Thoughts to London Bombs

[neep_docker]

Our thoughts should also be with the families of the innocent civillians killed and injured in the American air strike on a village in Afghanistan last week, such violence is also outrageous irrespective of the perpetrator.

But this is precisely my point - I don't know a person killed on the London Underground yesterday, any more than I know an Iraqi police recruit killed in Iraq last week - the tradegy is the same, but I saw no outpouring of grief and sentimentality for the latter.

They are, in John Pilger's words, the "unpeople" - we don't need to care about them because they're not 'one of us'.

A life, is a life, is a life.

But what starts to become more scary, as history unfolds, is how much the hand of the allies in certain conflicts are found in the enemy. Exploring a lot of what actually happened in South America and Asia throughout the 50s, 60s and 70s, we find that the USA were backing insurgents and counter-insurgents (i.e. 'terrorists') while publicly decrying such behaviour, because it suited their own interests. The same thing was going on in the UK with the IRA (and may still be). It happened in Kosovo - we have dirty hands as a nation in all of this - our powers that be tut-tutted publicly while arming the terrorists at the same time.

Don't be surprised, 30 years from now, to read something rather disturbing about underhand involvement in events like this week.

[weeboyagee]

...If you mess about with the sort of people who do this, then you can only expect this to happen....Thanks Tony - we'd just about managed to stop the IRA blowing up parts of the country, when you and your cousin Dubbya decided it would be a good idea to poke the snake in the middle east

Terrorist attacks did not start ONLY after the Iraq campaign! Innocent people have been victims of terrorist activity for years neep_docker - not just as a result of "poking a snake" in the middle east! I agree with htwood, the blood is on the hands of the terrorist group - no-one elses! Once you have resolved to this you can be as diverse as you like with what ever other thoughts you have on the matter but I think in your case neep_docker at this point in time, keep them to yourself! As usual , like most of your other contributions in these forums, you have managed to "poke the snake" yourself and raise the wrath of the majority of caithness.org visitors!

Who could not have been moved by the harrowing scenes last night on the TV or have that same feeling of uselessness when they heard what happened in London. I found out by email and 1 o' clock afternoon news. EVERYONE was silenced,...why?....loss of human life. I know that no-one in my company thought that the government were to blame - no-one! What they did think was profound sorrow for those killed, injured or had their lives turned upside down having done nothing to deserve it! Only a sad minority will have thought otherwise!

....see you've just posted again before I completed this one so I have edited this one after you,....a life is precisely that - A LIFE!!!! Who should be able to snuff out life before it's time without having to be held accountable for it?

[fred]

Terrorist attacks did not start ONLY after the Iraq campaign! Innocent people have been victims of terrorist activity for years neep_docker - not just as a result of "poking a snake" in the middle east!

I agree with you entirely, you've hit the nail right on the head, there's nothing new here, it's been going on for years.

"The Arab and Kurd now know what real bombing means in casualties and
damage. Within forty-five minutes a full-size village can be practically
wiped out and a third of its inhabitants killed or injured."

Wing Commander Sir Arthur Harris, British Forces Iraq, 1924

[neep_docker]

I agree with you entirely, you've hit the nail right on the head, there's nothing new here, it's been going on for years.

So why such an intensity of emotion then, if Thursday in London was just basically 'business as usual' ?

5 people were killed in a head-on car collision in the Lake District this week - where's all the focus and over-reaction over that tragedy ? Nothing more than a passing column inch in the national press - but it's still a set of innocent lives snuffed out just like that right under our noses. And, like most road 'accidents' it would appear to be no accident - one of those involved decided they would be beyond the law.

We need to all get a sense of proportion rather than jump on the hysteria bandwagon just because the press or politicians or the do-gooders brow beat us into doing so. And everytime we are shocked by something like this, we should be understanding why - it's ignorance that leads to all of this sort of activity.

[Margaret M.]

Jan, that was a lovely post. There is something very haunting about Scotland -- many whom have visited think it is like no other place and they are drawn back to it without really knowing why.

[scotsboy]

It seems Neepdocker that you see no difference between an “accident” and a premeditated act. A person or group of people planned the action in London, they planned it to kill people, a car accident however tragic is a totally different scenario – the outcome of both events do warrant sympathy, but cannot be considered in the same magnitude.
To plan an indiscriminate act such as placing bombs on public transport is beyond my understanding.

[neep_docker]

To plan an indiscriminate act such as placing bombs on public transport is beyond my understanding.

To overtake, over a solid white line, on a bend, in front of on-coming traffic at speeds of over 80mph is also way beyond my understanding, and it's premeditated ...... you don't just happen to find yourself doing that unvoluntarily - we've just been conditioned as a society to accept this more than accepting someone with a grudge deliberately causing havoc.

The other problem is of course that society will always have a handful of nutters - like Thomas Hamilton at the Dunblane school, or that idiot who caused the accident on the Aberdeen / Inverness road that wiped out 3 members of a family. But these people are always single isolated incidents, whereas people who undertake terrorist attacks have a cause. And to have a cause, you must first be agrieved. And this country has agrieved a heck of a lot of people in the world by being the yes man to the world's greatest nutter, Dubbya Bush.

I end up in the US quite regularly with my work, and I think Dubbya would spend his time better focusing on issues at home. The poverty, crime, corruption and violence in his own country is quite dispicable. If that's the way of life the rest of the world is supposed to aspire to, then I think I'd rather live under the rule of Martians.

[scotsboy]

To overtake, over a solid white line, on a bend, in front of on-coming traffic at speeds of over 80mph is also way beyond my understanding, and it's premeditated ...... you don't just happen to find yourself doing that unvoluntarily - we've just been conditioned as a society to accept this more than accepting someone with a grudge deliberately causing havoc.

Whilst I agree that such a course of action is crazy, the intention would not be to deliberately kill those in the oncoming car......although that may be the result. The premeditated act is to get to the destination quicker, not to kill those in the oncoming car.

then I think I'd rather live under the rule of Martians.

Do they tolerate indesciminate killing of humans then?

Neep-docker you appear to be tyhe only one "anywhere" that I have heard not condeming these acts..........even Hamas did so...........are you martian?

[wavy davy]

I diidn't read that neepdocker didn't condemn the bombings. What he is saying is that he feels that Blair and Bush, by their actions in Iraq and elsewhere, may well have provoked the bombings. That's a legitimate point of view - one shared by many people -nearly every national daily yesterday carried an article by a journalist saying exactly the same thing. What happened to freedom of expression on this board.

[fred]

Neep-docker you appear to be tyhe only one "anywhere" that I have heard not condeming these acts..........even Hamas did so...........are you martian?

Yes, most of the Muslim world condemns the evil terrorists that are behind atrocities such as this.

While in the Christian world we re-elect them.

[scorrie]

[quote="wavy davy" What happened to freedom of expression on this board.[/quote]

Hi Wavy Davy, were you ever an act on Novelty Island? Sure there was an act by that name once upon a time. Certainly, everyone is free to express themselves. Neep Docker or Neep Docker2 or Neep Docker3, as I consider him to be, is free to say anything he wishes to.

We, as other members of the board are equally free to state that we think his opinions/views are utter crap!! THAT is freedom of expression my friend. Many anarchists think that freedom of expression means that THEY talk and WE listen without comment.

The bottom line is that terrorism should never be accepted, no matter how poor or complicit you think your leaders are, it is bad news to even think about conceding to the terrorist. Otherwise how could society flourish? Every time there was a problem, someone would threaten to blow everyone else to bits. What do you do? Conceed to every aggressor? Bow to every threat? Lie down to every aerosol with a chip on their shoulder?

Instead, we say to terrorists - F U. Away and die like the scum you are and let humans get on with living.

[wavy davy]

Scorrie,

You say that

" We, as other members of the board are equally free to state that we think his opinions/views are utter crap!! THAT is freedom of expression my friend. Many anarchists think that freedom of expression means that THEY talk and WE listen without comment."

Other responses to neep's posts include the following language;

[i]How can you be so crass at a time like this neep_docker? IMHO htwood and Lizz are spot-on. Similarly for the other posts above. Such violence is outrageous, irrespective of the perpetrator. You are totally out of order.

I see this is neep_doctor first post. Perhaps he has no feelings for the victims and does not know how to respond to victims of tragedy.

Well put as always DrSzin, neep-docker get your head out of the neep field, it seems to me that it was more than the shaws that were docked when you were done

Neep-docker you appear to be tyhe only one "anywhere" that I have heard not condeming these acts..........even Hamas did so...........are you martian?

Hardly the language of an adult debate methinks.

As I said before, neep was making a legitimate point about our "leaders" playing with our safety. I don't see how that translates into being an anarchist, not deploring terrorism, not feeling sympathy for victims etc.

[golach]

Got this from a pal in England...what can I say!!!!


You come to place your bags of hate
On bus and train, you made us late
Yet we’ll be back again tomorrow
We’ll carry on despite our sorrow

Your bags of hate caused some to die
Yet we stride out strong with heads held high
You’ll never win, we will not bow
You can’t defeat us, you don’t know how

This London which we love with pride
Is a town where scum like you can’t hide
Don’t worry we will hunt you down
Then Lock you up in name of Crown

We’re London and we’re many races
Just look you’ll see our stoic faces
We all condemn your heinous act
You will not win and that’s a fact

We’ll mourn our dead and shed a tear
But we will not bow to acts of fear
You’re out there somewhere all alone
There’s nowhere now you can call home

Olympics ours we’ve won the race
Your timing then a real disgrace
Our strength you’ll find remains unbowed
We’re London and we’re very proud.

[scotsboy]

ok Wavy Davy, lets discuss the following statements made by Neep-Docker:

The blood is on Blair's hands. If you mess about with the sort of people who do this, then you can only expect this to happen.

Thanks Tony - we'd just about managed to stop the IRA blowing up parts of the country, when you and your cousin Dubbya decided it would be a good idea to poke the snake in the middle east.

In the first paragraph he blames Blair for the London bombings, in the second he goes on to take part of the "credit" for stopping the IRA bombing campaign. Now if I am not mistaken the NI peace process includes the government, and therefore Blair.....so should he not get ALL the credit for that? Or maybe WE are all guilty for the bombings in London? Maybe you could enlighten me?

[mareng]

Without going into arguments on the event, I am saddened that there are photographs of the scene of the explosion on the bus, taken 30 seconds after the event. Instead of providing assistance to the injured, it appears that peoples' first instinct now - is to take photographs/videos. The same thing was apparent after the Tsunami last year.

To all of these people............SHAME!

[neep_docker]

Thank goodness one or two people have now managed to get around to saying something rational here, instead of being brain washed into the standard sentimental response to these types of situations.

The English have this incessant habit of rubbing other peoples up the wrong way, then invariably sending in the Scottish to fight their battles - this has gone on for hundreds of years.

The IRA bombed England (and not Scotland and Wales) because some people had a cause to be agrieved (rightly or wrongly) with the English. Let's just hope that the current wave of cheesed off foreigners know the geographic and cultural difference between these countries as well.

And on the subject of sentimentality, I notice that we are all now being expected to have a co-ordinate two-minute silence this Thursday. If we had a two-minute silence for every tragedy in the world, then we'd allbe Trapest Monks. Why don't we all have a two-minute rant instead.

[fred]

In the first paragraph he blames Blair for the London bombings, in the second he goes on to take part of the "credit" for stopping the IRA bombing campaign. Now if I am not mistaken the NI peace process includes the government, and therefore Blair.....so should he not get ALL the credit for that? Or maybe WE are all guilty for the bombings in London? Maybe you could enlighten me?

A lot of funding for the IRA came from America and there are still known IRA bombers wanted by the British government living in the United States which America refuses to extradite. The IRA bombing campaign didn't just happen, there were historical reasons
why there were people in Ireland who felt justified in committing such atrocities not least of which was genocide. The famine which starved to death a quarter of the population of Ireland was not caused by potato blight, Ireland still had plenty of grain, meat and dairy products, more than enough to feed the population. They were exported to protect the prices in England, exported in ships guarded by British troops from the starving Irish.

I don't think there is any doubt now that our invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with weapons of mass destruction, that was just the excuse not the reason. The reason is obvious, we wanted to control the second largest undeveloped oil reserves in the world
because our way of life, the civilisation we have built, depends on oil and just as we starved to death 2million Irish to protect the price of grain we invaded Iraq to protect the price of oil.

The people of Britain and America saw the loss of life in the Middle East every morning on their TVs and they just did not care. The people of Briatain and America have watched the American backed oppression of the Palestinian people by Israel every day for decades and they just did not care. The people of Britain and America knew all this before the last elections when they had the chance to make their voice heard but they just did not care.

[scotsboy]

So without going into debate about the conflicts and history that led to the IRAs campaign of terror, you agree that the underlying causes are still there…….but their campaign in the UK has stopped (it could start again), why? Are you saying that the Government had nothing to do with this?
Also in terms of the Middle East, the case of Palestine is always trotted out, and for some reason everyone in the UK seems to think that the USA is to blame for their funding of the Zionist state of Israel……..speak to anyone in the Middle East and it is always Britain that is blamed for the state of Israel. Surely that cannot be laid at the door of Blair as well.

[scorrie]

Scorrie,


Hardly the language of an adult debate methinks.

As I said before, neep was making a legitimate point about our "leaders" playing with our safety. I don't see how that translates into being an anarchist, not deploring terrorism, not feeling sympathy for victims etc.

Not quite sure why you are trotting all these quotes out again. My point is, that your Neepy friend in whichever incarnation he is currently under, IS getting his freedom to speak and others are getting their freedom to reply.

There always seems to be a section of any board that think they are more intellectual, mature, adult or whatever than other posters. Perhaps we should go the whole hog and remove the right to vote from these supposedly inferior intellects. After all, such people are clearly not equipped to make an informed decision on who should govern our country.

Yer man is getting his say, others have disagreed. If you are not happy with that then perhaps you should be more adult about it.

[wavy davy]

Scotsboy

You're absolutely right about Britain bearing the initial responsibility for the Palestine situation. However, I disagree that this is the way that the situaion is currently perceived by populist opinion in the Middle East. The USA is seen as the force that has allowed Israel to flourish - Britain is reviled for it's more recent political and military support of the USA. However, that's splitting hairs.

The more important point is that made by Fred. Yes, we are all to blame for the London bombings.

We elected ( and reelected ) a Government which is complicit in USA support for Israel and participated in an armed invasion of a country which threatened neither us nor the USA, all for the continuation of a supply of cheap energy for the West.

If you doubt that analysis of the reason for invading Iraq, consider that North Korea poses a much greater "clear and present danger" to world peace than Iraq ever did but a) they don't have oil b) the Americans know that they would get their arse kicked if they tried that one on.

Given our self serving actions in a region which is predominantly Muslim, with all that entails in terms of the Muslim perception of themselves as a britherhood, is it surprising that we've managed to mightily piss off a large number of people.

I'm as appalled as anyone by their methods of warfare but given their lack of conventional military might this is the only way that they can strike back.

The prospect of the coming years of terrorist attacks is far from pleasant, but we can hardly say "it wisnae us mister - honest". We're ultimately and rightly collectively responsible for the actions of our leaders and we're now facing the consequences.