How many grams per day?

[MadPict]

Nice bit of copy and paste from the BARF site there Julia....

So you obviously dont know that you NEVER give a cooked bone of any sort to an animal, isnt that being irresponsible??

My wife is a qualified vet nurse, now teaching animal care (including nutrition) and I have had years of experience with the care (and training) of working dogs.

I never stated that you should give dogs cooked bones.

I have looked at the BARF site (bad choice of acronym IMO) and of course it has links to food manufacturers (oh what a surprise).

How do you know that what they say is in the packet really is? Just like the big companies like Pedigree eh?........

Everyone is entitled to care for their animals in whatever way they see as appropriate but until you have tried it, dont knock it!

Don't deny that right - but just because you think it is right for your dog doesn't mean it is right for every dog. Just as I would not tell you not to be a vegan (if that were your choice).

Our dog is now 12 and her dental health is excellent. Even the canine she broke several years ago has not caused her problems. Just training a pet to accept teeth being brushed from an early age can help. But then you would probably claim that is all hype? "Flavoured toothpaste? BAH!! Rubbish!!!"

And just as you have GPs who suspect the MMR jabs as causing problems you have Vets and others in the field who claim that over vaccinating animals causes problems. We have seen the argument from the 'sharp end' if you want.

[crustyroll]

Sure, giving a dog a bone or raw hide chew now and again to ensure dental health is a good idea but I would never give a dog a bone small enough to be eaten in one go. Cooked or uncooked...

This is where I picked up the response of cooked or uncooked from....obviously I picked you up incorrectly, so possibly others have too?

As to what is in the packets of food for Barfers, I don't do BARF, I do Raw Meaty Bones. Most of the stuff I feed my dogs on is not minced and packaged, it's whole carcasses, whole heart chunks, rabbits, fish, liver, meaty bones and I know where all of it has come from. The packets do not have cereal in them, or so it says, so yes it's taken at face value but its easy to see that even if there is, it can't be as much as whats in kibble.

Sorry to say but I havent yet met a qualified vet nurse that agrees with raw feeding and why? Because, again most of them are getting the same training and information that are given to the student vets.

Teeth brushing isnt hype, but not all dogs are happy to have this done, no matter what age you start. Just like I will concede that a raw diet doesn't suit all dogs. However I am more inclined to believe that the natural digestive system of a dog is suited to raw meat, bones, offal, vegetable matter than to processed and manufactured dog food. We (humans) haven't changed their digestive systems no matter how much food companies claim we have. You only have to look at a litter of raw fed pups to see how nature takes over and they KNOW EXACTLY how and in what order to crunch down a chicken wing to digest it.

There is no point in saying that "Vets and others in the field who claim that over vaccinating animals causes problems" It has actually been proven that it does, the literature is out there, we just don't get to see it until we go looking for it.

Do you know that vets are meant to tell you the side effects of prescribed medicines for your dogs? How many have had all the side effects listed and what reactions can occur?

Now you'll think that I'm anti-vet, which I am not, my last dog had many a trip in her old age to the vet and she was well treated. I now ask many questions and don't take what every vet says as being gospel. They are human and can get it wrong and it is our animals lives that are at stake. We must speak up for them and if that means not following convention like little sheep, then so be it.

How many people out there know that Parvo didn't exist until 1979 and that it is believed to have developed from a cat vaccine?

[MadPict]

Sorry to say but I havent yet met a qualified vet nurse that agrees with raw feeding and why? Because, again most of them are getting the same training and information that are given to the student vets.

You implying that all RVNs are brainwashed? How many RVNs have you met? There are almost 4000 in the UK....

See how easy it is to misread a statement?

We (humans) haven't changed their digestive systems no matter how much food companies claim we have.

Humans (breeders) have tried to alter everything else...

[crustyroll]

You implying that all RVNs are brainwashed? How many RVNs have you met? There are almost 4000 in the UK....

Humans (breeders) have tried to alter everything else...

And you won't have either, so I can only go on the ones I have met. When people are advised to take advice from their vet or RVN whose to say that they are actually correct? The BVA or the Royal College? Probably, but who do they get a lot of their funding from?? Not everyone is brainwashed, but don't say something is wacko when you haven't tried it, just like I haven't said any commercial dog food is a wacko diet.

Oh, I'm at the top of the list then considering I'm a dog breeder.

[Julia]

Nice bit of copy and paste from the BARF site there Julia....

Why thank you MadPict, I learnt that there in college you know!

[MadPict]

My wife teaches VNs. Her college is not linked to the RCVS.

I stated earlier that our present dog was fed a wacko diet prior to us getting her as a puppy - we believe strongly that it was the cause of her early problems.

Will you as a breeder accept that the human drive to "improve" certain breeds does more harm than good?

My dog is sitting looking at me waiting to go out so I must get my priorities right........

[crustyroll]

Well I do have 'normal' dogs that aren't too different from what they originally started out.

Yes, there are breeds of dogs out there that have been bred wrongly and altered too much but while we are in control of animals, it will always happen, unfortunately.

[MadPict]

What do you breed? (avatar a clue?)

[lexie]

thought you should never feed bones to a dog?...thats what the vet told us when we got the boyo as a pup.....

i know my beastie never gets bones ....'cept gravy bones!

[jsherris]

Can I just pop my head above the parapet a touch here....

Our vet is a raw food feeder herself - she has 2 lovely springer spaniels, glowing with health & energy & she was a great help when we first got our little cavalier from the RSPCA.
He had been badly treated & is now deaf - thanks to the previous owner & his boots But although he was extremely nervous around food when we first got him, he's fine now & enjoys his food just as much as the dustbin... I mean basset!

So, not ALL vets are against raw foods - some of them have come over to the dark side..........

[crustyroll]

thought you should never feed bones to a dog?...thats what the vet told us when we got the boyo as a pup.....

i know my beastie never gets bones ....'cept gravy bones!

You should never ever feed cooked bones to a dog, they are much softer and splinter much worse than a raw bone.

When feeding raw meaty bones or things like rabbit, a lot of the bone is still covered in meat when it is swallowed. Most dogs have retained the natural ability to eat a bone in a certain order and break it down in the right way for digestion. There are some that struggle at first and you need to help them by holding onto the bone, chicken wing, rabbit leg etc.

There is also confusion in that a big dog will choke on a small pieces, ie chicken wing. I do know of dogs that when starting out have tried to swallow a wing whole and instead of actually choking they barf it back up! They will keep trying until they realise how to crunch it and once they've learnt they never forget.

I have Labradors and they all get chicken wings, the dogs range in size from 10 week old pups, a 4 month old and 3 adult dogs. The only thing I give in smaller portions to the pups are turkey necks as the meat is very tough with lots of bone.

JSherris - I have heard of vets that don't condem raw feeding and I think most vets realise that a raw bone is good for a dog. However, if you logically think about it, how many vets would advise this? They could be in a sticky situation if a dog did have a bone stuck (it can happen although rare) and the insurance company found out that a bone was given on the vets advice?

I am not anti-kibble, in fact, my dogs started out on some of the best kibble out there! I now have happier, healthier dogs on raw and would recommend it to anyone. Unfortunately, as other raw feeders have told me as well, we get shot down in flames for not following the 'norm'. Fifty odd years ago, we would have been the 'norm' and all the owners feeding kibble would have been the 'wackos'

[jsherris]

JSherris - I have heard of vets that don't condem raw feeding and I think most vets realise that a raw bone is good for a dog. However, if you logically think about it, how many vets would advise this? They could be in a sticky situation if a dog did have a bone stuck (it can happen although rare) and the insurance company found out that a bone was given on the vets advice?

Yep, I hear what you're saying here. Ruth didn't ever recommend a raw food diet - it was me who first talked to her about it, because my ex in-laws were alsatian breeders (still are) & that's when I first started feeding dogs this way - back in the late 70's. She then told me that she followed this with her 2 dogs & then we find out that we use the same butchers shop! We swapped a few tips - she couldn't get her girls to eat fruit... they do now, as long as it's mixed with natural yoghurt!
In the surgery however, are the normal posters up advertising for the top dog food brands, as you'd expect, I think sometimes just like doctors, it's a case of 'do as I say, not as I do' for the majority of clients - that's the impression I get anyway.
My boys get a mixture of butchers bones & meats and prepacked meats with biscuits, fruits & veggies - it might not be everyone's way, but it's our way & it works for us.

At least, I've never seen the boys refuse a meal yet!