Caithness Map :: Links to Site Map Paying too much for broadband? Move to PlusNet broadband and save£££s. Free setup now available - terms apply. PlusNet broadband.  
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 34

Thread: The Ghost in the Machine

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    4,003

    Default The Ghost in the Machine

    This follows on from the making music on a PC thread, some things I've been thinking about as I experimented with various software.

    The computer is a tool, like any other, man has been using tools to make music since he first hit a hollow rock with a stick or blew into a sea shell but at what point does it stop being the tool and become the musician? At what point does music become a science not an art? At what stage are you just painting by numbers?

    Seems to me with the software available I could just take a musical score and type it into the computer, tell it what instruments to use, press enter, sit back and listen but is that music? Can sounds with no soul be called music? Distilled water is tasteless, it's the imperfections in music which give it the flavour but imperfections can be programmed in. You can program a computer with the rules of harmony and random selection and it will compose music but can music created by a machine ever be described as beautiful?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,532

    Default

    Fred, like painting by numbers as opposed to original drawings/paintings, which do you like to look at most? I think I can guess the answer.....

    It's the same with music.

    I can listen to the best of recorded quality music at any time but we still go to "see" live music as there is nothing like being a part of it, be it listening, watching the players as they create the sounds or even lightheartedly dancing and singing along!

    Music created by computer has to be programmed so the user still has the satisfaction of being responsible for that music.

    Me, I'm still waiting for the computer that will put my shopping away even though it has been ordered electronically and delivered to my door!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    4,003

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Torvaig View Post
    Fred, like painting by numbers as opposed to original drawings/paintings, which do you like to look at most? I think I can guess the answer.....
    Yes but the question is at what point does it become painting by numbers? There is science in every work of art, every artist uses tricks even if it's just holding his thumb up to judge proportions.

    A good instrument could always make a good musician sound better but they could never make a bad musician sound good before. At what point are we just working the pedals on a pianola?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,532

    Smile

    I know what you mean Fred, but like a lot of things in life I don't think the answer is at all simple. The difference between hearing a good voice sing even with just a simple accompaniment and hearing a dodgy singer with either good musicians or machines that we can tweak is in the ear of the listener.

    For example, I have listened to some of the X-factor on't telly and even just last week when they were nearing the final process there was a female who sang (don't know who, I was in the next room) and I was constantly flinching at the flatness of some of her notes but she was carried along with the excellent music and the buoyancy of the crowd cheering and maybe is still in the running, I don't know. My point is how could the others not hear what I was hearing. I don't have a particularly exact ear but it had me cringing.

    Maybe it is the same with manufactured music; it is in the ear of the listener and unless you have a very keen ear I doubt if someone could tell the difference and I'm quite sure many people would prefer the machine music.

    There are many things in life that are changing due to more knowledge, new technology; even our very language is changing. Some things we cannot stop but we still have a choice.

    "A good instrument could always make a good musician sound better but they could never make a bad musician sound good before. At what point are we just working the pedals on a pianola?"

    Maybe we should appreciate the fact that nowadays the production of music is changing and part of the art is in knowing how to programme or tweak the machines? To my mind, as in art, one can complement the other with some followers of good music staying faithfull to raw instrument playing and the more adventurous adapting to modern ways and producing new, exciting sounds. (I have to admit to using a capo as it is much easier than learning all the chords I may need but then I am lazy!)

    I have no doubt that making music is now easier for those who maybe wouldn't have been able to master ordinary instruments but who can work machinery and lo and behold, they can produce a good commercial sound.

    I would like to think there is room for it all even though, for some of us diehards, never the twain shall meet!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Bower
    Posts
    982

    Default

    I still make music the old fashioned and best way. However to use a machine to produce as opposed to reproduce music is about musicality invention and musicianship.
    You only need to hear stuff Isaac has recorded to hear a live feel when he and John have played everything, not at the same time. They have the technology to do everything to make music perfect but can do it without losing the enthusiasm, spontaneity and excitement that others can often only do live. That isn't exactly whats asked but its about using technology to do more than you can do in real time.
    So can you programme music, no - you can programme a tune, some feeling and emotion is what makes it music. I do enjoy a lot of stuff that is remixed, Norman Cook sticks ecletic bits of stuff together to make songs that are at least the sum of some really good parts, I still feel its his musicianship that makes him master of the technology rather than the other way about.

    If you ever hear someone play the right notes at the right time without involvement or enthusiasm, it is the most dismal way to waste your time.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,532

    Default

    P.S.

    "At what point are we just working the pedals on a pianola?"

    I simply don't know......

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Bower
    Posts
    982

    Default

    Pushing the pedals - when we can't be bothered to be musicians any more.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,532

    Default

    "If you ever hear someone play the right notes at the right time without involvement or enthusiasm, it is the most dismal way to waste your time."

    So true Davem; emotions and feelings make the music. This is why I like folk music; the technicality can be dubious but if it comes from the heart.....

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by davem View Post
    I still make music the old fashioned and best way. However to use a machine to produce as opposed to reproduce music is about musicality invention and musicianship.
    You only need to hear stuff Isaac has recorded to hear a live feel when he and John have played everything, not at the same time. They have the technology to do everything to make music perfect but can do it without losing the enthusiasm, spontaneity and excitement that others can often only do live. That isn't exactly whats asked but its about using technology to do more than you can do in real time.
    So can you programme music, no - you can programme a tune, some feeling and emotion is what makes it music. I do enjoy a lot of stuff that is remixed, Norman Cook sticks ecletic bits of stuff together to make songs that are at least the sum of some really good parts, I still feel its his musicianship that makes him master of the technology rather than the other way about.

    If you ever hear someone play the right notes at the right time without involvement or enthusiasm, it is the most dismal way to waste your time.
    I think you possibly missed out the key ingrediant here..creative imagination, all the techy toys in the world amount to nothing unless the user is creative, thats the essence of it. ( this has been edited )
    Last edited by rob murray; 01-Nov-07 at 17:29. Reason: requested

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Bower
    Posts
    982

    Default

    Hi Rob that was the invention bit
    D

  11. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by davem View Post
    Hi Rob that was the invention bit
    D
    Aye thats it

  12. #12

    Default

    Do you notice how some of the other, let's say younger and more regular posters on this board have, so far, refrained from commenting on a subject that genuinely provokes worthy debate? Me neither. Because I've got nothing to add to it. Keep up the good work

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    In a great spot
    Posts
    1,786

    Default

    Chaps,
    Here's my take of this well trodden debate.

    I remember when I was much younger (with no mortgage, children etc!!!), spending, on an almost monthly basis, to acquire all the latest musical wonder-toys of the day (flashing lights, black mysterious boxes that looked from a science fiction movie . . . you get the picture).

    I would haul great racks of kit out into the public domain to strut my stuff with whatever band I happened to be gigging with at the time. And, yes these machines could make very impressive noises. I thought we were bound to be the latest local hit of the moment (just look at the impressive gear, listen to all the impressive sounds, we must be good!!).

    But more often than not, the punters just didn't seem to care about all that fancy stuff (at least, not in a way that I was) The odd musician might comment on a little aspect of it.

    At the end of the day (finally I come to my point), the musical listener just does not care how music has been produced, be it a scripted, computer generated, super orchestration on a synclavier ("Frank Zappa - Jazz from Hell" anyone - truly repulsive!!) to an old blues delta song recorded in the 1940's.

    Its all about personal taste and perception. If you like the sound, if it moves you in some way, all well and good. Who cares how its been created and by what method. Even the computer stuff needs someone to switch the machine on in the first place (is this counted as creativity?)
    All the world's a stage and we are merely players . . . . .
    For more visit: http://www.studiograff-photo.co.uk

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    in a house wi lights, but it is a light house
    Posts
    1,262

    Default

    I was swatting up on drum parts when I played with The Daintees & I listened to Long Hard Road (Salutation Road) & thought "how programmed does that sound" & then was listening to Boat To Bolivia (Boat To Bolivia) & thought "how well is the drummer playing that"

    On discussion with Martin I discovered that LHR was played & BTB had been programmed.....................so there

    it doesn't remove some of what's been said though in so far that virtual bass, guitar, keys, male & female vocals, orchestras & full kit set ups can be programmed to play parts even with "improvising" capabilities & some of this stuff is very real sounding & if it hadn't of been for the fact I knew I was listening to a demo of said technology I would've had no clue

    I have a computer based system running protools but mentally I try to treat it (as much as possible) like a tape environment where trying to get things in a take & getting them to sound right in the 1st place is primary to try & cut down on "fixing in the mix". In the full knowledge that one is in a non destructive platform the pressure is off should one need to "splice" bits in & out, it does generate an extreme amount of respect for people like Phil Spector, Joe Meek, George Martin, Les Paul etc etc to name but 4 greats who pioneered production in the early days of technology re: studioland

    I am constantly finding things out from old school sources that are making wondrous differences to my studio mindset & way of working

    drawing the line is hard in the face of sooooooooooooooooooooo many different ways of doing one thing alone. After time on one system you get to know what works for what etc etc & cut the choices down for mixdown. At the end of the day as Deemac said the listener doesn't really know or 90% of the time care what went on behind the scenes of Joe Bloggs' platinum selling album & sometimes it's hard to tell whether it's human or machine

    Not only has technology come on to a ludicrous extent but the world of music has gone technique crazy look at Terry Bozzio, Neil Peart & Billy Cobham to name but 3 drummers alone that can literally sound like a machine, the chops are that fast & precise. Neil Peart in particular I would put up against pretty much any drum machine

    anyhoo I kind of lost the point. It all comes down to how you feel about a piece of music whether it's played or computer programmed you don't think about it if you don't know. Certainly some of it is obviously programmed & yes sounds soulless but soom of it is very good at fooling the learned lug into thinking the player is great on that track when in actual fact it's all zeros & ones

    I'm off to my world of analog toys (valve compressor to be exact into a revox B77)
    Last edited by Chobbersjnr; 01-Nov-07 at 22:11.

  15. #15

    Default my uneducated guess..

    .. would be to get reason and some audio recording hardware. Unless its just a recording you want then go to pro tools or a mac, or both.

    More easy methods involve Reason/Cubase/Recycle/Acid/SF.

    and some kick ass hardware.

    Im running all my USB powered devices from this laptop, lol, and it works.

    woohoo, improvise.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Thurso
    Posts
    398

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Deemac View Post
    "Frank Zappa - Jazz from Hell" anyone - truly repulsive!!)
    I disagree this album showcased some of Zappas most amazing compositional feats - "Night School" is still stunning...what musician can play constant 64th notes without his/her fingers wilting?

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    In a great spot
    Posts
    1,786

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoebus_Apollo View Post
    I disagree this album showcased some of Zappas most amazing compositional feats - "Night School" is still stunning...what musician can play constant 64th notes without his/her fingers wilting?
    Phoebus, I'm glad you disagree with me. It just confirms my earlier points about personnal perception and taste variations.

    Though . . . . . . Excuss me if I miss your point, (I will re-check my Zappa biography) but as far as I'm aware there were no musicians actually playing on "Jazz from Hell". (So there would have been no sore fingers involved). Its all done on a machine - (The afore mentioned super-machine of its day - The Synclavier, Steve Lipson also produced most of Frankie Goes to Hollywood's "Welcome to the Pleasure Dome" & Grace Jones's - Slave to the Rhythm albums etc. on this very same machine - superb!!).

    Anyone for a "Fairlight"?
    All the world's a stage and we are merely players . . . . .
    For more visit: http://www.studiograff-photo.co.uk

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    My House
    Posts
    2,501

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Deemac View Post
    Phoebus, I'm glad you disagree with me. It just confirms my earlier points about personnal perception and taste variations.

    Though . . . . . . Excuss me if I miss your point....
    To quote yourself...

    Quote Originally Posted by Deemac View Post
    I assume you also have a faulty spellchecker!!

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    4,003

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chobbersjnr View Post
    it doesn't remove some of what's been said though in so far that virtual bass, guitar, keys, male & female vocals, orchestras & full kit set ups can be programmed to play parts even with "improvising" capabilities & some of this stuff is very real sounding & if it hadn't of been for the fact I knew I was listening to a demo of said technology I would've had no clue
    But don't you find it unnerving knowing the music is being played by a machine? The Japanese made a robot that looked human, artificial skin, human mannerisms and they had to change it, make it more robot like, it scared people.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    in a house wi lights, but it is a light house
    Posts
    1,262

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fred View Post
    But don't you find it unnerving knowing the music is being played by a machine? The Japanese made a robot that looked human, artificial skin, human mannerisms and they had to change it, make it more robot like, it scared people.
    I only fynd it uunervving wen I know itsa masheen

    back to normal---when I don't know what's involved, I don't think about what was employed to make the music. Although it does freak me out more & more as to just how obsolete the musician is becoming

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •