Sassenachs

[Kenn]

Can any one confirm that the word sassenach derives from the gael and is a corruption of saxon man in it's original usage before it became the term for any one not Scots?
Any information would be much appreciated.

[2little2late]

Quote from askoxford.com

Sassenach

/sassnak/ Scottish & Irish derogatory

• noun an English person.

• adjective English.

— ORIGIN Scottish Gaelic Sasunnoch, Irish Sasanach, from Latin Saxones ‘Saxons’.
http://www.askoxford.com/results/?vi...archtype=exact

[golach]

Lizz Sassanach is a Northern Scots name for a Lowland Scot as against a Highland Scot a "Teuchter

[MadPict]

I would agree with Golach on it meaning a lowland scot as opposed to anyone south of the border.

[hereboy]

its a derogatopry term meaning Saxon, Englishman or Lowlander according to various online sources.

Derogatory is the key- because for any number of years the border between England and Scotland was pretty fluid in terms of who lived there, it gets right up the lowland scots if they get called Sassenachs as it implies they are English. To Teuchters, lowlanders include everyone from lowland scots right on south until you get your feet wet - then its the french and thats a whole other derogatory term.... or alliance, depending on whether you are a Teuchter or a Sassenach!

[Rheghead]

Lizz Sassanach is a Northern Scots name for a Lowland Scot as against a Highland Scot a "Teuchter

No, Sassann means England and sassanaich means Englishman in Gaelic, similiarly Alba is Scotland and Albanaich means Scotman.

I think the term sassanach to describe a lowlander is meant to be an insult rather a proper description. Sassanach for an englishman is the proper translation.

[fred]

Lizz Sassanach is a Northern Scots name for a Lowland Scot as against a Highland Scot a "Teuchter

No, Sassann means England and sassanaich means Englishman in Gaelic, similiarly Alba is Scotland and Albanaich means Scotman.

I think the term sassanach to describe a lowlander is meant to be an insult rather a proper description. Sassanach for an englishman is the proper translation.

No, Sassanach means Saxon and would have been used to refer to someone who spoke a Teutonic language and had a Teutonic culture.

According to Sir Ian Moncrief:

Scotland is in the main made up of five formerly seperate realms, three of which spoke Celtic languages in historic times, while the other two were founded by more recent Teutonic conquerors who did not exterminate the subjugated Celtic peoples in their territories.

While the Teutonic peoples would have been predominately in the Lowlands there would still have been Celts there as well, who would not have been known as Sassanachs.

It wasn't a geographic thing, Scots just wern't geographic people in the old days, there has never been a King of Scotland, only a King of Scots, he was the Chief of Chiefs, the Head of Heads, he ruled over people not land.

[hereboy]

It wasn't a geographic thing, Scots just wern't geographic people in the old days, there has never been a King of Scotland, only a King of Scots, he was the Chief of Chiefs, the Head of Heads, he ruled over people not land.

Fred, I beg to differ - it has always been a geographic thing - from pre-history through the Romans and beyond -check out Magnus Magnusson's - "Scotland: The Story of a Nation" if you are looking for enlightenment...it is a long read 700+ pages but it has pictures

[lassieinfife]

Can any one confirm that the word sassenach derives from the gael and is a corruption of saxon man in it's original usage before it became the term for any one not Scots?
Any information would be much appreciated.

I was taught that a sassenach is an English person living out with England ....but I must say I hate the word, just as I hate the term "jock" .... that to me is a private in a Scottish Regt and not a Scot living outwith Scotland

[Rheghead]

lassieinfife, many jocks are happy to be called jock, I know of many jocks the most famous being Jock Stein, hardly a traditional Scottish surname...

Fred, the question was put on the Gael translation of Sassannaich, I gave an explanation, I am only learning Gaelic but a more fluent speaker may give a better explanation. If you look up Sassann in a Gaelic dictionary you will get your answer in black and white.

I am the first poster to 1000 posts,I'm at the top of the Castle and you're the dirty Rascal, ner ner ne ner ner

[fred]

It wasn't a geographic thing, Scots just wern't geographic people in the old days, there has never been a King of Scotland, only a King of Scots, he was the Chief of Chiefs, the Head of Heads, he ruled over people not land.

Fred, I beg to differ - it has always been a geographic thing - from pre-history through the Romans and beyond -check out Magnus Magnusson's - "Scotland: The Story of a Nation" if you are looking for enlightenment...it is a long read 700+ pages but it has pictures

In those 700 pages does it mention the Clan System anywhere?

In England who a man was and where his allegiances were depended on where he was born but in Scotland it was a tribal system, very much like the Jewish people where they trace their families back to common ancestors and as where he is in the world a Jew is always a Jew no matter how many generations have passed. That is why the head of a Clan is called the Chief, it has exactly the same meaning as in a tribe of Native Americans or Africans.

As where they are in the world a Campbell is always a Campbell and a McDonald always a McDonald. There are plenty of Scots Americans and Irish Americans but I don't recall anyone calling themselves an English American.

The people had territories alright but that wasn't the most important thing, the territories changed, the people stayed the same. Where someone lived didn't matter, it was who his ancestors were that counted.

[Rheghead]

To be honest what is the difference between a king of the people and a king of the land?
in a nutshell, none.

[lassieinfife]

[quote="Rheghead"]lassieinfife, many jocks are happy to be called jock, I know many jocks the most famous being Jock Stein, hardly a traditional Scottish surname...

Rheghead........... I have no problem with the name Jock .......usually a corruptionog John,and I myself know plenty so named, what I do object to is being called a "Jock" usually in a derogatory manner,...I was brought up in a scottish regt and to me a "Jock" is an army private.........Or a Scot living outwith Scotland

[Kenn]

Many thanks for the info folks most of it seems to point in the same direction as my original source quoted.
Rheghed I don't speak the gaelic but you might be interested to know that where I come from all non natives are refered to as sawsenaks.
Surprised you dind n't know that Mad Pict

[fred]

To be honest what is the difference between a king of the people and a king of the land?
in a nutshell, none.

The world of difference, to understand a word you must understand the minds of the people using it.

To us the word Sassenach means someone who is not a Scot but to the people who first used the word it would have meant someone who was a Scot.

That is a whole lot of difference.

[golach]

I think this is a better explanation from the Dictionary of Scottish Language

DSL - SND1 SASSENACH, adj., n. Also Sassanoch, -enagh, Sasennach, -unnach; the form in the 1706 quot. represents the Gael.pl. Sasunnaich. English, English-speaking, formerly also applied to the Lowlanders of Scotland; as a n., an Englishman or -woman. The word was orig. put in the mouths only of Highlanders but is now in somewhat jocular use throughout Scotland.

[Gael. sasunnach, Saxon, English, an Englishman, an English-speaking Lowlander of Scotland, the Scots and English languages not being differentiated in Gael.]

A Highland term for any English speaker, be they Lowland Scot or Englander

[hereboy]

In those 700 pages does it mention the Clan System anywhere?

It mentions clans and tribes from beginning to end - a detailed description of the clans no, but whats your point? The clan system was all but over by the time the term Sassenach was first recorded in print.

As where they are in the world a Campbell is always a Campbell and a McDonald always a McDonald.

Ah yes, but are they a Campbell of Cawdor or a Campbell of Argyll? You have to weave a place name into your history for it to be authentic... You se Geography is important.

Where someone lived didn't matter, it was who his ancestors were that counted.

It was who his ancestors were and where they lived that mattered. See point above.

You mentioned yourself earlier that Moncrief spoke of the 5 realms of Scotland - I assume these were geographic realms?

I like Golach's definition...

[fred]

You mentioned yourself earlier that Moncrief spoke of the 5 realms of Scotland - I assume these were geographic realms?

I think the bit about three Celtic and two Teutonic shows where the emphasis lay.

I like Golach's definition...

So do I, I think it illustrates perfectly what I was saying. To the Gael everyone posting to this message board would have been a Sassenach as where they lived. They would have been Sassenachs because they use a Teutonic language and have Teutonic customs, geography wouldn't come into it. Drawing an imaginary line across the land and saying that everyone born on one side is one thing and everyone born on the other is something else is a concept they just wouldn't have had. Notice in Golachs definition that the Gaels made no distinction between English and Scots.

[golach]

Sorry Fred its not MY definition it came directly from this web site
http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/
and the Highlanders or the Gaels only made a definition to Sassanachs as Non Gaelic speakers, so as I dont speak Gaelic but was born in Caithness of Caithness blood (and I can trace my liniage back to 1750 and all in Caithness, ) I must be a Sassanach in the true definition, but I feel as if I am a Teuchter