Shipping between Wick and Leith

**Kingetter** · 23-Aug-07, 03:54

How would one find out about shipping between Wick and Leith say in the mid 1800s? A James Cormack (wife Margaret Green) was a ship master who used to run merchant shipping from Wick.

James.

**fred** · 23-Aug-07, 08:37

Originally Posted by Kingetter

How would one find out about shipping between Wick and Leith say in the mid 1800s? A James Cormack (wife Margaret Green) was a ship master who used to run merchant shipping from Wick.

James.

In 1851 at the age of 27 he was Master of the "Brave" ticket number 37209.

**Kingetter** · 23-Aug-07, 09:02

Fred, thanks very much. You're a veritable library of information. Could I be greedy and ask if there's anything else about either him/family or the ship, please?

James.

**fred** · 23-Aug-07, 18:26

Originally Posted by Kingetter

Fred, thanks very much. You're a veritable library of information. Could I be greedy and ask if there's anything else about either him/family or the ship, please?

James.

Here's the ship's crewlist, that's all I've got.

Coghill Alexander
Current Ship: BRAVE of Wick Trade: Home
Age: 18
Born: Wick Ticket No: 284096
Seaman
Date Joined: 14 May 1851 Place Joined: Wick
Date Left: 14 Jul 1851 Place Left: Wick Why Left: Discharged
Previous Ship: MARY ANN of Banff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sinclair Alexander
Current Ship: BRAVE of Wick Trade: Home
Age: 22
Born: Thurso Ticket No: 284180
Seaman
Date Joined: 19 Jul 1851 Place Joined: Wick
Date Left: 17 Sep 1851 Place Left: Wick Why Left: Discharged
Previous Ship: SOVERIGN of Wick
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brown Charles
Current Ship: BRAVE of Wick Trade: Home
Age: 27
Born: Greenwich Ticket No: 7423
Mate
Date Joined: 01 Jul 1851 Place Joined: Wick
Date Left: Remains Place Left: Why Left:
Previous Ship: BRAVE of Wick
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
McKay George
Current Ship: BRAVE of Wick Trade: Home
Age: 18
Born: Wick Ticket No: 284171
Seaman
Date Joined: 01 Jul 1851 Place Joined: Wick
Date Left: Remains Place Left: Why Left:
Previous Ship: BRAVE of Wick
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Small James
Current Ship: BRAVE of Wick Trade: Home
Age: 22
Born: Wick Ticket No: 54047
Mate
Date Joined: 01 Jan 1851 Place Joined: Wick
Date Left: 18 Mar 1851 Place Left: Helmsdale Why Left: Discharged
Previous Ship: BETSY of Banff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wares James
Current Ship: BRAVE of Wick Trade: Home
Age: 22
Born: CAI Ticket No: 284221
Seaman
Date Joined: 13 Sep 1851 Place Joined: Wick
Date Left: 10 Dec 1851 Place Left: Wick Why Left: Discharged
Previous Ship: BRAVE of Wick
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sinclair James
Current Ship: BRAVE of Wick Trade: Home
Age: 23
Born: Thurso Ticket No: 72962
Mate
Date Joined: 18 Jul 1851 Place Joined: Wick
Date Left: 17 Sep 1851 Place Left: Wick Why Left: Discharged
Previous Ship: HARMONY of Belfast
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cormack James
Current Ship: BRAVE of Wick Trade: Home
Age: 27
Born: Wick Ticket No: 37209
Master
Date Joined: 01 Jan 1851 Place Joined: Wick
Date Left: Remains Place Left: Why Left:
Previous Ship: BRAVE of Wick
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doull John
Current Ship: BRAVE of Wick Trade: Home
Age: 18
Born: Wick Ticket No: 275794
Seaman/Mate
Date Joined: 03 Apr 1851 Place Joined: Wick
Date Left: 14 Jul 1851 Place Left: Wick Why Left: Discharged
Previous Ship: THISTLE of Wick
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Johnston Peter
Current Ship: BRAVE of Wick Trade: Home
Age: 23
Born: CAI Ticket No: 284218
Mate
Date Joined: 11 Sep 1851 Place Joined: Wick
Date Left: Remains Place Left: Why Left:
Previous Ship: THISTLE of Wick
Comments:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tait William
Current Ship: BRAVE of Wick Trade: Home
Age: 43
Born: DUR Ticket No: 54037
Mate
Date Joined: 03 Apr 1851 Place Joined: Wick
Date Left: 12 May 1851 Place Left: Wick Why Left: Discharged
Previous Ship: GANNET of Belfast
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**Kingetter** · 26-Aug-07, 00:12

Very many thanks Fred - all valuable information.

Cheers,

James.

**Peterd500** · 13-Sep-07, 02:48

James

What is your interest in James CORMACK & Margaret GREEN?

Margaret GREEN is related to me via SINCLAIR. She was the daughter of Walter GREEN & Margaret SUTHERLAND, daughter of John SUTHERLAND & Isabella SINCLAIR, daughter of Robert SINCLAIR & Helen BREMNER, brother to my ancestor James SINCLAIR the chamberlain (1=Anna ROBERTSON, 2=Elspet SINCLAIR). The brothers Robert & James were sons of Donald SINCLAIR the sailor, son of David SINCLAIR of Broynach and his second wife Janet EWAN or EWING.

In the last week I made good progress by contacting three living descendants of James CORMACK & Margaret GREEN in Glasgow, Australia and Nashville, Tennessee.

I descend from the second marriage of James SINCLAIR the chamberlain to Elspet SINCLAIR.

Peter Sinclair Dillon
Christchurch, New Zealand

**Tricia** · 13-Sep-07, 17:32

Hi Peter
Welcome to this group.
We have exchanged before via Rootschat - James was also there.
You and I talked about David Sinclair Margaret More subject.

I also am hoping I can link direct to this Cormack family .
I have many Cormack in Caithness and also Cormack and MacKenzie in Tain area Ross-shire.

Tricia
born a MORE in Wick
now in Banbury England

**Peterd500** · 15-Sep-07, 02:26

Hi Tricia

yes I recognised you on some of the threads when I browsed.

One of the correspondents I mentioned has it that James (=Margaret GREEN) was the son of William CORMACK 1783-1858 (1815 =Charlotte JACK 1784-1862) son of James CORMACK (1780=Margaret DOULL) son of James CORMAC.

peter

**Mamie_2** · 25-Sep-07, 18:09

I am quite convinced that this man was the son of John Cormack and Elizabeth Thomson christened in 1823.

This is based on research I did for one of Peter's correspondent (Paul). The decision is based on age at death and names of James and Margaret's children.

Elizabeth c 1853
Walter c 1855
John 1856-1856
James 1857
George William or John 1858
Margaret 1860
George 1867
I followed James through all the censuses on Ancestry.com until 1851 and then Margaret from 1871-1901. I cannot find them at all on the 1861 census.

**Peterd500** · 26-Sep-07, 09:29

My correspondent, Paul, a descendant, is convinced that the chap born 1823 cannot be the right one, despite James's age at death indicating birth about then. I haven't been studying that CORMACK line (my CORMACK line is an unrelated one) and am not in a position to offer an opinion.

Ages given in death register entries are notoriously unreliable being dependent on the quality of information offered by the informant at the death.

The family you give for James & Margaret is the correct one, it matches an item that Paul has, a 1957 list of descendants outlined by someone who knew grandchildren living in 1957 right down to nicknames and locations.

Here is the family in 1861

07 Apr 1861 Census of Scotland @ Bank Row, Wick, Caithness
Margaret CORMACK Wife Marr 30 Shipowner's Wife b. Wick
Elizabeth CORMACK Dau Unm 09 Scholar b. Wick
Walter CORMACK Son 06 Scholar b. Wick
James CORMACK Son 04 b. Wick
John CORMACK Son 03 b. Wick
Margaret CORMACK Dau 6 [4?] months b. Wick
Jean BRUCE Serv Unm 11 Dom Servant b. Wick

Peter

**Mamie_2** · 26-Sep-07, 19:20

I am still convinced but would accept proof otherwise. I know ages can be wrong on any document especially where the informant is not a relative as is the case for James Cormack.

I haven't seen any real proof from Paul.

I am not actually related to them.

They are on my database because I was researching GREEN's as I do have some in my family. I just never get rid of anyone who has a Canisbay connection which Margaret Green's parents do. I have found so many later connections as a result of keeping information I come across.

Mamie

**pcormack** · 26-Sep-07, 23:46

It is so refreshing to read this site and communicate with so many concerned individuals.

My approach is to start with hard facts and work backwards chronologically:

My GF is William Bain CORMACK Born 1902, Caledonian Hotel, Wick:
Here is his birth Certificate that someone in my family let me scan years ago.
http://www.campanis.com/roots/mother/william_bain_cormack_birth_cert.htm

From this birth certificate we see that My GGF is James CORMACK married to Margaret BAIN.

Next, I have this document, from a family member, that describes his siblings:
http://www.campanis.com/roots/mother/1957_notes_re_family_cut.jpg
They are: Elizabeth, Walter, John, James and George

From here I cannot find my GGGF.

I have posted several documents here: http://www.campanis.com/roots/mother/james_cormack_docs/.

More documents can be posted if emailed to me.

I would greatly appreciate any help with this.

Thanks

**pcormack** · 27-Sep-07, 17:25

Document 20 in this list http://www.campanis.com/roots/mother/james_cormack_docs/
Gives a good skeleton of a family tree.
Number 4 in this list is my GGF and the goal is to find my GGGF.
So, how hard could it be to find the names of the parents of these five children?
Clues are often found in the names of their children as they maybe named after grandparents.
Two of the five have son’s named James and there are no other duplicates, so not much luck there.

Famous People
Document 21 in this list http://www.campanis.com/roots/mother/james_cormack_docs/
Shows James Cormack kissing his Cadillac goodbye and sending it over the edge.
In the caption it mentions that he was the British Trade Commissioner to Canada and a collector of Chinese ceramics.
As well he held other offices.

I notice in Document 20 (1957 notes) that Walter Cormack had a son James who is described as:
“formerly Canadian gov’t trade commissioner…Collector)

Obscure Names
Tried Doctor Godfrey Cormack, Marjory Cormack, Lancelot Cormack and came up with nothing on Google.
I don’t have access to other UK based genealogical sites.

**Tricia** · 27-Sep-07, 20:34

Hi Paul
We were in contact several years back -
I have Cormacks - Watten Wick - direct line
Other areas indirect lines.
My list is growing slowly but not as yet a direct link to yours.
Do you have parents for John b c 1797 who appears in Harbour Terrace 1841.
You will note next door to him is Solomon Cormack b 1791 - he is my 3xg uncle.

I wonder if he and John were related? I think I searched for a death for John between 1861-1871 - no luck yet.

He was a Son of Magnus Cormack and Mary Sutherland. Solomon (Single)was next to your Cormack in 1841 51 and 61. In 1871 he was a lodger with his Niece Janet Cormack (m to John McDonald) in Burn Street wher he died in 1874.

1871
Name: Janet McDonald (ms Cormack)
Age: 49
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1822
Relationship: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Wick, Caithnessshire
Registration Number: 43/2
Registration district: Wick Burgh
Civil Parish: Wick
Town: Pulteneytown
County: Caithness
Address: Burn Street
Occupation: Laundress
ED: 5
Page: 29
Household schedule number: 143
Line: 14
Roll: CSSCT1871_8
Household Members: Name Age
Solomon Cormack 79
John McBeath 1 7 Mo Janet's g/son
Alexander McDonald 11
Frances McDonald 15
Janet McDonald 49
John McDonald 13

Is this your John b 1827. in Caledonian Terrace Edin
Name: John Cormack
Age: 73
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1828
Relationship: Head Uncle (Head)
Gender: Male
Where born: Wick, Caithnesshire
Registration Number: 685/1
Registration district: St George
Civil Parish: Edinburgh St David
County: Midlothian
Address: 7 Caledonian Cres
Occupation: Shoemaker
ED: 105
Page: 3 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 19
Line: 3
Roll: CSSCT1901_367
Household Members: Name Age
John Cormack 73
Bella Sutherland 22 (his Niece b in Keiss)

Tricia.
born a MORE in Wick

**pcormack** · 28-Sep-07, 15:18

Nice to hear from you again Tricia.
Please feel free to email me and I will send you source and info on what we have so far.
Some can be found here:
http://www.campanis.com/family/pedig...5&talloffset=1

We (some talented family) are a bit stuck at finding my GGGF's parents. That would be the parents of James Cormack likely born either 1823 or 1826. I think he was married 31 DEC 1851 and Died 28 OCT 1869. Previously I was a bit mixed up and disseminated a date of 1817 that I now back off from.

I lean towards the 1823 born James Cormack with parents John and Elizabeth.

Case for James Cormack Born 20 OCT 1823 to John and Elizabeth being my GGGF:
1) Census at Harbor Terrace 1841 James 15, implies dob 1826
2) Census at Harbor Terrace 1851 James 27, implies dob 1824
3) 01 Jan 1851 at the age of 27 (age 28 later on Oct 20) he was Master of the "Brave" implies dob of 1823 (compelling fact)
4) 1869 death (age 46) certificate implied dob of 1823 (compelling fact)

His death was not so sudden he could not seek care In the Edinburgh Asylum.
It is here before his death that he would have testified to his age. The informant could also have had his exact birth date at hand.

Age 27 as the master of the brave is a good data point because it was given for purposes of Lloyds insurance (so I think).
Date Joined: 01 Jan 1851 Place Joined: Wick
Prospective birth date: 20 OCT 1823
Subtraction: 1851 – 27 = 1824, but at 01 Jan 1851 he would not have had his (28th) birthday, so the 20 Oct 1823 is plausible.
The better calculation is 1851 -28 = 1823

So, there we are…

Link to Docs
http://www.campanis.com/roots/mother/james_cormack_docs/

Eliminating James 1826, I see 4 probable marriages listed in Doc28.
These are numbers 7, 9 and 14 in the blue.
Number 7 is Doc29 but has no parents name.
In the Pink is number 5 downloaded as Doc30.
But I cannot read most of it!
I find this record quite illegible.

Any other ideas?

**Kingetter** · 28-Sep-07, 16:11

Originally Posted by Peterd500

James

What is your interest in James CORMACK & Margaret GREEN?

Peter Sinclair Dillon
Christchurch, New Zealand

Hi Peter,

Been away on holiday so just starting to catch up.

I've no connection, but thought to help someone else because I'm in Caithness and knew the value of this group.

James.

**Mamie_2** · 30-Sep-07, 18:06

Pretty sure we are all agreed, Paul, Peter and me, that yes he is the son of John Cormack c 1795 and Elizabeth Thomson.

We are still waiting for few pieces of things but...

So James if they are really looking for more information on the families Paul has it all so far as his is the most direct connection. I am not actually related that I know of.

I have found a little more information but not actual source documents.. just indexes to later censuses and the John O Groats Journal and Inverness Advertiser.

Paul is trying to get photographs of the Guildhall records for James.

Mamie

**pcormack** · 01-Oct-07, 01:09

My email to Guildhall was answered within two hours on a Saturday no less.
James Cormack the Master Mariner was born in Wick in 1823.
The date of 1823 was confirmed in a followup email.
The manuscript reads 1823.

Here is their reply.
http://www.history.ac.uk/gh/capintro.htm
CORMAK, James b. Wick 1823 S37657 vol.3 1856-1857, 1859-1868
Name : James Cormack
Place and date of birth : Wick, 1823
Certificate number : S 37657 [S denotes certificate of service]
Place certificate awarded : Not recorded.
Date of certificate : Not recorded.
Special qualifications : None given.
Details of his voyages are also recorded in the Captains Registers as follows (with name and number of ship, date(s) of voyage, destination):
Lillias , 1856, Ct.; Adelaide , 17,655, 1857, Ct.; Aspern , 5061, 1860-1, Ct., B.; Hunter , 42,169, 1862-4, B. Ct.; Express , 29, 228, 1865-8, B., Ct. B. is Baltic, Norway, White Sea, Gulf of Finland and Cattegat; Ct. is coasting trade,
including Holland, Belgium, France, from River Elbe to Brest.

So to summarize the records:
Birth:
http://campanis.com/roots/mother/james_cormack_docs//Cormack_James_birth_1823.jpg

Marriage:
Old Parish Registers – Pre 1855.
James Cormack, Seaman, Pulteneytown and Margaret Green, daughter of Walter Green, Pulteneytown were matrimonially contracted on this 25th day of December and married by the Reverend Andrew Key on the 31st day of December AD 1851 in the presence of John Green and Donald Bain, parishioners.

Birth Date recorded in Mariner’s Records, Lloyd's Captains Registers
Place and date of birth : Wick, 1823

Marriage of Son, My GGF:
8th July 1895 at The Bath, Old Bath Street, Glasgow, after banns according to the forms of the United Presbyterian Church: James Cormack, Hotel Proprietor (bachelor) – 37 of Caledonian Hotel, Bridge Street, Wick, son of James Cormack – Master Mariner (deceased) and Margaret Green, and Maggie Bain (spinster) – 24 of Port Dunbar, Wick, daughter of William Bain – Master Fish-curer and Elizabeth Rae. James Cruickshank – minister of St Rollox U.P. church, Glasgow. Witnesses: Hector Sutherland and Lizzie Bain. Registered 8th July at Glasgow

Death:
http://campanis.com/roots/mother/james_cormack_docs//Cormack_James_1869_death.tif
James Cormack, Ship Owner & Captain (married) – died 28th October 1869 (10.45am) at Royal Edinburgh Asylum, Edinburgh aged 46 years. Cause of Death: General paralysis, general failure of constitution consequent on an intensely internal … condition. As certified by … Wright. Informant: Alex Cramond, attendant

Is anyone unconvinced that this is the James born 1823, Master Mariner from Wick and my GGGF?

Write up is here: http://campanis.com/internet_reposit...es_Cormack.rtf

**pcormack** · 04-Oct-07, 12:55

Marriage of Daughter Elizabeth (my GGF-sister)
http://campanis.com/internet_repository/McKenzie_George_and_Elizabeth_Cormack_marriage_187 8.tif
(email me for un/pw)

The occupation of the father is recorded as “Ship Master” and deceased as of 1878
The mother’s name is Margaret Green

**Peterd500** · 05-Oct-07, 07:21

aha! the penny has finally dropped for me regarding that marriage.

The register entry for marriage of Elizabeth CORMACK to George MCKENZIE says her parents were John MCKENZIE & Isabella PHIMISTER.

Elsewhere in my database I have Isabella PHIMISTER who was married to John MCKENZIE (from other bulletin boards, possibly at Rootschat?) as the daughter of George PHIMISTER & Alexanderina WARES, and the latter George's parents were George PHIMISTER & Christian BREMNER.

It appears that George PHIMISTER & Christian BREMNER may have had a son John PHIMISTER who married Rose Ann FARQUHAR, the latter couple probably being the parents of William PHIMISTER who married Janet Wemyss CORMACK 07 Oct 1843 Wick parish.

Janet Wemyss CORMACK was born 03 Jan 1824 Hempriggs, Wick (died 15 Jul 1908) to John CORMACK and Janet REOCH / REIACH / REACH / etc who were married 28 Oct 1815 Wick parish.

John CORMACK was the brother of my GGG-grandmother Barbara CORMACK (bap 10 Dec Watten parish to Alexander CORMACK & Isobel CORMACK) who married John SINCLAIR at Wick parish on 14 Dec 1805.

John SINCLAIR was son of James SINCLAIR the chamberlain ,son of Donald SINCLAIR the sailor, son of David SINCLAIR of Broynach.

Alexander CORMACK 1756-1823 & Isobel CALDER 1754-1842 had a number of issue at Watten parish where Alexander was a miller, firstly in the Achingale/Milton area then Strath & Flex, Alexander being from Halkirk parish when they married in 1781. All the family moved from Watten. Alexander & Isobel finished up in Latheron parish at Reisgill.

I've seen various data re other CORMACK at Watten and have been unable to connect them to mine, except that John SINCLAIR & Barbara CORMACK's eldest child (out of 13) Elizabeth CORMACK married Donald CORMACK, apparently the son of John CORMACK (= Charlotte MORROSN), son of Donald CORMACK (= Janet-Christian BAIN) son of Magnus CORMACK (= Jean TAYLOR[E])

Achingale is the old name for the Watten area, Watten village being a more recent development. Achingale as a name can still be seen on maps not far from Watten village.

Peter