSP

> I was asked by the newspaper if I believed that the Union Jack should be
> scrapped and, as this is something I have advocated for some considerable
> time, I said yes.
> I was asked if I wanted to see the Saltire flying on public buildings in
> Scotland in place of the Union Jack, again I said yes, most definitely.
> I then added that perhaps in some time in the future after we have an
> independent socialist Scotland a national debate could be opened up on
> Scotland's flag.
> The idea that I want to scrap the Saltire is false and at no stage have I
> said that I intended to lodge a motion in the Scottish Parliament to that
> effect.
>

Having read Colin Fox's letter there is no doubt in my mind that what is said there has been grossly exaggerated and added to if that is the only source the media has used. Certainly the Media should have checked with either Colin Fox himself or with the SSP Press Office.

The above extract does not, I believe, mislead in respect to the general meaning of the letter with respect to the Saltire.

However, I am still puzzled by the fact that the Saltire as the National Flag of an Independent Scotland, Socialist or otherwise, should need any discussion.
.
Is there some suggestion that the Saltire has been imposed on the people of Scotland by an outside force?
Is there any suggestion that the Saltire is being imposed by an uncaring authority to the great dismay of the people?
Is the Saltire representative of a particular section of Society which is using it as a symbol of domination?

I leave the answers to those questions to others better qualified than me, but I suspect I already know the answers.