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Thread: A question for Americans everywhere...

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by urchin

    when it quite clearly is Hyoostons

    Is Hyoostons the same a Hyjoes in Thursa or should that be High Joes

    Golach

  2. #22
    jjc Guest

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    Okay… can I just say that I posted this thread with the intention that it be a light-hearted observation rather than some kind of attack on all Americans. I have nothing against Americans in general. If I really thought all Americans were like Bush I wouldn’t have bothered asking the question in the first place…

    Fionarich, I’m sorry that you think I am a very negative person. If we had ever met I hope that you would hold a different view. I am, I think, one of the most optimistic people I know, which explains why I think it is worth voicing my opinions... hey, I’m optimistic enough to think that there is somebody out there listening who has enough ‘power’ to do something about it. If that isn’t blind hope in the face of overwhelming dismissal then I don’t know what is.

    I’m not going to bang on with the whole ‘was the war right’ thing again (God knows, we’ve already been over that one). Frankly, I’m glad that it wasn’t the ‘next Vietnam’ (although that is something the papers accused anti-war protesters of saying and not something that I ever heard anybody actually say).

    Just one question though. You say that most American’s don’t care whether WOMD are ever found… looking back over the statements Bush made, doesn’t it bother you that he may have lied to you? Doesn’t that warrant a closer look? I’m certainly concerned that Blair may have lied to me… and I would be whether I was behind the war or not because it is a distinct and important point. This isn’t a case of the ends justifying the means, it is a case of government being held accountable for its statements, whatever the circumstances.

  3. #23
    fionarich Guest

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    JJC,

    You are claiming that Bush lied- there has been no evidence to date of any lies and that will be a matter of opinion to many people here, also. Could there have been exaggeration? Possibly, but I am guessing that many people will be of the opinon that it is better to be safe than sorry.

    Unless there is very clear and undeniable evidence of a conspiracy, people here would likely think that Bush and Blair had good intentions, that they believed that SH had chemical or nuclear weapons and that they believed in good faith that they were reducing/eliminating a threat to both their countries and the world. Intelligence can help a great deal, but no intelligence gathering is ever 100% and in a secretive & paranoid regime like Sadaam Hussein's, things can and often change in an instant without the outside world knowing what has or has not just occured. In the end, many Americans will likely consider that the ends has justified the means.

    Am I convinced that Saddam Hussein had a documented stockpile of weapons that were/are considered very dangerous? Absolutely. Even the French and Germans said that they believed that he possesed such weapons, and was hiding them. There is documentation of him receiving or producing an extensive arsenal of chemical and biological agents, and no proof of him destroying any of it.

    At some point, we may get some information from the Iraqi scientists that were captured, but until Saddam Hussein & his sons are caught, they may never talk. Let's face it, we gave Saddam Hussein plenty of warning that we were coming, so he had plenty of time to hide or destroy them, if he did have any. Iraq is a very large country- he could have buried them, hidden them in caves, or destroyed them in the days right before the coalition troops moved in etc. There have been reports that there are were high levels of numerous illegal chemical agents found in the water of the Tigris River, when it was tested after the fall of the regime.

    If Saddam Hussein had no chemical weapons, why did coalition troops find so much chemical protective gear (both masks & suits) in places that had been used to house their military (hospitals, schools, etc). The Iraqis would know that neither the British or the Americans use chemical weapons in warfare. Why coalition troops carry protective gear is obvious. No-one knows if chemical weapons weren't used because they were none, if they had been previously hidden or if the Baath party leaders decided not to, once they heard of the possible consequences (along with the lack of military leadership).

    It is possible that Saddam Hussein knew that if any were found, that the whole world would turn against him. For all we know, he may have hidden them for any number of reasons: sympathy from the world community, plans to return one day and regain his dicatorship, etc. The point is that we just don't know.

    One thing is clear- that political opponents of both Bush and Blair are pushing the whole theory of lies because it would benefit them the most in the next elections, to discredit the current leadership. The media loves it because the story sells newspapers and provides a reason for people to watch the news, not to mention that most media oulets are managed and staffed by those with Liberal/Leftist beliefs. In the end, a handful of world leaders make decisions for the majority and control many things. Many times there is information that we, as the public are not privvy to. Most Americans will trust that the person that they elected (Bush) and his advisors are working towards what is in the best interest of the American in the long run.
    Make fun of Bush all you want, but his advisors are recognized to be a very competent and capable group of men and women. Dick Cheney, the Vice President is said to be a driving force and he has the utmost respect from people, as does Clin Powell, Condaleeza Ricer & many others. I am speculating here, but I suspect that leaders of the Arab world repect Bush a great deal more than any recent past President, because Bush has taken decisive action and struck back with military force (and won). It is common knowledge that the US was considered weak by not only Usama Bin Laden, but many others in that part of the world, because the US had not retaliated after so many terrorist incidents around the world, in which US embassies and military facilities were bombed and military personnel were killed (bombing of the USS Cole, bombing at CoBar towers, Boming of US embassies in African & other countries, etc, etc). Many people believe that he is much smarter than he has been given credit for.


    Additionally, if you read many articles about Bush, he is liked by other world leaders as he is said to have a very warm and likeable personality. He is said to be humble and a sincere person, as well as having very strong religious beliefs and values, as many Americans also do.

    He may be not be extremely cultured, but he is a man of convictions and actions. He is very much supported here and if you have seen any of the media coverage of him greeting crowds or militray personnel, he gets the same reaction as any big name pop star, and people here are very happy with the job that he is doing.

    Clinton tried for years to broker the Mid-East Peace Talks between the Israelis and the Palestinians- with no success, much to his disappointment as he was hoping to be remembered for doing so. Bush has already had more success and has taken the talks further than Clinton ever did. His success in this matter is just one more reason for the Democrats/Liberals to hate him!

    I might also point out that for all of these people that are screaming about risking "OUR" troops lives", the overwhelming majority of those troops serving (Both British & American) will tell you that they support the Iraq War and that they belive that it was the right thing to do, to remove such a destabalizing and oppressive regime. As the miliary is non-political, I assure you that if they believed that it was the wrong thing to do, they would be the 1st to say so and that they would not have done such a remarkable job. Be glad that there are people that are willing to risk their lives to make the world a better place.

    JJC, glad to hear that you are not such a negative person!
    Cheers,

    Fiona Rich

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by fionarich
    JJC,

    You are claiming that Bush lied- there has been no evidence.

    If Saddam Hussein had no chemical weapons, why did coalition troops find so much chemical protective gear (both masks & suits)
    Fionarich
    1:- Where is the evidence?

    2:- I was a member of HM Forces and I had a respirator & suit as standard issue and as far as I was and am led to believe the Brit Government has got rid of WMD or Chemical weapons, so my equipment was for purely protection against an agressor not for me to wear against anyone else. So Saddam was only protecting his troops from a known country who uses chemical warfare ,the US of A, remember "Agent Orange" in Vietnam, so how does that make Bush innocent?
    And while I am on my high horse Why wont the US sign up to the agreement NOT to use and manufacture and sell Land mines as most Nato countries have.
    Golach

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by fionarich
    JJC,


    Most feel satisfied that the removal of Saddam Hussein's Regime has improved the plight of Iraqis and that the world is a better place overall, now that he has gone. His neighbors don't seem to miss him!

    Then why are the Iraqi's still fighting the Americans now?

  6. #26
    fionarich Guest

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    Golach wrote:

    "a known country who uses chemical warfare ,the US of A, remember "Agent Orange"
    in Vietnam, so how does that make Bush innocent?"


    To you Golach, I will point out that the Vietnam War was about 30 years ago- how that is related the current Iraqi conflict, I can't imagine. I don't see how Agent Orange being used years ago by a past president makes Bush guilty of anything- he would have been just a child at the time, and the US stopped using that sort of weapon decades ago.

    It is well known world-wide that neither the US nor Britain currently use chemical weapons as part of their arsenal of weapons- Saddam Hussein would know this. You seem to not know this, however.

    He has, however been known to use chemical weapons to attack his neighbors, as well as his own people. The BBC reported today that another mass grave has been found in Iraq- full of Iraqis killed after the conflict began. Perhaps you would like to petition to allow him and his family to request asylum in Britain and invite him to move in next door to you and your family. Perhaps you could swap gardening tips over a friendly cup of tea!

    Saddam Hussein, on the other hand is well known to have posessed chemical weapons as it was documented by the UN. He gassed a village of 5,000 Kurds a few years ago, just to test out some gas- and he videotaped the act, complete with people dying as it was being used. He has provided some of the truth himself by recording it.

    It was common knowledge during the Perisan Gulf War in 1991, that he had stockpiles of VX Nerve Agent and other toxins, as well as having Anthrax (the eqivalent of 5 million teaspoons), at one time. He made no secret of having such weapons and within days of Baghdad falling, there were containers found that are used to attach chemical agents to missles. If he didn't have any plans to use those containers to deliver chemical weapons at some point, (as he has in the past), then why would he keep them? For nostalgic reasons? I think not.

    Oh and just FYI, I have a gas mask as well as a MOPP (chemical) suit- both are current issue, just as I had the last version issued during the 1st Gulf War. As for the Vietnam War, I was born about that time, so I really have no personal experience as to that conflict.

    And Deacon Blue,

    I hardly think that a tiny minority of Baath party loyalists that are attacking coalition forces, located mostly in Falusia, (the region that Saddam Hussein is from, where he spent a great deal of money and has a great deal of family) consitute the entire country. Most Iraqis are happy to be free from the oppressive regime, and will be even more so once the situation there has stabalized and there is a government in place, which will happen but will take time.

    Be realistic- in a country where anti-American and anti-Western sentiment was taught as part of the normal school curriculum, and former Iraqi soldiers are angry that their threats of violence havn't resulted in them continuing to be paid, are you that surprised that SH continues to have some supporters?

    Saddam Hussein and his sons continue to be at large and there is likely a small minority that believes or at least hopes that that he will regain power. For all we know, it may be SH & his sons that are organizing the attacks on coalition troops.

    As for why the US does not sign up to the agreement NOT to use and manufacture and sell Land mines as most Nato countries have, how should I know? The only mines that I know the US to currently use are small (approx 5"x7" in size) above ground mines that are detonanted by running a wire from them, and detonated by hand- they are not buried or left behind to maim anyone and even so, they are rarely even used at all, compared to conventional weapons. They have no ability to self-detonate. I have no knowlege of the US using land mines in any recent years.

    I see that some people are upset because I state the fact that Americans are mostly in support of Bush.

    Cheers,

    Fiona Rich

  7. #27
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    Fiona, I am married to an American.

  8. #28
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    wondered why you were called Rich rahter than Dick sorry that was a cheap jibe
    On the subject of the Baath Party when did they become enemies anyway? The Baath party can also be found in Syria and Lybia, it is meant to be a socialist style organization, non denominational.
    Fiona whilst I started off a fair bit of this in my response, it was agianst American bashing per se and not pro-Bush. As someone who lives and works in the Middle East I can assure you that I have yet to meet a single Arab who thinks what America and the UK did was justified. They agree to a man that Sadam was a devil, but they see Bush as similar - whether that is right or wrong I am not commenting on, but that is how he is perceived.

  9. #29
    fionarich Guest

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    My apologies KW14...,

    I thought it was obvious that I was referring to the Baath party members in Iraq that enjoyed the benefits of being supporters of Saddam Hussein.

    I was replying to JJC's initial question- that Bush is supported mostly, here in the US, and that the majority of the population thinks that he is doing a good job and not an embarassment. I think that in light of the terrorist attacks, people seem to be glad that at least he is doing something that is seen as procative, rather than reactive. I am not trying to spark a debate as to whether it was the right decision or not- I think that that remains to be seen, and that only time will tell.


    Rich,

    Being married to an American certainly has not stopped you from being vehemently anti-American and believeing in all sorts of conspiracy theories, or from being extremely negative about Americans- you sound rather like a fanatic!!

    Cheers,

    Fiona Rich

  10. #30
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    Fiona, I will strive to mend my ways!

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by rich
    Fiona, I will strive to mend my ways!
    Please dont Rich, just when your beginning to win me over.

    As a matter of interest Fiona, Rich has never appeared anti American to me. He was always anti American government, and in light of recent events i can see why.
    On the other hand your blind support of President Bush and his cronies is much more frightening to me than Richs thought provoking and humerous posts. It wasnt until you suggested that the Fox news crowd were representative of the American people that i realised your right wing veiws were a throwback to the 80s and the worst ofThatcherism over here.
    I watched with disgust during the conflict as those so called news presenters of Fox News presented something akin to Nazi propaganda reports from various parts of the world. If anything, they were instrumental in turning me against the Bush Blair campaign.
    I dont believe they were representative of the majority of American people and if they were my heart despairs for the future of our world.
    It would be interesting to hear from other Americans who use this site to see if your extreme right wing veiws are shared by others.

  12. #32
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    Things I like about the United States:
    My wife.
    Jazz.
    The Carnegie Delicatessen.
    L.L. Bean
    Jogging in Central Park.
    The Marx Brothers.
    The Wire
    All of my friends and colleagues in the medical writing biz.
    Attending huge medical meetings in the Shoreham/Sheraton hotel complex in Washington DC.
    The Air and Space Museum in Washington.
    The trolley car from San Diego to Tijuana
    Riding cable cars in San Francisco and visitng Alcatraz.
    The Grand Canyon.
    The New Yorker.
    The New York Review of Books.
    Crime writer Elmore Leonard.
    Vermont in springtime.
    Chestnuts roasting.
    Jambalaya in New Orleans and a bar there with a collie dog.
    The Vampire Lestat
    Cephas and Wiggins (blues band)
    All of my many. many friends in the United States.
    I could go on....

  13. #33
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    and the things you like about Iraq?

  14. #34
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    A few randomly selected points:

    It is becoming more clear as time goes on that the US administration at least (don't know if the British one was in cahoots or deceived) not only mis-stated the facts about WMDs in Iraq, but KNEW it was mis-stating the facts. John Dean, who was involved in Watergate, recently wrote a piece (see http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature...mds/index.html ) maintaining that this should lead to Bush being impeached.

    Things I like about the USA:
    Living in it
    Da Blooz, especially at BB King's Club in LA.
    Big giant pancakes with maple syrup.
    The freedom to speak your mind (unless you're a country singer apparently)

    Things I don't like about the USA:
    A certain few of the people I share it with, most are fine.
    Corporate news media especially Fox - those people are just plain rude and intolerant of anyone who doesn't share their world view. How long would the BBC or ITV keep a chat show host who yells "Shut up" when losing an argument?
    Crappy drivers.

    Things I like about Iraq:
    It''s not close to where I am.
    It's really really far away.
    It's not next door.
    Distance...

    As for Bush: When the aliens land, I'll be embarrassed he's from the same SPECIES.

  15. #35
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    Default america

    What I like about Iraq is my friend Haike who I met at a party in Dundee years ago when he was at the Dundee Tech and I was writing balloons for DC Thomson. Our friendship continues as he is my neighbour in Toronto.
    I enjoy his sophistication, his wit, the extraordinarlily bad poetry that he writes and his endless complications with women. He also dances the tango very badly.
    Like many Iraquis life for Haike and his family has been extremely difficult.
    Haike is a liberal in plitics and no supporter of Sadam. His mother - in her late 70s - is living in Baghdad with one of his sisters and everyone is worried about her welfare.
    Haike is is glad to see the end of Sadam and would like the Americans to leave now or as soon as possible.
    He says that the current administration in the US is naive in the extreme.
    Fiona, I have been observing him closely for signs of fanaticism, for an indication that he is getting hot under the collar. He seems fine so far.
    I'll keep you posted....

  16. #36
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    Rich, of course you are right. I have travelled all over and have only ever met 2 types of people, they are either good or bad. I currently live in Saudi Arabia and have to say that the hospitality and welcome I recieve is incredible.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by kw14Ultra
    I currently live in Saudi Arabia and have to say that the hospitality and welcome I recieve is incredible.
    kw14 You should get a job with Blair & Bush Liars Inc. your spin puts even them to shame, The hospitality and welcome you receive from the Saudi's dont make me laugh, you must be wanting your next entry visa to come through or something to that effect I have lots of relations and friends working in Saudi just now and the only thing that keeps them there is the money they are being paid by American & Brit companys who are making mega bucks. Not one person I know has ever said they have been shown any hospitaliy by any Saudi either on the road in the Market or even on a plane.
    My Cousin was flying home from Riyahd recently by her self and her seat was the seat at the window she was settled down when a Saudi male kicked up such a stink with the cabin crew because he had to sit with a european woman she refused to move so they upgraded him to business class, call that hospitality and by the way she is from Scrabster so I beleive her
    Golach

  18. #38
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    There are only two types of people in the world: those that divide the world into two types of people, and those that don't.

  19. #39
    Anonymous Guest

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    Golach, I work for a Saudi company, I work with Saudis, I have a multi-entry/exit visa and I can leave when ever I like. I am telling you first hand that these people are very hospitable, if you care not to believe me fair enough - I am talking from first hand experience.

  20. #40
    Anonymous Guest

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    Actually just read your post agian Golach - hope you aint calling me a LIAR mate

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