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Thread: If The Supreme Court deems Indyref2 legal?

  1. #1
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    Default If The Supreme Court deems Indyref2 legal?

    Douglas Ross has said he and his party will play no part in Indyref2 which seems like a dog whistle for the wider No-voter public to boycott Indyref2.

    Do you think people who want Scotland to remain in the Union will actually boycott Indyref2 if the Supreme Court deems it legal for the Scottish Government to hold a referendum?

    And do you think Scotland will have international recognition of its independence if large numbers of unionists boycott a legal referendum?
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  2. #2

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    I recently read that there are less people who would vote YES now, than in the the previous attempt!
    And another very large sum of money, perhaps wasted.
    And the same Leader who threw Wee Eck under the Bus! I guess she tried for Jail but missed….Badly.

    Perhaps a ‘clean slate’ would be welcome.

    And for the ‘Slate’ writing materials, the best came from the Whalligoe Steps area. Just educating….The Masses!

  3. #3

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    I enjoy reading your riddles Horseman but haven't a clue what you're on about most of the time. You should go head to head with Gollum- you'd win!

  4. #4

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    Thanks. Gollum wasn't all evil!

    My thoughts of The Indyref2., was that a New Era should be the beginning of another run at Independence!
    Same old/Same old does not seem too popular. There has been ‘a lot of water under the Bridge’ since the last one. Much of it pretty messy!
    And…….all involved should be ‘of the same goal’! There cant be this awful ‘competing’ against each other. United we win, divided we fall!

    And the writing slates and pencils…….for the un-initiated……..
    As I was starting Lybster School these were being phased out, and Paper and pencils were being used.

    Now for you Fulmar, a writing slate is the same as a ‘roof slate’, and the pencil is carved like a wooden one, except there is no lead inside, and you write on the The Slate with the shaped piece of rock which is of a softer rock, found in the same place. We used them and they were very efficient. The one draw back is if the slate drops is breaks, so no proof of homework! And The Whalligoe Steps had the best quality.
    Twas just a ‘fun comment’!
    Or you can ‘Google it’! S

    Good luck Corky, but I am sure you will agree that this time ‘all’ should be on the same page!

  5. #5

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    Thank you, I know what a slate is as it happens! I just could not see the relevance of your remark and frankly, I still don't but hey, may be others do.
    How can all be on the same page when there is still the same division as before and folk don't have the same goal, quite clearly.

  6. #6

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    A few random musings:-

    I think we have to be clear on what the Supreme Court has been asked to do. Nicola Sturgeon has asked the SC to rule on whether the Scottish Government currently has the powers to hold IndyRef2 without first obtaining a S.30 agreement from the UK government. She has done this because, as she has stated on numerous occasions, she does not wish to hold a referendum that may be subject to legal challenge. The SC is not being asked to decide whether IndyRef 2 is legal or not. It is merely being asked to clarify where the power to hold one lies (Holyrood or Westminster). If the SC says the SG does not have the power to hold a referendum then a S.30 agreement will be sought from Boris Johnson. If he says "No" (which he probably will) then the next General Election in Scotland will be used as a referendum on the issue.

    A couple of other points that I think need stating:-

    Douglas Ross has just backed himself into a corner by saying his party will play no part in IndyRef2. I cannot believe that he is intending to sit on the sidelines and let everyone else make the decision. If I was a Unionist I'd be (even more) furious with him.

    If the SC says the SG has no powers to hold IndyRef2 on its own accord and, as expected, BJ says "No" to a S.30 agreement then Scotland is effectively being held captive in this Union. Can you imagine the outcry if the EU had said to the UK, "No, you cannot hold a Brexit referendum without our express approval"? Quite frankly, I don't see there being much difference in the situations. BJ cannot go on ignoring Scottish democracy.

    NS has made it very clear that she will not hold an illegal referendum. If the SC says the powers do not exist for the SG to hold a referendum and Boris rejects a S.30 agreement then the next GE will effectively be run as a single issue vote in Scotland.

    I am not an SNP member but I do think they have been very clever with this strategy. Any continued denial of IndyRef2 will confirm once and for all what Westminster thinks of Scotland and the Scots.

  7. #7

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    Thoughts…Doesn't the Scottish Gov’t have to apply to The UK Gov’t for permission to hold the Vote?
    If and when they received a NO, they then have to Appeal that decision.
    If and when the Appeal is denied, it can then go to The Supreme Court?…?

  8. #8

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    Oh, Horseman, Horseman, Horseman what are we going to do with you? That is what this thread is about - can Scotland hold a legal IndyRef without having to gain permission from the UK Gov't.

    You might find this video helpful


  9. #9

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    And this might also help:-


  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corky Smeek View Post
    Oh, Horseman, Horseman, Horseman what are we going to do with you? That is what this thread is about - can Scotland hold a legal IndyRef without having to gain permission from the UK Gov't.

    You might find this video helpful

    *******Thank you, but its all presumption and people being ‘sacked’. Great ‘sound bites’……but little substance.
    Canadian Law is based closely on The British System, and I can assure you this will not be a Quick process!

    Supreme Courts Are That! The Ultimate decision will be made or Not! They may not even hear it. It is their prerogative!

  11. #11

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    Horseman, just so you know the video you commented upon was from TLDR News. They claim to be independent, non-partisan and intent upon providing news in a simple and straightforward manner. TLDR stands for "Too long, didn't read".

    This will probably be a lengthy process. However, by asking the SC to consider the matter the Lord Advocate, acting on behalf of the SG, has got in there first thus preventing any (ill-intentioned) private groups or individuals from asking a similar question. If another group had been first to ask the SC to consider the matter then they could keep the court tied up in legal red tape for years thus preventing an answer being given and so delay any referendum.

    That is why I think the SG is being very clever in its approach. If the SC takes too long; refuses to hear the matter or decides against the SG then the next step will be to seek permission from HMG via a S.30 order. The likelihood is that HMG will be minded to say "no". However, if they do then they will be playing into the SG's hands by denying the democratic wishes of the Scottish electorate. That being the case the next General Election will be used as a referendum on the matter.

    What did you think of the "Claim of Right" video and the issues of legality it raises?

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corky Smeek View Post
    Horseman, just so you know the video you commented upon was from TLDR News. They claim to be independent, non-partisan and intent upon providing news in a simple and straightforward manner. TLDR stands for "Too long, didn't read".

    This will probably be a lengthy process. However, by asking the SC to consider the matter the Lord Advocate, acting on behalf of the SG, has got in there first thus preventing any (ill-intentioned) private groups or individuals from asking a similar question. If another group had been first to ask the SC to consider the matter then they could keep the court tied up in legal red tape for years thus preventing an answer being given and so delay any referendum.

    That is why I think the SG is being very clever in its approach. If the SC takes too long; refuses to hear the matter or decides against the SG then the next step will be to seek permission from HMG via a S.30 order. The likelihood is that HMG will be minded to say "no". However, if they do then they will be playing into the SG's hands by denying the democratic wishes of the Scottish electorate. That being the case the next General Election will be used as a referendum on the matter.

    What did you think of the "Claim of Right" video and the issues of legality it raises?
    *******Why the ALBA sign?…. good but each side have their own interpretation……but I see another One of Boris Boys is in trouble….how long can this last!

  13. #13

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    The latest poll (and it's only a poll) showed that the majority of those asked did not want a second referendum next October and have other priorities right now. Likewise, polls still show a slim majority in favour of remaining with the UK but of course, that could change.

  14. #14

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    The latest poll I have seen (Panelbase - as published in the Times) has Yes on 51% and No on 49% when Don't Knows are excluded.

    @ Horseman - Alba is the name of a relatively new political party whose aim is to achieve Scottish independence. This video was shot at their party conference.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corky Smeek View Post
    The latest poll I have seen (Panelbase - as published in the Times) has Yes on 51% and No on 49% when Don't Knows are excluded.

    @ Horseman - Alba is the name of a relatively new political party whose aim is to achieve Scottish independence. This video was shot at their party conference.
    Yes TY. I saw Salmond promoting it.

    I think you are going to have a ‘tough time’ getting the required Votes! And was just reading some have thoughts on a 2nd Brexit vote…..
    One cannot take those ‘promoters’ at face value. They are going to Fire/Sack everyone. Great for a final phrase and applauding.
    You gotta get more people working together……partnerships and promises galore.

    People need to know they are getting something out of the Divorce…….and the Pre-Nup…..even that can go bad!

    I have been involved in Government meetings where all parties are not on the same page. To force things thru people must agree ‘in principle’ to the thrust towards the Goal. You cannot have the SCOTS in a Turmoil with 1 or 2% points either way….and then as you say the unknown voters.
    There has to be CONSENSUS with a sound Majority or you are doomed again.
    I am more in favor of Scotland on it’s own now, as I look at the other sma’ Countries and how well they are doing.

    Why o’ Why is there such separation within Scotland?

  16. #16

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    Just read….Marie Todd stated ‘It’s time the give the people the Democratic Choice they voted for’!? Meaning Independence!….?

    The ‘people’ didn't vote for Independence…did they!

    I think Sturgeon and Marie Todd ‘do’ Photo Ops, just to keep themselves ‘relevant’! Same as Willie Mackay.
    Send their pics to the newspapers and stay in plain sight.

    I am not against any of them……this is the way Politicians do their business.
    Out of sight, out of mind! Keep the populace ‘bubbling mad’ but nothing gets done.

    It’s all about PHOTO OPS.

    Now…….if there was someone who could shake these people up, there could be change! But they are so ‘entrenched’ in their devices that the People have no one to go to. In Government they have their large salaries, with Fat Expense Accounts and can do pretty much anything they want, as you just think back over the last years…Secret Guests for fancy dinners and if they don’t like someone call the Law! etc etc!

    There is an adherent unfairness in the World. Elon Musk can call up The Pope and visit at will.
    Rich powerful people have the ball and run with it.
    I remember reading that in the late 1700’s, early 1800’s, something brought the Caithness people together…..Hundreds walked to Wick and confronted the Council I think, and things changed pretty rapidly!
    Its going to take another situation like that to get change.
    Why in……………..would they have another Independence vote if the odds were stacked against them! There has to be a Clear Majority of people for Separation or another large money waste!

    And Douglas Ross! What is wrong with him…..
    You have a continuing mess on your hands Corky……….take the reigns!
    Last edited by The Horseman; 05-Jul-22 at 15:00.

  17. #17

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    Well Corky etal.

    It seems the Status Quo is continuing for the Scots.
    Even with Boris out, likely things won’t change, as far as permission is concerned. And will the Supreme Court make a decision!
    They can say either…..
    Say, Yeah or Nay…or just not hear it. Anyway it could take much time, even tho’ it is said that this particular Court usually takes approx 12-14 weeks…….For a decision.
    Methinks The Populace is just too B…….Y Complacent! You have the best Welfare System in the World. By far!
    Last edited by The Horseman; 10-Jul-22 at 18:20.

  18. #18

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    SC decision due tomorrow. Any predictions?

  19. #19
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    Regardless of the UK Supreme Court’s decision, the people of Scotland should not have to seek permission from Westminster to have another independence referendum. Article 1 of both the United Nations International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the United Nations International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights reads:
    1. All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.
    2. All peoples may, for their own ends, freely dispose of their natural wealth and resources without prejudice to any obligations arising out of international economic co-operation, based upon the principle of mutual benefit, and international law. In no case may a people be deprived of its own means of subsistence.
    3. The States Parties to the present Covenant, including those having responsibility for the administration of Non-Self-Governing and Trust Territories, shall promote the realization of the right of self-determination, and shall respect that right, in conformity with the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations.
    In effect the people of the Scotland have the right to self-determination. In International Law no state or country has any right to tell them otherwise.
    'We are more alike, my friends, than we are unalike.'
    Maya Angelou

  20. #20

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    Couldn't agree more.

    I just have a horrible feeling the outcome of the SC's deliberations is going to a fudge of some sort. I sincerely it's hope not as this issue is not going to go away.

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