Are you on the fence over Scottish independence?

**Goodfellers** · 24-Oct-22, 10:25

Originally Posted by Corky Smeek

Glad you brought that up. So here is a quote from Ruth Davidson, Baroness:-

“If the Greens and the SNP, and the SSP or any of the other parties who have declared an interest in independence, get over the line and can make a coalition, make a majority, get the votes in the Parliament, then they’ll vote through a referendum.

That’s what democracy is all about.”

Also it seems to have escaped your notice that by all current parliamentary conventions in the UK there is a mandate for IndyRef2.

When was Ruth Davidson given the power to speak on behalf of the UK government? Her personal views are exactly that.

No matter how many seats the SNP/Greens get, all the time Unionist parties get more actual votes, voters understand a referendum would be a waste of time and money. You know it too, but because your dream is independence, you allow emotions to get the better of your intelligence.

**Goodfellers** · 24-Oct-22, 10:56

If we're chucking in random quotes, how about in Oct 2015 when the SNP said it wanted polls to show 60% support before they called for a referendum? https://www.scotsman.com/regions/snp...rendum-1492381

Or when your favourite pollster (Sir J C) said "“I think one of the things that’s forgotten about the referendum last year is that there had never previously been a period in which the opinion polls had consistently pointed to a majority in favour of yes,” he told the programme.“There really isn’t much point in the SNP holding a referendum until it’s clear that there is a majority - a sustained majority - in favour of doing so, because otherwise the serious risk is loss."

Or how about the most famous of them all, Alex Salmond saying " “once in a generation opportunity"

**Corky Smeek** · 24-Oct-22, 11:56

Originally Posted by Goodfellers

If we're chucking in random quotes, how about in Oct 2015 when the SNP said it wanted polls to show 60% support before they called for a referendum? https://www.scotsman.com/regions/snp...rendum-1492381

Or when your favourite pollster (Sir J C) said "“I think one of the things that’s forgotten about the referendum last year is that there had never previously been a period in which the opinion polls had consistently pointed to a majority in favour of yes,” he told the programme.“There really isn’t much point in the SNP holding a referendum until it’s clear that there is a majority - a sustained majority - in favour of doing so, because otherwise the serious risk is loss."

Or how about the most famous of them all, Alex Salmond saying " “once in a generation opportunity"

I thought you might try to deflect away from these uncomfortable quotes. There are a bit embarrassing for those concerned, aren't they? I take it you want to disassociate yourself from all of them.

Also, and to repeat the point made earlier, if you are so sure that "No" is ahead and that "Yes" has no chance of winning why are you so scared to test that hypothesis in a referendum? I think we all know the answer to that!

**Goodfellers** · 24-Oct-22, 13:37

Originally Posted by Corky Smeek

I thought you might try to deflect away from these uncomfortable quotes. There are a bit embarrassing for those concerned, aren't they? I take it you want to disassociate yourself from all of them.

Also, and to repeat the point made earlier, if you are so sure that "No" is ahead and that "Yes" has no chance of winning why are you so scared to test that hypothesis in a referendum? I think we all know the answer to that!

Dealing with you is like banging your head against a brick wall!

Deflection is YOUR speciality. I responded and then gave other examples of what politicians say, and guess what, you didn't respond other than to deflect (yet again).

If you are the best example of a 'yes' supporter on this board then we (unionists) really have nothing to fear. You have no answers to anything.

Here's another little thought. You post quite frequently about the disaster that was Brexit, yet you use the very same arguments the 'leave' side used, yet you see no problem with that. Absolutely astounding!

Why not forget indy2 and concentrate on Brexit2? That would solve the biggest problem (excuse?) the SNP had and the only argument for indy2.

**Fulmar** · 24-Oct-22, 15:22

What is Brexit 2?

**Goodfellers** · 24-Oct-22, 15:42

Originally Posted by Fulmar

What is Brexit 2?

There are groups https://therejoineuparty.com/news/ who would like the Brexit referendum to be held again. Brexit2 is my own title for it, as in indy2 Now we have sound information on what Brexit 'actually' is, seems like a good idea.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/question...ould-you-vote/

There's also this Tory donor saying today, we need to completely re-look at the Brexit negotiation https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63371743

I'm fairly sure with the knowledge we have now the Brexit vote (re-run) would have an entirely different outcome. Which is why I quite liked John Major's suggestion of an informative indy2 poll, then 5 years of negotiations, then another vote that was legally binding. At least then you know what you're getting by voting 'yes'.

Another interesting link, assuming a Labour GE victory https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/eve...u-more-likely/

**mi16** · 24-Oct-22, 16:18

Originally Posted by Goodfellers

There are groups https://therejoineuparty.com/news/ who would like the Brexit referendum to be held again. Brexit2 is my own title for it, as in indy2 Now we have sound information on what Brexit 'actually' is, seems like a good idea.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/question...ould-you-vote/

There's also this Tory donor saying today, we need to completely re-look at the Brexit negotiation https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63371743

I'm fairly sure with the knowledge we have now the Brexit vote (re-run) would have an entirely different outcome. Which is why I quite liked John Major's suggestion of an informative indy2 poll, then 5 years of negotiations, then another vote that was legally binding. At least then you know what you're getting by voting 'yes'.

Another interesting link, assuming a Labour GE victory https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/eve...u-more-likely/

I quite like that idea, same should have been done re 2014, if they had done I think they would have got it over the line.

**Corky Smeek** · 24-Oct-22, 17:45

So where do you draw the line?

Does every general election need a confirmative vote? What about local elections? By this logic we should all be entitled to have a trial run for every election there ever is. And to think that Goodfellers has the cheek to say that referenda cost money that would be better spent elsewhere. Now he thinks it is a good idea to have a referendum; 5 years of negotiations and then another referendum. How much would that all cost? What utter nonsense and what utter hypocrisy. No doubt the confirmative referendum would also have to have a 60% majority or some other restrictive caveat.

And he thinks he is a democrat. One rule for for his side and restrictive rules for his political opponents. If you think by altering the fundamental terms of the UK's democracy you can save this disintegrating Union, then you have another think coming? And it betrays the real characteristics of the Unionist side who are prepared to sacrifice democracy and employ every dirty trick in the book to win. Win at all costs - wasn't that the instruction given by David Cameron to the leaders of the "No" side when "Project Fear" was established.

**Fulmar** · 24-Oct-22, 17:52

I both heard and read Guy Hands on the BBC today. Pretty damning to say the least and that from a Tory supporter.

**Corky Smeek** · 24-Oct-22, 18:22

And to think if we had just voted "Yes" in 2014 we could have avoided all of this.

As James O'Brien said earlier today on his LBC show - the UK is the first country in history to have imposed sanctions upon itself.

**mi16** · 24-Oct-22, 18:23

Originally Posted by Corky Smeek

So where do you draw the line?

Does every general election need a confirmative vote? What about local elections? By this logic we should all be entitled to have a trial run for every election there ever is. And to think that Goodfellers has the cheek to say that referenda cost money that would be better spent elsewhere. Now he thinks it is a good idea to have a referendum; 5 years of negotiations and then another referendum. How much would that all cost? What utter nonsense and what utter hypocrisy. No doubt the confirmative referendum would also have to have a 60% majority or some other restrictive caveat.

And he thinks he is a democrat. One rule for for his side and restrictive rules for his political opponents. If you think by altering the fundamental terms of the UK's democracy you can save this disintegrating Union, then you have another think coming? And it betrays the real characteristics of the Unionist side who are prepared to sacrifice democracy and employ every dirty trick in the book to win. Win at all costs - wasn't that the instruction given by David Cameron to the leaders of the "No" side when "Project Fear" was established.

Yeah you are right Throbs, lets just stick with the 2014 referendum result.

**Goodfellers** · 24-Oct-22, 18:45

Originally Posted by Corky Smeek

So where do you draw the line?

Does every general election need a confirmative vote? What about local elections? By this logic we should all be entitled to have a trial run for every election there ever is. And to think that Goodfellers has the cheek to say that referenda cost money that would be better spent elsewhere. Now he thinks it is a good idea to have a referendum; 5 years of negotiations and then another referendum. How much would that all cost? What utter nonsense and what utter hypocrisy. No doubt the confirmative referendum would also have to have a 60% majority or some other restrictive caveat.

And he thinks he is a democrat. One rule for for his side and restrictive rules for his political opponents. If you think by altering the fundamental terms of the UK's democracy you can save this disintegrating Union, then you have another think coming? And it betrays the real characteristics of the Unionist side who are prepared to sacrifice democracy and employ every dirty trick in the book to win. Win at all costs - wasn't that the instruction given by David Cameron to the leaders of the "No" side when "Project Fear" was established.

Gosh, you are a bit of a drama queen!

There is a big difference between referendums and elections! ............Elections are what the SNP 'win', referendums are what they lose!

**Corky Smeek** · 24-Oct-22, 19:52

Originally Posted by Goodfellers

Gosh, you are a bit of a drama queen!

There is a big difference between referendums and elections! ............Elections are what the SNP 'win', referendums are what they lose!

And there you were demanding that I answer questions whilst all the time you fail to do what you demand of me. Sounds like you want it all your way. Changing democratic rules to ensure you win; demanding I answer your questions; refusing to answer mine. Says it all really.