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Thread: A Very Dark Future

  1. #121

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    I believe the Rep from Orkney!
    Last edited by The Horseman; 02-Jul-20 at 12:29.

  2. #122

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    Corky, If you could only have a clear Vision of reality, you would also see It!
    I do!

  3. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horseman View Post
    I believe the Rep from Orkney!
    Why doesn't that surprise me?

  4. #124

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    And now she has completely lost the plot......

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53252760

    Coronavirus: Face coverings to become mandatory in Scottish shops

    With yet again, Orkney, Shetland and Caithness getting dragged down by policies that the megalomaniac deems required in Edinburgh and Glasgow. She is now becoming a serious risk to Scotland.

    To recap, she thinks its necessary for the single customer, in a shop on an island with a population of 40 to wear a mask. But yet, she still thinks that to-ing and froing actions of Iain Stewart are acceptable, even after he has been booted from the job.

    We need a border - Somewhere about Dunkeld I think. And an air / ferry bridge to the rest of the UK.

  5. #125
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,710

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    Quote Originally Posted by orkneycadian View Post
    And now she has completely lost the plot......

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53252760

    Coronavirus: Face coverings to become mandatory in Scottish shops....
    About time too... Very few people wearing masks up here. Might be very few cases but it would only take 1 or 2 superspreaders to see it rip through the place due to the amount of complacency up here. Just remember, by the time you know it's here, it's already too late.
    “We're trapped in the belly of this horrible machine....
    And the machine is bleeding to death."


  6. #126

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    @ Orkneycadian. Post not quoted out of respect for those who do not wish to be exposed to your particular brand of bile.

    What a complete and utter hypocrite you are. According to you, we are all one island and should have "centralised" government from Westminster. There should be no difference between Scotland and England and devolution should be abolished. Yet now you are calling for a border near Dunkeld. Who is going to establish this border if there is no devolution? Certainly not Boris who was appalled at the suggestion when it was raised at PMQs yesterday. Maybe the Duke of Atholl could mobilise the Atholl Highlanders and barricade the A9.

    You appear to think Nicola Sturgeon is "..a serious risk to Scotland." for the mere suggestion of curtailing movement north across the Border yet this appears to be the policy you are now advocating.

    If you are going to try to wind us Separatists up at least have the decency to assemble a coherent argument rather than that pile of jumbled thinking that you passed off as a post at 17h38.

  7. #127

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    I think that what we all should be committed to, irrespective of political inclination, is supporting those measures that allow some easing but attempt to keep us as safe as possible. It is so easy to criticise from the sidelines but none of this is easy and no one has definitive answers on what is right and what is wrong which makes it even harder to do. Polls show overwhelmingly that people in Scotland think that the government here- and Nicola Sturgeon - has handled the epidemic better than in England and generally with clearer messaging and that people support it. I watched interviews done by BBC news the other night of members of the Scottish public and all supported the mandatory wearing of face masks in shops. Now is the right time to do it with easing of travel restrictions and more people coming from everywhere. If everyone is wearing them in shops then all are that bit safer and if it saves even one person contracting the virus who otherwise would not have done then it is well worth it. I don't like wearing one and feel a bit strange in it but I'm doing it and if anybody has any tips on how to prevent your glasses from steaming up then please do tell!

  8. #128

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    Remember, Fulmar, at the beginning of this, we were told that facemasks were pointless, and that they should be saved for where they are of some use, viz, in a surgical / medical setting for medical staff to use. We have been through the peak of the cases, all going shopping without facemasks, and I have yet to hear of 1 case in Orkney picked up through maskless shopping.

    At the beginning of this, we were also told that "close contact" constituted being within 2 metres of someone for 15 minutes or more. We were told by all the scientific advisers at the time that being within 2 metres for less than 15 minutes posed little or no risk as the virus would not be able to transfer in sufficient quantities in that time. Now, passing someone walking in the opposite direction within 2m for less than a second is taboo.

    There are islands here in Orkney that have remained virtually cut off for more than 3 months. Their residents are not even allowed to travel to Kirkwall to visit the supermarkets. Instead, they are expected to use the island shops supported by a £5 a week shopping voucher from the local council. Meanwhile, those in Glasgow can travel to Edinburgh or beyond for shopping if they so wish. Our islanders here are effectively prisoners on their islands, prevented from boarding the ferries for things as simple as shopping. Meanwhile, these islands have had zero cases and zero fatalities.

    Now, what that shows is that you can create containment areas, or maybe more accurately, COVID Free Areas. People in those areas should be free to move around and do what they always do. Being on a COVID free island and behaving like its everywhere would be as worthwhile as taking precautions against marauding lions in in Wick.

    Where we have gone wrong, both as a Scottish country, and a United Kingdom, is failing to secure our island group (the UK) from the external threat of COVID. For months, our governments behaved completely irrationally by allowing people from outside the UK to freely come here and bring it with them. Only several months after lockdown, was there a wishy washy attempt at quarantine. Places like New Zealand, on the other hand, have always had an effective border, and were successful in all but eliminating COVID a few weeks ago, until they let their border guard down and allowed it back in again, ironically from the UK.

    New Zealanders don't have to wear face masks to go shopping and they can even go to watch rugby matches. They got it right. We got it woefully wrong, and are going further wrong by the day. And before the divisionists jump in, the Scottish Government have got it as badly wrong as the UK Government. Their collective failure to have a New Zealand grade of virus import protection, along with their view that North Ronaldsay should be treated the same way as Govan, means that they are are bad. The saving grace for England now is that they are starting to recognise the immense damage that these steps are taking, and that the pill is very much worse than that ill. At least England are doing something really constructive to try and remedy it, though I am sure they wish that they had simply had New Zealand grade borders in the first place.

  9. #129

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    Yes, ok but NZ cannot stay isolated forever- no country can- and the moment it opens up (as it must) the virus is back. NZ may be free and easy now but they are not at the end of this yet by a long way, are they? Who is to say that face masks may be brought in there as well in the future.
    I do not know the situation on the Orkney Islands in detail but people can now travel- the restrictions on 5 miles have been lifted- so locals can move about now at least and holiday makers are now beginning to come up. Orkney attracts a lot of holiday makers and much of it's local economy largely depends on those people coming back. I feel you are looking back not into the future. We all have to find a way of co-existing with this virus until means can be found to make it less deadly (either by a vaccine or other drugs or a natural decline in virulence which can also happen). Face masks are recognised to be a small measure- one little tool- but why wouldn't I or you want to use that tool just now if it helps a bit? It will not last forever but is needed just now and surely a very small sacrifice- it's only in shops and on public transport- is that too much for any of us to do? I don't think so.

  10. #130

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    A recent panelbase poll shows the Scottish public to be very supportive of the SG's approach to managing Covid19. In particular, they seem to support the suggestion of restricting travel across the border.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  11. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fulmar View Post
    Yes, ok but NZ cannot stay isolated forever- no country can- and the moment it opens up (as it must) the virus is back. NZ may be free and easy now but they are not at the end of this yet by a long way, are they? Who is to say that face masks may be brought in there as well in the future.
    I do not know the situation on the Orkney Islands in detail but people can now travel- the restrictions on 5 miles have been lifted- so locals can move about now at least and holiday makers are now beginning to come up. Orkney attracts a lot of holiday makers and much of it's local economy largely depends on those people coming back. I feel you are looking back not into the future. We all have to find a way of co-existing with this virus until means can be found to make it less deadly (either by a vaccine or other drugs or a natural decline in virulence which can also happen). Face masks are recognised to be a small measure- one little tool- but why wouldn't I or you want to use that tool just now if it helps a bit? It will not last forever but is needed just now and surely a very small sacrifice- it's only in shops and on public transport- is that too much for any of us to do? I don't think so.
    Nicola Sturgeon has said a number of times, right from the beginning of this, that measures would be tailored to suit the area. This has simply not happened, and small islands in Orkney jump to the same tune as Sauchiehall Street, even though the situation is very very different.

    I'll use North Ronaldsay again as an example. The policy of Orkney Ferries, as published on their website remains;

    Travel to and from the islands for leisure and recreation by ferry is not encouraged. Tourism has not restarted and tourist facilities including accommodation will not be open. It is not possible to stay away from home overnight except in certain clearly defined circumstances, such as in the creation of an “extended household”.

    Whereas in Southern Scotland, travel for more than 5 miles for leisure and recreation is not discouraged and is permitted. North Ronaldsay has a population of 72, and rather limited shopping opportunities. You could go into the shop there, be the only one in it, and have to wear the same face mask as you would in Tescos in Govan. Sure, you might think you are reducing the risk by wearing a mask in the North Ronaldsay shop. But you could also argue that carrying a big game gun in Wick will reduce your risk of being eaten by a lion. Yes, its highly unlikely that a lion will chase you down Bridge Street in Wick and eat you, but just in case, you would be safer if you carried a large calibre rifle with you.

    New Zealand has always had a strict border, particularly for bio security. That's been the case for years, if not decades. Have you ever tried to bring for example, an apple in your baggage into New Zealand? Entry into New Zealand, even for UK nationals, is not a given, and you do have to provide your justification on entry. At times of pandemic, then that free entry is easily and simply stopped. Unlike the UK, where we have no ability it seems to stop anyone wandering in, with a fever, a dry cough and a loss of sense of taste or smell.

    Right, must go off to the shops. Time to put on the anti mosquito hood, as there could be a very small chance of being bitten by a swarm of mosquitoes in the Kirkwall Lidl. A small chance I will grant you, but why wouldn't we take such precautions?

  12. #132

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    Mortality figures from Thursday last:-

    Scotland: 1
    Wales: 1
    N. Ireland: 2
    England: 133

    I'll let people draw their own conclusions about the success, or otherwise, of how well the respective governments have managed the pandemic.

  13. #133

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    You would be arrested if you carried a rifle along Bridge Street!
    I doubt if you would be arrested for not wearing a face mask in North Ronaldsay but then, everyone there will know you and that you haven't done so and you might face disapproval, I don't know. Depends how people there feel about it, I guess. You are, however, still looking back. How about when the ferries start disembarking the tourists again which will begin very soon. Maybe one of them will go into that shop on North Ronaldsay with no face mask on- what then. How will you know that person isn't an asymptomatic carrier/spreader of the virus? You can't see the virus whereas you can see a marauding lion- that is the point. I would wear the mosquito net as it will probably keep out the midges and they are rife now.
    I've never had the money to travel to NZ so I really can't comment on that- but NZ needs tourists to support its economy, so far as I know. If I'd had an apple I would have eaten it long before touchdown as it is such a long flight to get there- that I do know for sure.

  14. #134

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    OK, so should we be actively protecting ourselves against anything that could pose a harm to our health? Is now the time for us all to start wearing stab proof vests to guard against the very real prospect of being attacked with a knife? In England and Wales (sorry, no time to find UK wide statistics, there were over 43,000 knife crimes in the 12 months up to March 2019. We know that there are all too many stabbings these days, especially in places like London and Glasgow. As well as face masks to protect ourselves and others against COVID, is it also time for us to wear stab vests in public? And should the UK law be changed to allow civilians to protect themselves against other forms of attack by legalising things like pepper spray and tasers?

    We know that trying to legislate against knives being carried in public places simply doesn't work, so is it time to only go shopping in suitable PPE? And if not, why is it acceptable to continue to expose our citizens to the very real risk of being stabbed?

  15. #135

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    Ignorance or deception, I'm not sure which category that last post from the Daily Mail's Northern Isles correspondent falls into.

    It may be that he is ignorant of the successes of the Scottish Violence Reduction Unit in reducing knife crime in Scotland. That being the case this article may help:- https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-45572691

    A more likely explanation would appear to be deception. He only produces knife crime statistics for England & Wales using the excuse of time pressures. I may be cynical but could it be that the success of the initiative in Scotland would spoil his narrative of always doing Scotland down at every opportunity? It wouldn't look good for him to have to acknowledge a Scottish success would it? It might look like we are a quite capable population able to come up with our own ideas that work and are copied by English police forces.

  16. #136

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    Orkneycadian, like many other people you are actually missing the point. Someone like a policeman wears a stab vest to protect himself from attack and injury. We are asked to wear a face mask, not to protect ourselves (which it does not do) but to protect others. However, if all are wearing them in a shop or on a bus as well as observing the social distancing, then all are that little bit more protected.
    Throughout the pandemic, many have been scared of getting Covid 19 but they have been even more worried about passing it on to others and I've lost count of the number of times a friend or family member has said 'I couldn't stand it if I passed it on to someone else, maybe not even knowing that I had it in the first place'.
    The science has come down a bit more now on the side of the benefit of wearing face masks (even if only small), that is why the measure has or will be introduced.
    So, I ask you again, why do you appear to be so unwilling to take a small measure that will help protect your friends and neighbours in Orkney? Orkney is a lovely friendly place full of great folk- so why, why, why?

  17. #137

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    In relation to your second sentence above Fulmar, in the shocking attack in Glasgow a week past Friday, just 1 of the 6 victims was a policeman. The other 5 of the 6 were civilians. A week or 2 before that, the 3 men killed in Reading as a result of a different stabbing frenzy were all civilians as well. So just from those 2 incidents, being a police officer does not put you at the highest risk of being on the receiving end of a knife attack. Civilians seem to be more likely to be attacked. So, to then take your second last sentence, why would the government not take the small measure of mandating stab proof clothing to protect you, your friends and neighbours? Apparantly, some folk, especially in London, are paying £30 for covert stab proof (allegedly, at £30 theres maybe more a false sense of security going on.....) clothing that is covert and worn under existing shirts, tops, etc. Now, if it only costs £30, can be worn under clothing and might save you from being stabbed, why, why, why is our Governments not making its use compulsory? The science of stab vests is a lot more accurate than that of facemasks. I note that stab vests have very stringent rating categories, depending on the force of the attack.

    OK, so thats my point on stab vests. Coming back to masks. So, we say that they make a small difference to COVID transmission. Should we now also wear them for the rest of time to mitigate transmission of the seasonal flu, bearing in mind that that flu has the capability of killing thousands a winter in Scotland and tens of thousands in a winter in the UK? I have no doubt that any perceived benefits of masks in reducing COVID transmission will have a similar benefit in reducing the incidence of seasonal flu as well. So why would we not wear masks all winter too to try and reduce the number of seasonal flu victims?

    To go a bit further, if we all, when out walking as pedestrians, wore an inflatable sumo suit (Google it.....), we would be a little bit more protected against being hit by a vehicle. I wouldn't like to get stabbed in one though, or I might take off and fly in circles like an escaping balloon..... But that air cushion may help reduce the level of injuries sustained by pedestrians if struck by a vehicle. So why will the government not make it compulsory to walk around in one, "just in case"? There are plenty people injured by being struck by vehicles each year, so why, why, why would a precaution that will reduce the likelihood of injury or death not be made compulsory?

  18. #138

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    Most of what you say is a total red herring in my view. Me wearing a stab vest won't protect you from being stabbed (unlikely though it is that you will be stabbed). Me wearing a face mask in a shop alongside of you might protect you from Covid 19 if I was infected but did not know it. You can do something to protect others but you don't want to, that's what it amounts to, isn't it.
    Personally, when I have had a nasty respiratory virus (although I don't think I have ever had true flu and thankfully, I get the jab), I have stayed at home away from others (a) because I tend not to feel at all well in those circumstances and (b) because I didn't want anyone else to catch it off me. I certainly would not go anywhere near anyone elderly or vulnerable and would not go to usual activities while ill- that is actually general medical advice and what you should do. I absolutely do take flu seriously and now that masks are here and being worn, if I absolutely had to go somewhere while unwell in those circumstances, I would put one on. Also, I am someone who, if and when someone has complained about having a rotten cold and coughing and spluttering in company (and I'm sure everyone reading will be able to identify with this), will be the one who backs off and tells them to keep it to themselves because I don't want to catch it.
    I guess you and I are very different people and with very different ideas about what constitutes social responsibilty. Covid 19 is carrying off thousands world wide in a rapid and nasty way and it is not done with any country or population yet and there are upwards of 44,000 reasons here in these islands why I am committed to doing all that I can do in any way I can. You can go on all you like until the cows come home and no doubt you will but that is it for me.
    Last edited by Fulmar; 06-Jul-20 at 17:25.

  19. #139

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    Blooming cows have still not arrived home - Word is that they are sheltering in some disused WW2 bunkers in case Foot and Mouth comes along. And they are apparently wearing some WW2 gas masks in case they pick up anthrax.

    As I recall, there was never any intention in this caper that we would not all get coronavirus. Instead, we were told that we had to "flatten the curve" otherwise the NHS would be overwhelmed. Instead, we have an NHS that has been totally underwhelmed. Most of the flagship field hospitals, including the Louisa Jordan in Glasgow have never seen a single patient, and are now dreaming up things for them to do. I think London's, at the peak saw 19 out of a possible 4000 patients. Meanwhile, reports abound of hospital staff having nothing to do.

    We were told that we would be woefully short of ventilators. Industry was asked to help. They did, then were told we didn't need them after all.

    So, in terms of curve flattening, we are doing great. In fact, there's hardly any curve left, and in Orkney we have flat lined. But the downside is that we are not attaining any natural immunity. A bit like swathing yourself and your house in so much disinfectant cleaner that your immune system goes to sleep.

    The BBC report today that 80% of people who have had positive COVID tests had no symptoms. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53320155

    Now, that takes a fair bit of doing, given that you only get a test if you have symptoms..... So, 85% of people who have it, don't even know about it and 80% of people who test positive have no symptoms.

    Then we hear on Radio Scotland this morning, Kay Adams telling us that up to 35,000 people could die of untreated cancer, thanks to the health service going on hold due to Conoravirus? And on top of that, the Office for National Statistics are now telling us on https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...ding26june2020 that the death rate has fallen below the weekly average for this time of year for the 2nd week in a row. OK, early days yet, but does this suggest that some of those who died in the last 3 months with Conoravirus are the ones who would statistically be dying in the next 3 months anyway?

    And now, there's the suggestion that by putting on a mask, that we were told 3 months ago was a waste of time, will make your shopping trips safer for you and those around you? And all this is expected to be believed? Sure, we believed it early on, even though we all knew that the horse had well and truly bolted through the border door. And that's what this now seems to be - A diversion tactic from the massive failure that was to let this virus into our country in the first place, even though on the whole its rather benign, unless you already happen to be at deaths door, in which case, it might yank you in a little quicker than you were expecting. You say, Fulmar, if you are still reading, that we need to look forward, and not back. But without looking back we are in danger of enacting the saying which has been rightly or wrongly attributed to Einstein - "The definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again, whilst hoping for different results". So, if we only look forward, and not back, but hope that the "problem" will go away, without tackling the root cause, then we are the stupid ones.

    So, to reassure you Fulmar, yes, I will wear a mask when I have to, just like all the other sheeple. We have to now on ferries and soon to be in shops. Will it make a blind hoot of difference? I doubt it, other than to give some of the sheeple a false sense of security, and make them feel all warm inside for "doing their bit"
    Last edited by orkneycadian; 07-Jul-20 at 14:42.

  20. #140

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    @ Orkneycadian - who probably won't read this, but what the heck! You said the following:-

    "And now, there's the suggestion that by putting on a mask, that we were told 3 months ago was a waste of time, will make your shopping trips safer for you and those around you?".

    Three months ago the science told us masks were not likely to be very effective. Now, in the light of all the new knowledge and experience gained whilst managing the pandemic, the scientists have revised their opinion and have suggested that wearing masks may have some benefit; not to the wearers but to those in close proximity to the wearer.

    This is pretty much the standard way that scientific knowledge is gained - hypothesise, test, refine, repeat - and has been for centuries. To blame-shift towards scientists is ludicrous.

    Stop scaremongering.

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