Oh Great!!!
Away this lot is just as bad
What happens to balance?
We have gone from Fred - dont shoot any of them to Away - Shoot them all. There has to be a balance - there has to be tolerence and understanding and there has to be respect
.Orger
Freds another idiot
Fred your a total prat, as with many of the other do gooder postings Ive read with interest regarding whats happening in london. None of you live there or amongst whats happening and therefore your opinions count for nothing. As for the guy being shot, what do we do wait till he detonates his "BIG JACKET" on a train full of people, no I think not, Ive even read you ranting about Palistine/Gazza and alsorts, and as with both these areas, how long do you think it took them to realise a 14 year old with an AK47 in his hands was as danegrous as a grown man, to late once the triggers been pulled, lets not take the chance eh, drop him I say. And as for all these idiots that sing oooooh poor muslim, WE dont let them integrate, rubbish, they dont want to be part of british society, and choose to alienate themselves. I think Ive even read someone spouting the fact that they are ill educated and unemployed is down to us to, hahaha again utter rubbish. Since this country has become a happy hunting ground for freeloaders, they don't even make any effort to learn the language, hence unemployable, hence unwilling to learn, the country is getting crazy by the time a BRITISH teacher can be sacked for not being able to speak Urdu, and its people just like yourself causing it, hmmmmmm I bet there are many employment situations arise in caithness, where by your not allowed to put your ham sandwhiches in the fridge for fear of upsetting your muslim collegue. Waken up the world is changing, believe it or not.
1K.Orger
Oh Great!!!
Away this lot is just as bad
What happens to balance?
We have gone from Fred - dont shoot any of them to Away - Shoot them all. There has to be a balance - there has to be tolerence and understanding and there has to be respect
Banned
Yes, "the end justifies the means" tactics, the "it's OK killing innocent people so long as it's in a good cause" tactics.Originally Posted by squidge
You said
The suicide bomber are here because of tactics like these?????????????
You don't honestly think these bombings arn't as a direct result of our invasions if Iraq and Afghanistan do you?
Banned
Yes, "the end justifies the means" tactics, the "it's OK killing innocent people so long as it's in a good cause" tactics.
You said
The suicide bomber are here because of tactics like these?????????????
You don't honestly think these bombings arn't as a direct result of our invasions if Iraq and Afghanistan do you?
Banned
I didn't say that. If the police know with a reasonable degree of certainty that someone is a suicide bomber and they know with a reasonable degree of certainty that they are carrying explosives then I say shoot them and shoot for the head.
But that isn't what is happening, a senior police officer has made a statement that there is a shoot to kill policy and that there is every possibility that more innocent people are going to be shot by the police. This isn't a case of shooting as a last resort this is a case of if in doubt shoot and if a few innocent people get killed along the way it's just hard lines.
Lets face it if someone points a gun at you and you think they are going to use it you have every right to shoot them first that's self defence but you can't just go round shooting people then say "well they might have had a gun".
1K.Orger
AS i understand it from reading the BBC website and others the man came out of a building that was under survellance. he ran when approached and was wearing unusual clothing for the time of year, he vaulted a ticket barrier and refused to stop when asked. I am NOT saying that this is justifiable but to liken it to some sort of place where police killings of innocente passers by are routine, or to liken it to a situation where there is a war going on doesnt make sense
.Orger
I never stated shoot them all, the capital is in a high state of security just now. Therefore if told to stop, I certainly wouldnt be thinking of, hmmmmmm oh I'll just jump on this train. Balance, HA don't make me laugh. Im not even refering to the muslims who came hear and were subject to hard times in the past, those have proven that they can integrate with the british way of life, Im refering to since the country has opened it doors, and doesnt even know what its letting in. These are the people who wrongly feel that we should change our ways of life to accomodate them, rubbish they should remember what country they choose to come to. The same as if I got caught drinking in their parts of the world or stealing, Id either be flogged or have my hands cut off. They don't help themselves, and people like you that actually make it into governemt positions are making them expect even more. what about us some of us have been paying taxes into this country all our working days, rasheed maroof muhamed steps of the plane at heathrow with his 7 kids and three wives, and gets his social security forms filled out for him (cause he cant speak english), handed cash to see him through till his giro arrives, and a taxi to his new council house (cause he cant use public transport), the same council house that if I went on a housing list for Id have to wait 10yrs, then sits back every week waiting for his giro and all other benefits, casue do gooders make him aware of what he's entitled do, and makes absolutely no effort to learn the language, nor none of his family. Balance as I say dont make me laugh, the looneys have got in power cause of listening to people like you, the same looneys that put our own troops over to get involved in americas war
1K.Orger
I already answered this but as you took the trouble to ask me twice i will tell you again.
The war in iraq is NOT the reason there are suicide bombers. The reason there are suicide bombers is cos there are evil people who use whatever tools they can to sell their particular brand of hatred and they would do this without the war in iraq - they would simply use somethng else.
Its never ok killing innocent people ever, but comparing the decision the police officers made to decisions made in the iraq war doesnt make sense
.Orger
Shooting him multiple times is standard procedure in this kind of situation. Once a threat has been identified, it has to be neutralised. They shoot them from the spinal cord to the brain to make sure nervous system shuts down stopping the fingers from reacting in a way that may trigger the bomb.
1K.Orger
Fred,
You should be grateful that some people are willing to put their lives on the line to protect innocent members of the public and you should not be so quick to condemn purely on what you read in the red tops or hear on Sky news.
As pointed out the guy had lived in the UK for 3 years so he was well aware of the security situation in the UK and spoke good english so any challenge would have been understood.
Whilst these police officers may have been in plain clothes leading up to the confrontation they would have donned police firearms hats to identify themselves as police - for their own safety and for ease of identification to the public.
Yes it was sad that this person died as the result of this operation, but who is to blame? The police or the terrorists? I blame the terrorists who by their actions have forced what was one a police force which prided itself on not having the need to carry firearms, unlike almost every other force in the world, to have to consider deploying them on a widespread basis.
The officers involved in this tragedy had a split second to make a decision - what decisions have you had to make today? "Oh shall I have a coffee with my toast this morning?"
I don't know where you live, but I know people who were one train away from the events of 7/7 and I was due to go to London that day and would have used the lines affected. People in my region lost relatives in this outrage.
I think that we should all stop speculating and passing judgement on an event we have not the slightest clue about and let the Independent Police Complaints Commission sort out what actually happened
1K.Orger
Well people like me have been listening to ill informed and ignorant people like you spout off about the social security system and immigrants for the last thirty years and i havent heard one of you get it RIGHT yet!!!!! Its the same racist twaddle thats been spouted for years and its boring dull unimaginative and wrong and more this particular point it neither helps understand the issues or contribute to resolving them.
How about if i add GO infront of your name and you follow that instruction
Banned
Well now there is one innocent member of the public they didn't do a very good job of protecting.
1K.Orger
The actions of an innocent man?The Brazilian man shot dead by police who mistook him for a suicide bomber in south London had been in Britain on an out-of-date visa, security sources say.
Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, may have run from police because of his visa situation, BBC correspondents say.....
....When he was challenged by police in the Tube station, he fled, reportedly leaping the ticket barrier.
Over the past year there have been an increased number of immigration checks at Tube stations - a policy widely reported in Brazilian newspapers.
But if they failed to do their job and he had been a suicide bomber you no doubt would be the first to stand up and accuse them of being incompetant - damned whichever way they turn.
Maybe you want to accuse the Met Police of having death squads as well ala those in many Brazilian cities .....
1K.Orger
This guy was an electrician working in the UK legally. What things are like in his home country is nothing to do with the way Police in this country should be operating. For the record he was not shot 5 times, he was shot EIGHT times, with seven shots being in his head. If Police thought he was a suicide bomber then why did they let him board a bus where he may have detonated it? He should surely have been challenged where there was least danger to the public. This man was not sponging off UK benefits he was earning his way and who knows what fears may have been going through his own mind in the current climate.The actions of an innocent man?The Brazilian man shot dead by police who mistook him for a suicide bomber in south London had been in Britain on an out-of-date visa, security sources say.
Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, may have run from police because of his visa situation, BBC correspondents say.....
....When he was challenged by police in the Tube station, he fled, reportedly leaping the ticket barrier.
Over the past year there have been an increased number of immigration checks at Tube stations - a policy widely reported in Brazilian newspapers.
But if they failed to do their job and he had been a suicide bomber you no doubt would be the first to stand up and accuse them of being incompetant - damned whichever way they turn.
Maybe you want to accuse the Met Police of having death squads as well ala those in many Brazilian cities .....
1K.Orger
Legally?
You know he was paying his taxes?
If he was on a student visa with restricted work conditions I doubt if he was.
But that is incidental to the subject. I raaised the situation in Brazil to try and counter the drivel being posted by Fred.
As for how the police here operate now in the current climate is probably for the members of ACPO to decide.
Shot 5 times? 8 Times? Allowed to board a bus? Blah blah blah. All points raised/whipped up by the media - and all points which, as I have said before, will be investigated by the IPCC.
Stop speculating about what happened.
Banned
No, it is already decided by the law and no one is above the law.
As I see it the officers either acted outside current police code of practice in which case they broke British law and that law would have to be murder or they acted inside current police code of practice in which case the police are in direct contravention of the European Convention on Human Rights Section 1 Article 2 and are breaking European law.
There is precedent, in 1988 the SAS shot dead three members of the IRA in Gibraltar, they actually were terrorists and they had gone to Gibraltar to plant a bomb but the SAS shot them the day before the bomb was due to go off at a time when they were no threat to anyone. The defence was that the IRA members could have planted the bomb already and could have had remote detonation devices. The British Government were found guilty by the European Court of Human Rights in 1995.
1K.Orger
That sounds horrible! Like cows in a slaughterhouse!
I see the neccessity, in the case of a bomber. What i still can't understand is, if he was suspected of carrying a bomb, why did they let him get on a bus before he even got to the tube station?
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
1K.Orger
Wish we could all live in the sweet fluffy world you inhabit. They were terrorists. If they didn't succeed murdering innocent tourists and soldiers in Gibraltar then they would have done it somewhere else. London, Birmingham, a barrack town in Germany or N Ireland.
Unlike the IRA this new breed of murdering lowlife scum do not give coded warnings nor do they differentiate between "legitimate military targets" and innocent civilians. They are out to kill anyone, even other Muslims. They are happy to sacrifice themselves in their warped version of Islam.
We are all the enemy. Infidels. The goal posts have moved, the rules are not the same, so new rules have been written.
We'll let the ECHR judges sitting in their nice comfy offices find the UK government guilty if that is what happens down the road.
"London Mayor Ken Livingstone described Mr Menezes as a "victim of the terrorist attacks".
He said: "Consider the choice that faced police officers at Stockwell last Friday - and be glad you did not have to take it.""
1K.Orger
Mmm, you tell me to stop speculating but speculate even more yourself. By the way, it is official that he was shot eight times, that is not speculation.
I listened live on Sky news to an eyewitness who was right there when it happened. Do you think he was speculating? The Police here will operate on the way the government tell them to operate and the government are voted in by the people. My vote is the equal of yours no matter how much you might think you are superior. The Police in London are being paid damn well to do a job they voluntarily went into, If they can't cut it they should get out. It is not all about helping old wifies across the road and directing the social underclasses to the nearest offy for a bottle of Bucky.
By your logic the terrorists do not differentiate between "legitimate targets" and innocent civilians. If the Police are going about killing innocent people then can you please explain in what way they are any different?
"Police intelligence" remains an oxymoron, with more balls-ups than a Pawnbrokers convention over the years. Just a while back the Police were getting gyp on here about their lack of success in tackling the local neds, all of a sudden they are the greatest thing since sliced bacon. Bobby Shaftoe becomes Bobby Dazzler.
ps ACPO is ACOP out. Thanks to the late and lamented Richard Whitley for that anagram
Banned
[quote="MadPict"]You think a cluster bomb doesn't kill innocent civilians? America dropped 11,000 cluster bombs on Iraq during the invasion, Britain 2,000, they are still killing people, mostly children who are inquisitive when they find a piece of unexploded ordnance.
If you want to know what motivates the terrorists then all you have to do is look at the fear and hatred in your own heart after one bomb attack then multiply it by a million.
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