American Right-Wing Merchandise

[Melancholy Man]

MM..."Screw you Michael Moore, screw your worthless soul. This is what your minutemen are doing."...
could you explain this sentence for me?

This was how he described the "Iraqi resistance". Just as, after 11/9, he asked why a Republican district wasn't attacked.

[Aaldtimer]

Ah! Thank you . Get your drift now.

[Melancholy Man]

Instead what normally happens is the team will instantly switch from civilian contact mode (talking to the locals, handing out candy and bottles of water) into combat mode. Typically without a spoken word.

I can see problems with this. Most humans have an almost-phobic fear of inflicting deadly violence on other humans. As I understand it, current USMC training involves bypassing recourse to the cerebral cortex, and getting men to fire literary without thinking.

Certainly this works on the battle-field, but what of the psychological after-effects.

[TBH]

I can see problems with this. Most humans have an almost-phobic fear of inflicting deadly violence on other humans. As I understand it, current USMC training involves bypassing recourse to the cerebral cortex, and getting men to fire literary without thinking.

Certainly this works on the battle-field, but what of the psychological after-effects.

Or muscle memory kicking in when it's not supposed to.

[northener]

..........
Without even a casual glance at the form book, I would be willing to bet that the latter names did NOT come from men in ANY danger of death. Unless sitting in a back room, drinking gallons of coffee and eating tons of doughnuts be deemed to be "very real danger of death"

Most of warfare consists of having drones willing to follow orders without fail. I doubt that many would be pondering gentle irony whilst being instructed to kill, of an evening.

I'd beg to differ on that score, Scorrie. The front line guys are always very good at black humour or irony. Living on the edge focuses the mind wonderfully.

Regarding drones - troops motivated by political, religious or nationalist ideals will wipe the floor with drones every single time.

[JAWS]

I did qualify my remark by saying "If I recall correctly" before linking Napalm and the term Orange Crush. I accept that it is probably an Urban Myth. That does not alter the fact that the US deployed chemicals in Vietnam. Agent Orange was designed as a defoliant, does that make it more acceptable to have sprayed several million gallons of it in Vietnam?

Agent Orange was a highly toxic substance and has been linked to health problems of both the troops who were spraying it and the people of Vietnam who were exposed to it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3798581.stm

You accuse me of having a one-way agenda. Where is your balanced analysis? If another country sprayed poisonous chemicals across the UK, would you accept that as fair play?

Are you saying Agent Orange was deliberately used as an anti-personnel weapon?

Have you bothered to find as much detail about the actions of the Russians in Afghanistan or Chechnya? Have you bothered to assess the actions of the Red Guards whilst busily waving Mao’s “Little Red Book” aka “Mao’s Mundane Mutterings”?

Strange that your only concerns about alleged inhumanity is when you can apply it to America. Your careful aversion of your eyes and studied blindness when it come to what you find inconvenient reminds me of those Nuremberg steadfastly claiming that they knew nothing about any of the atrocities committed by their supporters because they were too busy engaged in doing other things and had their attention ever so slightly distracted.

If you are looking for new converts to the cause you are definitely going to have to get some new material. Beating a dusty fifty year old drum to death impresses only those who have already decided it sounds liked it’s worth following.

Have you any idea what happened to Buster Crabb?


Scorrie is busily trying to whip up anti-American hysteria again and again and again, folks.
If you trawl round certain sites for long enough they eventually throw up a gimmick which can be used as a starter for dragging up how terrible America and the West are whilst the rest of the World is full of sweet, innocent angels suffering under their crushing heels.

When it comes to such matters the modern versions are complete rubbish, Radio Moscow in the 50s and 60s was far more interesting and their original comedy acts were far better than their modern copiers.


I remember their boasts about their T34 Tractor Production Lines and their wheat production which had exceeded all previous records. (Mainly because they had bought up all the excess wheat produced in America using fictitious Companies which led straight back to the KGB.
Now those were the days when propaganda really was worth listening to, mainly because they could be guaranteed not to keep regurgitating the same old jokes.
“Now is the time for all good men, oops sorry, persons, to come to the aid of the Party” and bring you own Vodka, we are running low on our anti-freeze supplies.

Hell, is this thread funny, it’s been the best joke for a long time. Sorry about the poor children in the school, we promise to do more damage if we raid any Theatres. And if you are a journalist, stay well away from any windows in high buildings they can be very dangerous to people who write terrible fibs about us especially when you complain about people having terrible accidents whilst gathering in Red Square.

Keep going scorrie, playing pass the horror story is quite enjoyable and certainly good for a laugh.
Anybody know if they are still printing the Little Red Book, mine went dog-eared and fell apart. I really miss it and my poster of Chairman Mao saying "Mao Tse Dung thou are the red sun of our hearts" or was hearts spelt slightly differently, I can't quite recall.

I believe in Tiananmen Square they still gather to sing "Tanks for the memory" but I haven't been there myself to check.
Oh, sorry, that was another nasty American Capitalist lie which never happened, wasn't it.

[Melancholy Man]

Red Square in the dead of winter, a man is traipsing across with one shoe missing. Another calls to him, hey, Vasily, do you know you have lost one shoe?

On the contrary, replies the man, I have found one.

Or, the USSR was as free as the USA. Just as you could stand before the White House shouting, down with Reagan!, you could stand in front of the Kremlin shouting, down with Reagan!

When it comes to such matters the modern versions are complete rubbish, Radio Moscow in the 50s and 60s was far more interesting and their original comedy acts were far better than their modern copiers.

I don't have the reference, but early Cold War propaganda films in the Soviet Union showing the "squalor" in Southern cities in America had to be shelved when audiences began asking why the impoverished Americans had bright white washing hanging on lines.

Your careful aversion of your eyes and studied blindness when it come to what you find inconvenient reminds me of those Nuremberg steadfastly claiming that they knew nothing about any of the atrocities committed by their supporters because they were too busy engaged in doing other things and had their attention ever so slightly distracted.

That said, those individuals were intimately involved in the supply and planning of these acts or supporting the departments and agencies which enacting them. This is a comments thread on the Internet.

Slightly fanciful to link the two.

[oldmarine]

Here are some more weapons system names that I have aquaintence with:

Stone Ghost
Senior Trend
Senior Year
Classic Wizard
Follow Ruby

I won't speak for the other US services, but the US Marines highly prize those who are not drones. It is one reason why they are so effective in combat and largely feared by the enemies. The Marine Corps approach is to instill in every Marine, officer to bottom rung enlisted, the seeds of leadership, critical thinking and self-reliance.

This is because many many times in battle a small unit (4 man fire team, 16 man quad) will encounter the enemy and need to respond immediately. Sadly in Iraq and Afghanistan first contact often happens when the bad guys open up with warning on a group walking through the streets to help keep order and peace. This means that many times 2-4 brave Marines are injured or even killed before the squad knows what happened. The next few seconds determines who lives and who dies. Many times the ones getting hit are the Sergeant (I am a former Sergeant myself) or the Lieutenant.

If they were drones, they would be struck dumb and immobile, while some thug with a gun or RPG mowed them down. Instead what normally happens is the team will instantly switch from civilian contact mode (talking to the locals, handing out candy and bottles of water) into combat mode. Typically without a spoken word. Whomever is still able to fight will divide into returning fire, treating the wounded and getting the civilians out of the line of fire.

The people of Iraq and Afghanistan have seen this enough time to learn 2 lessons. 1) You can trust the Marines (In Iraq they call us "White Sleeves") and 2) Never fight them because they will kill you. You can shoot the leaders, and they still fight.

Sorry for the ramble. Just wanted to share the difference between the common notion of "drones" and what real Marines are like.

If you want to see a movie production that shows Marines in the closest thing I have seen to accurate, go watch Aliens (the first sequel). The fellow who plays Gunny Apone is an actual Marine and re-wrote all of their dialog.

Bruce H

Bruce H: Thanks for your post. You appear to know much about the US
arines.

[dig]

Prob first & last post. Was looking for info on ancestors who left Bower in 1830s & stumbled across this site.

Old Marine & other millitary posts reminded of an incident in Vietnam when the world was young.

An American base, all spit & polish, had a sign over main entry giving name of unit & underneath the motto "SECOND TO NONE"

Further down the road was another base, not quite so regimental with a sign over entry reading "NONE". Beside gate was a smaller sign reading "3rd RAR"*

(Prob when Nero heard it he threw another dozen christians to the lions)


*Royal Australian Regiment

[Welcomefamily]

I wish I could share the amusement of the notion that education should be ditched in favour of building more bombs. The inference is that, people who can afford to educate their kids can do so, while poor people should not have government money wasted on educating THEIR offspring. More Arabs can be bombed and more Oil taken, if money is spent on "Defence" instead.

Hilarious!!

Its still amusing, however like wise I would not agree with the second T shirt as I would put Education far before Bombs, how ever the point of the first T shirt does hit the nail on the head fairly well. Green is such an offensive colour.

[scorrie]

Are you saying Agent Orange was deliberately used as an anti-personnel weapon?

Scorrie is busily trying to whip up anti-American hysteria again and again and again, folks.

Only an imbecile could have thought that dropping highly toxic chemicals in millions of gallons would not have had an effect on both the soil and the people of the area. Use of chemicals in war is supposed to be forbidden. That is my point, pure and simple.

If you have a look through my 2000 odd posts, you will find little reference to Anti-American sentiment. Your statement about hysteria, again and again and again, is utter cobblers.

As always, you avoid answering my question about whether what happened in Vietnam is wrong, instead, the old "Ooh, look, OTHER countries did it too!!" mantra spews forth.

All you are trying to do here is attack me personally, rather than actually pay one shred of attention to points raised. Rant away old bean, people like you lose their potential impact as soon as they start mocking the other side in an attempt to score some points. People either know who I am, or can make their minds up for themselves. They don't need some mouthpiece shouting the odds about what is allegedly happening.

[scorrie]

I'd beg to differ on that score, Scorrie. The front line guys are always very good at black humour or irony. Living on the edge focuses the mind wonderfully.

Regarding drones - troops motivated by political, religious or nationalist ideals will wipe the floor with drones every single time.

I think several have misinterpreted my use of the word "drones" to describe troops. I have seen a few documentaries about soldiers and their training. I recall one where an instructing officer told trainees "We didn't lose the war in Vietnam, we COULD have won that SUCKER" in a manner that was akin to referring to a football match. Watching Navy Seals having it drummed into them to follow orders and put the unit before self made it clear to me that the guys are there to do purely what they are told. This is obviously essential in warfare, but it leaves the soldiers with no room to actually look at the bigger picture and whether what they are doing is TRULY justified and morally acceptable. The men are doing a job, I admire their courage, but I question whether they ever get truly used to killing people as part of their work? Post traumatic stress disorder and other mental horrors would suggest that some veterans never fully conquer their "demons"

That is why I refer to troops as drones. A soldier who is thinking about the consequences of his actions is not likely to make for a reliable killer in the heat of battle. It is surely men who obey unflinchingly, that make the best combatants?

No disrespect to men who go to battle, I hope they can get on with their lives afterwards. I simply don't find it natural to try to kill someone who you do not know, and who may never have done anything bad in their life. After all, they are simply in the same position, ordered by others to try to eliminate the "enemy"

[Melancholy Man]

Only an imbecile {...}

Would these be the same imbeciles who were encouraging DDT parties back home? Scientific knowledge changes, and when the effects of dioxins became known, Agent Orange was withdrawn.

As I said before, the alternative was dropping ordnance. Agent Orange was used because it was assumed to be a non-lethal method of removing the canopy and exposing the Viet Cong routes. It was found to have side-effects, and was withdrawn.

{...} could have thought {...}

Lesson 1 in discussing historical events, avoid making assumptions about the motives of actors. Without corroboratory evidence you run the risk of becoming a 'situationist' and setting up whopping great big straw-men. It's the difference between Francis Pryor and Bettany Hughes.

{...} that dropping highly toxic chemicals in millions of gallons {...}

Twenty millions gallons were indeed sprayed across 10% of Vietnam. That is, about 30,000 miles ^ 2. Any farmers here who can confirm how this compares to pesticide spraying in Western countries of the same period?

{...} would not have had an effect on both the soil and the people of the area.

Direct exposure to dioxins is a known carcinogen. This happened infrequently during Vietnam. In fact, it was US soldiers most likely to be so affected.

Purported research linking continuing birth defects is largely in Vietnamese and the data have not been released for review. What is known is that it involves extrapolating figures across the country from health problems in the affected zones, which are the same as the general population.

Use of chemicals in war is supposed to be forbidden.

What do you base that on? Not that it's relevant, as Agent Orange is not classed as a chemical weapon.

[Bruce_H]

Clearly you have a good heart Scorrie, but let me help shine some light on a few things from a military perspective.

A soldier who is thinking about the consequences of his actions is not likely to make for a reliable killer in the heat of battle. It is surely men who obey unflinchingly, that make the best combatants?

When your best friend is a bloody mess beside you, you don't need anyone to encourage you to take action. In military terms it would be impossible for leaders of any unit to give such detailed orders that they could be unflinchingly obeyed by every member.

You don't normally have orders being given to troops to go out and kill people. In fact (at least the US military) the emphasis is more on getting people to stop shooting at us, or trying to build bombs that kill more Iraqis than GIs.

Even in the case of Al Queda folks, if we know where they are the first choice is always to capture them in as few pieces as possible. Many cases they end up dead because history has shown us that unless we can surprise them with a huge encircling force, they will take hostages, or suicide out with as many civilians as possible.

You are correct that many people who have been to war are forever scarred by the experience, but this is no different today than the recurring nightmares my father had over his combat in WW2. War is supposed to be awful, it helps us understand why it is so important to avoid it. In many cases the use of precision weapons has made it less of a nightmare to engage in combat, and sadly perhaps a bit more acceptable.

Everyone I served with knew the risks when they signed up, and were ready to do what was needed when the time came if it came. We more or less knew that could come with a heavy price.

What I find hurts the military folks the most is the bitter hate they receive from a small but very vocal fraction of the population, who blame them for doing a dirty and unpleasant job. Living in a military town, we do actually put forth quite a bit of effort to create an environment that celebrates these brave people and discourages radical anti-war people from being so brutal.

Bruce H

[brandy]

not to be tangled up in the thing this post has become, but can i say that as an american citizen that i am offended by the racist way that i have percived scorries orig. comments.
he may not have meant it that way but that is the way it came across to me.
there is black humor everywhere, but that does not mean that i a simple american takes part in it. and the KKK pictures i find that deeply humuliating and deginerating. it is sadly a horrible part of the southern life, that a minority live strongly by today.
there is such hatred and bias attached to that it is just stupid to bring it to light, as anyone that has a close personal knowlege of it will be horrified.
america is not perfect, there are good people and their are bad people.
but its the exact same here and everywhere else on this planet.
i as an outsider could start slagging off wick by going on about druggies and tinks. about the absolute lack of moral values, how children run wild like rabbid animals. ive seen tshirts worm with pride that state Dirty Weeker which i think from what ive been told was orig an insult?. its not a nice thing to do to belittle another culture as a whole. i felt as if you are taking a few things and painting an entire people with the same brush.
if i have taken it out of context then im sorry, but that is just how i read the comments.

[Bruce_H]

Hello Brandy

Sorry if what Scorrie brought up was offensive to you. As a yank and a former drone (!) I have to admit that I did not take offense at all. A lot of folks across the world have strange perceptions of the USA, in part because we create them.

If you had not lived in the US for a while, you have little to go on save our media, which over the past 20 years has created an increasingly twisted "cartoon version" of many aspects of American life. For example I get a huge laugh talking to my cousin's children about life in America, as they ask me things like "Is Chicago run by gangs?", and "What happened to everyone after the nuclear bomb went off in LA?" (reference to the thriller show 24). There seems to be a common belief that most of America is a hybrid between the spoiled rich kids of 90210 and the brutal crime pit of CSI.

Sadly for the Scots it is no better. If you were to ask the average American about Scotland and Scottish people it would be a cartoon like parody (please don't take offense good Scottish folk!) of what Scotland is really like.

So please go easy on folks who don't yet have the depth of knowledge or appreciation for the wacky multi-faceted wonder box that is the USA. I don't think they mean any harm at all.

Bruce H

[brandy]

*grins* reading it now it does sound really harsh, but reading some of the posts just really got my dander up. i hate generalization, and the KKK pics really do bug me, i can still remember seeing crosses burned on the lawn of a girl i went to school with just a couple streets over from me, because her mum (white) had a black boyfriend.
im only 31 years old and i was about 12 when that happened. so not so very long ago.
its scary how hate can grow so fast and out of nothing more than a dif. in skin color and the way one person thinks dif. from another. i could care less what race, color, creed, faith or team someone was. as long as they are good decent folks that is all that matters at the end of the day.
i want to be friends with the bloke that picks up the little old ladies bags of shopping she dropped even though he has blue hair tats and piercings in every orifice. and not the middle class idiot that rushed past her and knocked them out of her arms in the first place with out even a by your leave.
just because we are look or seem dif. dosent mean anything.
its who we are underneath that matters, if you know what i mean!

[scorrie]

Would these be the same imbeciles who were encouraging DDT parties back home? Scientific knowledge changes, and when the effects of dioxins became known, Agent Orange was withdrawn.

As I said before, the alternative was dropping ordnance. Agent Orange was used because it was assumed to be a non-lethal method of removing the canopy and exposing the Viet Cong routes. It was found to have side-effects, and was withdrawn.



Lesson 1 in discussing historical events, avoid making assumptions about the motives of actors. Without corroboratory evidence you run the risk of becoming a 'situationist' and setting up whopping great big straw-men. It's the difference between Francis Pryor and Bettany Hughes.



Twenty millions gallons were indeed sprayed across 10% of Vietnam. That is, about 30,000 miles ^ 2. Any farmers here who can confirm how this compares to pesticide spraying in Western countries of the same period?



Direct exposure to dioxins is a known carcinogen. This happened infrequently during Vietnam. In fact, it was US soldiers most likely to be so affected.

Purported research linking continuing birth defects is largely in Vietnamese and the data have not been released for review. What is known is that it involves extrapolating figures across the country from health problems in the affected zones, which are the same as the general population.



What do you base that on? Not that it's relevant, as Agent Orange is not classed as a chemical weapon.

Scientific Knowledge does indeed change, that is why it is probably unwise to to go spraying millions of gallons of chemicals on a country. Agent Orange IS a chemical. It may not be classed as a "Chemical Weapon" but, as you say, even some American Troops suffered adverse effects from the exposure to the substance. It is your choice whether to accept and excuse the use of this "Weedkiller", it is also your choice to believe that Napalm and Agent Orange are NOT Chemical Weapons because someone has defined them as being something else, such as an "incendiary device" or a "defoliant". I do suspect, however, that if your face was dripping with Napalm, you might indeed think to yourself that it was a acting in the manner of a Chemical Weapon. Agent Orange was used for ten years, I think that needs pointing out less some people get the idea that it was used sparingly and simply withdrawn when it was found out that there were side-effects. By the way, dying is a pretty serious side-effect!!

As far as Chemical Weapon legality goes, you can check this out:-

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082...8?OpenDocument

I had been led to believe it was illegal under the terms of the Geneva Convention. If it is, in fact, legal, let me apologise and send out a call for Great Britain and The USA to similarly apologise to Iraq for invading under, at least partly, false pretences.

[Melancholy Man]

I prefer to avoid using racist to describe criticism of America until absolutely necessary. I have had the misfortune to meet only one or two individuals whom I can describe as absolute filth, and Scorrie is not one.

"What happened to everyone after the nuclear bomb went off in LA?" (reference to the thriller show 24).

I thought it was Sledge Hammer!.

There seems to be a common belief that most of America is a hybrid between the spoiled rich kids of 90210 and the brutal crime pit of CSI.

Everyone in CSI is just too beautiful to be brutal. Life in LA is, however, exactly like The Shield. It's a fact.

[scorrie]

Regarding drones - troops motivated by political, religious or nationalist ideals will wipe the floor with drones every single time.

Just another thought on this northerner, how does a religiously motivated soldier who is a Christian manage to square the circle of having to break the Commandment "Thou shalt not kill"?