Are you on the fence over Scottish independence?

[Goodfellers]

I'm sure we can all agree, Nicola Sturgeons speech and latest update yesterday was high on rhetoric, but low on substance.

Robin McAlpine believes strongly in an independent Scotland but is no fan of the current SNP government.

This is his take on yesterday's announcement. If you're undecided about Scotland's financial future after independence (assuming it happens), it's worth reading.

https://robinmcalpine.org/this-paper...as-no-answers/

The latest dismal paper in a series of dismal papers shows that this is a Scottish Government that has no vision for independence and no realistic grasp of what being an independent country means."

[Fulmar]

Here is another on the economic side which makes for serious consideration.

Scottish independence: Why the 'Economics of Independence' paper is a step backwards from the SNP's Growth Commission report (msn.com)

[The Horseman]

Aye…to both the above.
But when one identifies A Problem, one must also propose A Solution……or two or three..etc!

[Corky Smeek]

Has anyone in the wider Yes movement ever tried to assert that becoming independent is likely to be plain sailing with no problems to overcome? Not that I know of.

(Just) One of the things that drives me nuts is hypocrisy. If the SG had not come up with a plan for Indy but still asked people to trust them and vote Yes then the MSM would have had a field day. Now that the SG has provided the first part of their plan the MSM is still having a field day by trying to pick holes in it. In other words "damned if they do; damned if they don't".

But the hypocrisy really goes into overdrive when one considers Brexit. The MSM did not question the absence of any plan for the periods before, during and after we left the EU. That worked out really well because there was no plan to disect and so it was easy for Brexiteers to concentrate on what they saw as the negatives of being in the EU. This gave them ample opportunity to scare many people into voting Leave. Of course, the lies about £350m a week for the NHS lead to a few Leave votes too, I am sure.

So, the Leave side won in 2016, with the almost full backing of the MSM, despite not having the slightest idea of what they were asking people to vote for. Yet in IndyRef1 and now with IndyRef2 the SG has produced detailed plans; held news conferences; provided press releases and done TV/Radio interviews. Yet the MSM don't look beyond the opportunity to pick holes and inflate issues into major crises.

Fear and lies won IndyRef1 for the No side. Fear and lies won Brexit for the Leave side. And now that IndyRef2 is on the horizon fear and lies are being used again. Just for once it would be nice to hear something positive about Scotland in our MSM. Instead we are subjected to a continual barrage of us being "too wee, too poor and too stupid" to run our own affairs. Well, we are none of those things.

Too wee - 9 out of the 10 richest countries in the world have populations comparable with Scotland.

Too poor - we are one of the most energy and resource laden countries on the planet. Few countries are better placed than Scotland. Just look at Ireland (now the richest country in Europe by per capita GDP).

Too stupid - Scotland has one of the highest percentage graduate populations in the world. Many of our Universities are truly world class. And we have a reputation for innovation and invention that is second to none.

So instead of concentrating on problems and letting the MSM tell us they are all insurmountable why don't we concentrate on finding solutions. There is not a country on earth who, having gained independence, didn't face problems. An independent Scotland will undoubtedly face them too but with our heart and soul; our will, our resources and determination we will overcome them and become a very successful independent country.

Remember that an adventure always starts with a single step. Let that step be a Yes vote.

[Goodfellers]

Has anyone in the wider Yes movement ever tried to assert that becoming independent is likely to be plain sailing with no problems to overcome? Not that I know of.

(Just) One of the things that drives me nuts is hypocrisy. If the SG had not come up with a plan for Indy but still asked people to trust them and vote Yes then the MSM would have had a field day. Now that the SG has provided the first part of their plan the MSM is still having a field day by trying to pick holes in it. In other words "damned if they do; damned if they don't".

But the hypocrisy really goes into overdrive when one considers Brexit. The MSM did not question the absence of any plan for the periods before, during and after we left the EU. That worked out really well because there was no plan to disect and so it was easy for Brexiteers to concentrate on what they saw as the negatives of being in the EU. This gave them ample opportunity to scare many people into voting Leave. Of course, the lies about £350m a week for the NHS lead to a few Leave votes too, I am sure.

So, the Leave side won in 2016, with the almost full backing of the MSM, despite not having the slightest idea of what they were asking people to vote for. Yet in IndyRef1 and now with IndyRef2 the SG has produced detailed plans; held news conferences; provided press releases and done TV/Radio interviews. Yet the MSM don't look beyond the opportunity to pick holes and inflate issues into major crises.

Fear and lies won IndyRef1 for the No side. Fear and lies won Brexit for the Leave side. And now that IndyRef2 is on the horizon fear and lies are being used again. Just for once it would be nice to hear something positive about Scotland in our MSM. Instead we are subjected to a continual barrage of us being "too wee, too poor and too stupid" to run our own affairs. Well, we are none of those things.

Too wee - 9 out of the 10 richest countries in the world have populations comparable with Scotland.

Too poor - we are one of the most energy and resource laden countries on the planet. Few countries are better placed than Scotland. Just look at Ireland (now the richest country in Europe by per capita GDP).

Too stupid - Scotland has one of the highest percentage graduate populations in the world. Many of our Universities are truly world class. And we have a reputation for innovation and invention that is second to none.

So instead of concentrating on problems and letting the MSM tell us they are all insurmountable why don't we concentrate on finding solutions. There is not a country on earth who, having gained independence, didn't face problems. An independent Scotland will undoubtedly face them too but with our heart and soul; our will, our resources and determination we will overcome them and become a very successful independent country.

Remember that an adventure always starts with a single step. Let that step be a Yes vote.

Do you actually believe that the general population of Ireland are really that well off? Have you actually been there (and I don't mean Dublin). It is NOT a wealthy country. Try reading this https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...-are-1.4476247

The internet is full, and I mean full of SNP supporters shouting about giving twice as much to Westminster as we ever get back and that with independence the country will be able to raise the state pension to unheard of levels. If you don't see this, then I'm amazed.

It's Nicola Sturgeon and her governments job to prove to us it's in our interest to vote 'yes', but she is failing miserably. It's nothing to do with the press, she's managing it on her own.

I don't think either of the links provided by Fulmar or myself are msm, as I mentioned my source is very pro-independence and yet, he's ripped the SNP's case for indy to shreds.

[Corky Smeek]

Do you actually believe that the general population of Ireland are really that well off? Have you actually been there (and I don't mean Dublin). It is NOT a wealthy country. Try reading this https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...-are-1.4476247

The internet is full, and I mean full of SNP supporters shouting about giving twice as much to Westminster as we ever get back and that with independence the country will be able to raise the state pension to unheard of levels. If you don't see this, then I'm amazed.

It's Nicola Sturgeon and her governments job to prove to us it's in our interest to vote 'yes', but she is failing miserably. It's nothing to do with the press, she's managing it on her own.

I don't think either of the links provided by Fulmar or myself are msm, as I mentioned my source is very pro-independence and yet, he's ripped the SNP's case for indy to shreds.

Not everyone in Ireland is wealthy but neither is everyone in the UK. The fact remains that Irish per capita GDP far exceeds that of the UK. By your logic the UK is also not a wealthy country.

The internet is full, and I mean full, of anti-SNP supporters commenting about how much of a basket case Scotland is. If it is in such a parlous position then that is a pretty poor endorsement of the Union where Westminster still maintains control over roughly 85% of the Scottish economy.

If you don't believe the influence the press has then, I'm amazed. Think Tanks run by the ultra rich dictate to Government what policies to follow and the MSM willingly provide a forum in which these policies may be laid out to the public. See the video on the thread entitled: "What is the alternative to Scottish Independence".

I am fairly sure you are never going to vote Yes. Nothing NS could say would ever convince you, so to say she is "failing miserably" is only measuring her success against your liklihood of agreeing with her. On that basis she is never going to succeed.

Robin McAlpine has long been an adversary of NS. His writings have often been critical of her and this publication is just the latest in a long line. I think you have to read his article with that in mind. Lots of people disagree with NS and the SNP but still wish for independence; indeed I am often one of them. RMcA's vision on how to achieve and sustain an independent Scotland differs from that of the SNP but fundamentally both wish to see Scotland leave the Union. And critically, both believe an independent Scotland is perfectly viable. But, I do agree he is not really MSM.

Fulmar's source was The Scotsman. That is definitely the MSM.

[Fulmar]

I am sorry Corky but every source or person who does not agree with your view is classed by you as MSM or influenced by that and therefore dismissed and diminished by you as not valid. You do not see how utterly biased you are when others do see that. The views expressed in the link I posted are actually reasonable and mild, compared to those in that of the one posted by Goodfellers. It is not unreasonable to highlight the enormous 'down sides' of Independence or that the paper published falls very well short of what is required and say as you do, quite airily, 'oh well, no one pretends that there won't be problems'. People have to form a judgement on all things and not pretend that the 'downsides' are minimal and won't affect people's lives directly very much because they will and that's entirely obvious.

[Goodfellers]

What really frightens me, are the fact there are so many Scots out there who believe the hype. Let's take Corky's reference to Irelands GDP to try and shore up the independence argument. It has long been known the Irelands GDP figure is skewed because many large multinationals use Ireland to site head offices to take advantage of low taxes. The profits that these companies make are included in Ireland GDP but the profits are moved on, never benefiting Irelands population other than a handful of accountants and lawyers.

Ireland Central Bank governor has written a piece on why Irish GDP cannot be relied on https://ideas.repec.org/p/cbi/ecolet/1-el-21.html You need to download the article to read it, however, this article from another non msm source discusses the article https://www.politico.eu/article/irel...ls-misleading/ If it makes just one person stop quoting 'Ireland's GDP' then it was worth my time posting.

I think we can all accept that Brexit wasn't plain sailing, yet there are so many independence supporters who want to put us through worse! They love to moan about how bad Brexit has been but due to some sort of ideological blindness, they are able to brush under the carpet the fact that splitting from our biggest trading partner will be fine. They remind me of Boris and all his bluff over Northern Ireland. Just ignore the reality and tell everyone 'It'll be fine'. No, it won't.

As I said, it's the job of the SNP to convince us of the positives with hard facts, not just vague promises of what is on a wish list. The public have learnt from Brexit and this time we want proper facts before we commit.

Fulmar's link poses an interesting point, the SNP seem to think we won't have to adopt the Euro. Are they sure? If, in 10 years' time we decide to abandon Sterling and use a new Scottish currency, surely that breaks the EU's rules? That is the point at which we will most likely be forced to adopt the Euro and all that entails.

If the SNP abandon plans to join the EU, I think a few more undecideds may be swayed.

I agree with Corky when he says Scotland is blessed with plenty of renewable energy. Problem is, it's privately owned and unless you plan to nationalise it, how do you promise the public lower bills? Maybe the SNP plan to set up a utility company to buy the power and sell direct to Scots............Wait a minute, haven't the tried and failed at that already.

I think we need to have a GE, Labour is likely to win a hefty majority, let's see what they can offer Scotland before we go burning our bridges with the rest of the UK.

[Corky Smeek]

@ Fulmar and Goodfellers

I was going to reply to each of your posts individually but it seems pointless.

If after experiencing all the lies, corruption, sleaze, broken promises, U-turns, incompetence (on an industrial scale), ineptitude, inhumanity and (seemingly) deliberate nastiness of the current Tory government you still feel that is preferable to Scotland running it's own affairs then I genuinely feel sorry for you. In Scotland we have an opportunity to follow a different path; a path where the people who live here get to choose the direction of travel and not one chosen for us.

I understand that embracing change can be challenging, frightening even, but nothing was ever achieved by running away from challenges. Of course Scotland will face problems in the years after independence but so did every other country that won its freedom. How many Norwegians, Irish, Latvians etc etc look back and hanker for the days when they were ruled from afar. Pretty close to zero, I suspect.

Instead of coming on here and listing all the reasons why we shouldn't be independent why not explore the solutions to those problems. Every problem has a solution after all.

And as an afterthought I note that no-one has put forward any arguments in favour of the Union.

[Fulmar]

The Tories will be 'out' next election Corky. They are not there in perpetuity and don't they know it!

[Corky Smeek]

Well, Fulmar I'm afraid the prospect of a Labour government does nothing to lighten my mood. I have an equally long list of non-complimentary adjectives for them.

[Fulmar]

I'm sure you have but to me it seems to reinforce my point as Labour have not held office for a very long time so what are you blaming them for?

[Corky Smeek]

I'm sure you have but to me it seems to reinforce my point as Labour have not held office for a very long time so what are you blaming them for?

Oh, where do I start?

Just because they haven't been in office doesn't mean they don't have a job to do. They are currently HM's Oppostion and they have been completely ineffective in that role. Instead of holding the government to account they have either abstained on votes or u-turned on important matters just so they don't alienate voters. On the one hand they have been trying to woo disaffected Tory voters in the south of England whilst simultaneously trying to win back the "red wall" seats in the north of England. As a result they have been too frightened to be effective.

They joined with the Tories (and Lib Dems) in the Better Together campaign to fight against independence. During the IndyRef1 campaign I know for a fact that my then local Labour Party branch were sending people out around the houses to scare older folks by telling them that if scotland voted for Indy then their state pensions would stop immediately and that HMG would be claiming back any money paid for the period beyond the date of the vote. That is not heresay - I know the people who did that. I will never forgive the Labour Party for not supporting Indy; for siding with the Tories and for their tactics during IndyRef1. Despite the electoral losses they have suffered in Scotland they still do not back Indy.

They were the prime architects of "The Vow".

The Labour Party is supposed to represent ordinary working people. Despite this they have been going to great lengths to distance themselves from the current actions of some trades unions. Indeed they have even suspended members who have given public support to striking TUs.

In short they are just as untrustworthy as the Tories and only pay lip service to Scotland in an attempt to win votes. In reality they couldn't care less about Scotland as their treatment of the party's branch office up here shows. They took Scotland for granted for decades; gave nothing in return and they got what they deserved at the ballot box.

At least with the Tories you know they are going to be ba**ards. You expect it. It comes as a surprise to learn that Labour are ba**tards too.

PS:- I acknowledge my bias fully. Add to that a huge chip on my shoulder. But the fact is I am scunnered to my back teeth with the way Scotland gets treated and I will never give up fighting for Indy.

[Fulmar]

And of course, the SNP are so entirely truthful and trustworthy and never tell any porkies? Really?!
I have a little bit of knowledge about the one Scottish labour MP and he is not at all as you describe but one of the good guys- that's why he's been re-elected to serve as an MP many times- and neither are most of the others in my view.

[Corky Smeek]

Fulmar, I have said on many occasions that I am not in the SNP. I have a number of issues with the way they operate and I am most certainly not their apologist.

Also, I didn't say anything about individual Labour MPs. Rather it was the way that the party as a whole has conducted itself, particularly with respect to IndyRef 1. Many individual Labour MPs have my full respect but the party as a whole falls far short in that regard.

[Fulmar]

Well, you labelled them with the B word en masse! Another of your sweeping statements!

[Corky Smeek]

Fulmar, if you read your contributions, even just on this thread, you will see you are not averse to a sweeping statement or two yourself.

[Fulmar]

I'm not sure I'm in your league though really! But honestly, it doesn't matter anyway- I could not care either way. there are far more things to worry about and as you pointed out ages ago and where I totally agree with you, the things that are at the top of my worry list are climate change, famine already present due largely to that and the raised possibility of nuclear war. I'm not that bothered when or if or ever there is an Indyref 2 as as far as I'm concerned it pales into insignificance compared to the real threats facing human existence and that of other innocent species with whom we share the planet.

[Corky Smeek]

I'm not sure I'm in your league though really! But honestly, it doesn't matter anyway- I could not care either way. there are far more things to worry about and as you pointed out ages ago and where I totally agree with you, the things that are at the top of my worry list are climate change, famine already present due largely to that and the raised possibility of nuclear war. I'm not that bothered when or if or ever there is an Indyref 2 as as far as I'm concerned it pales into insignificance compared to the real threats facing human existence and that of other innocent species with whom we share the planet.

Yes, yes all the sweeping statements are from me. Oops, there I go again. Sorry.

Has it not occurred to you that all of the problems you have listed have been caused, directly or indirectly, by governments and that if we had a government with social responsibility at its core we might be able to do our bit to reduce the impact of some of these.

Sitting on the moral high ground somehow imagining that maintaining the status quo (basically a 2-party system within the UK) is going to do any good is naive. (Getting a wee bit sweeping there again. I'll try harder.). Has any UK government - Tory or Labour - done anything meaningful over the last 50 years to mitigate the impact of any of the things you list? No!.

So, hoping that people who have done nothing of any consequence are suddenly going to have some sort of Damascene conversion is not realistic. If you are placing your hopes on resolving, "the real threats facing human existence and that of other innocent species with whom we share the planet." on a Labour election win then you may be disappointed.

Within the constraints of budget and consitutional legality the Scottish Government have done far more to make a positive contribution to many of the things you mention than any Westminster government.

To sum up; you seem to be suggesting that the best way to fix the problems you list is to stick with the system that has done nothing about them for the past 50 years whilst rejecting a change that could make a real impact. Or is that too sweeping?

[Fulmar]

I already said I don't care about sweeping statements or if either I or you make them- please move on! I don't care about point scoring either.
No, actually what I am longing for- and I believe that so are very many others whom I have spoken to- is something far more radical but it won't happen. I would totally support it if all the best brains from all the political parties whatever their affiliation and indeed from science and industry or anywhere else, would properly come together at government level and work to find solutions to the problems we face. And I would not limit it to within this country either but make it much wider than that- inter-governmental and beyond. The problems faced are global so so should be the solutions.
As far as I can judge, all political parties are seeking what I call more of 'business as usual or same old same old' and it isn't going to be that in the future in my view at least. I mean the mantra of 'economic growth' for example which basically means, in the west at least, producing more 'stuff' that they want people to buy when the resources of the planet for producing 'stuff' are exhausted and have been for a long time- and the people don't need the stuff anyway. We all know that time is running out but we choose to ignore it as that is far more comfortable. We have all been persuaded (and I'm as guilty of it as anyone), that we all do need to keep on buying 'stuff' when actually, we mostly don't. The fact that we are all being forced now to cut down on energy use is good for the planet as were the lockdowns during Covid but goodness knows, I don't want people to be going cold and hungry- I want those people to be helped to not be so. We personally have cut way back on our energy use and that's good as we can just about afford to do it and I'm not complaining about it either. However, as I am getting muddled now it is best to stop. But I have faith in action at community level where I have seen real changes taking place so that at least gives a bit of hope- and I have great faith in young people too.