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Thread: Bullet dodged

  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goodfellers View Post
    Anyone else think we made the right decision in 2014?

    Oil virtually worthless, rather than the $130/barrel SNP figures predicted.
    Very much so. It doesn't even bear thinking about what Scotland would have looked like in 2020, having gone it alone. All that oil and tourism revenue?

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by orkneycadian View Post
    Very much so. It doesn't even bear thinking about what Scotland would have looked like in 2020, having gone it alone. All that oil and tourism revenue?
    Yes, yes, how silly of me not to realise. An Independent Scotland would have been the only country in the world to have suffered any detrimental economic impact from the pandemic. How could I have been so blind all these years? And there was me thinking that as an independent, oil-rich country with a considerable sovereign wealth fund, built up during the good years, and still a member of the EU we might be better insulated from the worst effects of any economic downturn than, the UK for instance. The UK has squandered its oil revenue and divorced itself from the biggest trading bloc on the planet to go it alone and is now facing the worst recession in 300 years.

    Yes, it's all becoming clear now. All that oil. If only we didn't have so damned much of it. And what about all that lovely countryside which saw Scotland voted the most beautiful country in the world. Jeez, if only Scotland was a dump and no-one wanted to come. I mean really, we'd be far better off without any oil or tourism. And now that the veil has been drawn from my eyes I see that being in the Union with an utterly incompetent government in Westminster and facing a disastrous Brexit is a far better option for Scotland, I see it now. How could I have got it so wrong?

    Open your eyes and stop being the apologist in chief for this utterly discredited Union.

  3. #23

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    Allow me as Absconded Scotsman to point out the following.....

    Where does Scotland get it’s money from? Simple Q!

    Answer.....The Scottish Consolidated Fund Block Grant, from the UK Government.
    EU Funds
    Scottish Income Tax.

    And....Scotland ran a 9.4B deficit for 2019.

    Ain’t that the Truth! Eh....

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horseman View Post
    Allow me as Absconded Scotsman to point out the following.....

    Where does Scotland get it’s money from? Simple Q!

    Answer.....The Scottish Consolidated Fund Block Grant, from the UK Government.
    EU Funds
    Scottish Income Tax.

    And....Scotland ran a 9.4B deficit for 2019.

    Ain’t that the Truth! Eh....
    No, it is NOT the truth. You seem to be suggesting that Scotland only survives because of handouts from the UK and EU.

    Does it surprise you that Scotland has only 8.2% of the UK population but contributes 15% of UK GDP? That's rather impressive don't you think for a country that BritNats like to characterise as an economic basket case?

    The simple fact is that somewhere between 40% and 50% of all revenue generated in Scotland is retained by Westminster.

    Also, the myth about the deficit has been debunked umpteen times on here. In simple terms Scotland is expressly forbidden to run a budget deficit. Any deficit which is ascribed to Scotland is that which Westminster says is Scotland's share of the UK's deficit. This is of course an entirely notional figure derived for purely political purposes and has been arrived at without consultation with the Scottish Government.

    Please don't succumb to the Scottish Cringe. It's what they want you to do.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horseman View Post
    Where does Scotland get it’s money from? Simple Q!

    Answer.....
    ......Scottish Income Tax.
    And alas, I suspect we will now see the full effect of Scotland being the part of the UK with the highest tax rate. Though the Scottish Government have largely subsisted on handouts from the UK over these last few months, you can bet that the high tax rate in Scotland will be used to full effect to claw some of that back, though I would somehow doubt that Scotland will then pay that back to the UK. We just need to look at the disparity in the way the hospitality support payments have been handled in Scotland vs the rest of the UK. In Scotland, 1 payment, irrespective of the number of premises - In the rest of the UK, 1 payment per site.

  6. #26

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    The Stats I laid out here, came from what I considered an accurate Doc, Perhaps not.
    We will all be owing the Tax Man. No doubt about that!

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horseman View Post
    The Stats I laid out here, came from what I considered an accurate Doc, Perhaps not.
    We will all be owing the Tax Man. No doubt about that!
    Who produced the accurate Doc...the Scottish government or one of the newspapers? If it was the 2018-2019 GERS Accounts... then you will have read how much of "our" spending is done for us by Westminster, whether we like/want/need it or not. In 2018-2019, Westminster debited us, on top of our agreed budget spending, 12+ billion to pay for whatever it is Westminster thinks they do for us that we can't do better ourselves. I can never understand the idiocy of people who look at the GERs figures and decide that an annual snapshot of the economy of Scotland in the Union can be extrapolated to represent the Scottish economy under independence, as if Scotland would continue to run the country with London as its main focus, and with parts of every department following laws/rules set out by Westminster (and paying for that privilege), as is the case now.

    In 2018-2019, Westminster debited us with more than the PESA outurn figure for the total administration and wages costs for 21 UK Government departments, at least nine of which are pretty much England, or England and Wales, only, as they have devolved equivalents in Scotland...or nearly as much as the TME of the Cabinet Office. By my calculations, the admin of the departments dealing with reserved responsibilities like the FCO, HMRC, DWP, Treasury etc came to 4+ billion of the 10+ billion Departmental administration total.

    Nothing wrong with having a deficit, as long as you can afford to pay it back eventually,meet the interest in the meantime, and still manage to meet your other commitments....and don't you find it "interesting" that, as part of a "Union", Scotland, NI and Wales are always in deficit to a greater extent than England, although they only get to spend what Westminster gives them and also get debited by Westminster for anything Westminster thinks they should pay? To the logical, spending 12+ billion a year on departments in Westminster, helping to fund Westminster's hundreds of thousands of civil servants and military personnel, who predominantly pay tax in England, is money which could be better spent in an independent Scotland on our own government departments with employees paying their taxes in Scotland.

    The Union will never be good for Scotland as long as it is run as if London was the centre of the universe and the other three countries just have to suck it up. London and the South East of England syphons up money from everywhere else in the UK, because banks, insurance companies, most big businesses, in fact, are headquartered in London, but the actual work done to support those businesses takes place mostly outside London, by people much less well paid than CEOs and senior civil servants. As far as I can see, the UK exists solely as a vehicle for London to leech off...our internal version of an off-shore tax haven where value added elsewhere gets sucked into London's maw and is counted as solely London's income.

    Perhaps you can explain to me why you think Scotland alone in the world is incapable of being independent and why you think it needs the "broad shoulders" of England to lean on.

  8. #28

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    Oddquine,
    Firstly I have been ‘gone’ a long time, and don’t know the intricacies of UK Politics. We have our own probs.
    But as I said somewhere else, the No side won, and the other side lost. Simples.
    My feeling is ‘get on with it’ accepting these facts!
    Oh....tell me why Scotland wanted to remain in the EU?
    I know we are a stubborn contrarian people But......

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oddquine View Post
    Perhaps you can explain to me why you think Scotland alone in the world is incapable of being independent and why you think it needs the "broad shoulders" of England to lean on.
    In a very short response (my own view, not answering on behalf of The Horseman)......

    "Because to be capable of independence, the majority of the citizens would have to want it. If not, we would not be an independent country, but a dictatorship. The citizens were asked in a legal, "once in a lifetime" referendum. And the citizens said No."

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horseman View Post
    Oddquine,
    Firstly I have been ‘gone’ a long time, and don’t know the intricacies of UK Politics. We have our own probs.
    But as I said somewhere else, the No side won, and the other side lost. Simples.
    My feeling is ‘get on with it’ accepting these facts!
    Oh....tell me why Scotland wanted to remain in the EU?
    I know we are a stubborn contrarian people But......
    That was six years ago, a political generation (in fact, given the number of GEs since then, we are in our third political generation)...and the No side won on a lot of promises which have come to nothing and a lot of threats, which have been visited upon us even after voting NO. The UK we live in now, is not the UK we voted to stay in...it is that simple.

    We have been "getting on with it" since 2014...it is the other side who have never let it go...they talk about independence much more than we do...six years on and our Tory MP still mithers on about fighting against independence in every leaflet or taxpayer-funded report about how little he does in Westminster, his constituents get.

    Scotland wanted to stay in the EU because the EU is much nicer to us than Westminster is (and I'm only half joking). The EU has funded projects in Scotland, via the Social Fund, the Regional Development Fund (which focuses on correcting regional imbalances), the Horizon Scheme, the Maritime and Fisheries funding scheme, CAP etc, which would never have happened if left to Westminster funding. Apart from that, on a personal level. when I lived in Caithness, the local doctors were both from the EU, as was the surgeon who operated on me at Caithness General and at least two other doctors there that I knew of at the time. I can't say I have noticed many of those folk who shouted about "foreigners taking our jobs" rushing to replace the doctors, anaesthetists and other medical personnel we decided we didn't want here.

    As you haven't yet explained to me why you think Scotland alone in the world is incapable of being independent and why you think it needs the "broad shoulders" of England to lean on, I won't be holding my breath waiting for you to answer this question.... Why do you think we shouldn't want to remain in the EU?

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by orkneycadian View Post
    The citizens were asked in a legal, "once in a lifetime" referendum. And the citizens said No."
    These BritNats move the goalposts all the time, don't they? Presumably "once in a generation" was getting too scary for them now that nearly 6 years has elapsed since Indyref 1 so now it has to be "once in a lifetime".

  12. #32

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    United we Stand...Divided we..........!

    And OQ.....Funding is primary to the Divisive Group?

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horseman View Post
    United we Stand...Divided we..........!

    And OQ.....Funding is primary to the Divisive Group?
    Could you please expalin what you mean by Funding is primary to the Divisive Group ? I'm struggling to make sense of it......what funding and what divisive group?
    Last edited by Oddquine; 22-May-20 at 19:29.

  14. #34

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    Scotland wanted to stay in the EU because the EU is much nicer to us than Westminster is (and I'm only half joking). The EU has funded projects in Scotland, via the Social Fund, the Regional Development Fund (which focuses on correcting regional imbalances), the Horizon Scheme, the Maritime and Fisheries funding scheme, CAP etc, which would never have happened if left to Westminster funding.

    ********As above OQ! Freebies!
    And Divisive means what it is! Not in agreement/ hostility!

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horseman View Post
    Scotland wanted to stay in the EU because the EU is much nicer to us than Westminster is (and I'm only half joking). The EU has funded projects in Scotland, via the Social Fund, the Regional Development Fund (which focuses on correcting regional imbalances), the Horizon Scheme, the Maritime and Fisheries funding scheme, CAP etc, which would never have happened if left to Westminster funding.

    ********As above OQ! Freebies!
    And Divisive means what it is! Not in agreement/ hostility!
    Ah...right..so the divisive group is the Scots for voting remain? If you are asking if we just want to be in the EU because of the funding...my honest answer is I'm not too fussed about being in the EU...EFTA would do me and we could pick and choose which EU set-ups we took part in (and paid our share into). I never did understand why we came out of EFTA in the first place.

    A big part of the reason Scotland voted to stay in the Union in 2014 was because for a year and a half, pretty much any time you opened a paper or listened to current affairs/news we were being told that the only guaranteed way to be in the EU was to vote NO...and the Scots mostly liked the freedom of movement in both directions, as our deaths outstip our births and have for a fair while, so we need immigrant workers, even if only to help fund our pensioners. So why would you expect that we would be delighted because England and Wales voted to come out of the EU, two years later, dragging us behind them on their coat-tails?

    It isn't as if the UK was/is even the biggest net contributor to the EU...though to listen to the Brexit gang you'd have been forgiven for thinking it was the ONLY net contributor.

  16. #36

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    I think the EU will now see big changes post corona virus and economic impact of that.

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oddquine View Post
    So why would you expect that we would be delighted because England and Wales voted to come out of the EU, two years later, dragging us behind them on their coat-tails
    I really must pay more attention. I cannot for the life of me recall an English EU referendum, nor a Welsh one. All I can remember is the UK referendum on membership of the EU that was held back in 2016. I seem to remember that one well, even the announcement the morning after, where the number of votes cast for, and against were read out live on radio and TV.

    I must have completely missed the England and Welsh ones? Come to think of it, I must have missed the Scottish one as well. I distinctly rember the only ballot paper I saw said "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

    Can you enlighten me as to when these regional specific referendums were, as I have completely missed them.

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fulmar View Post
    I think the EU will now see big changes post corona virus and economic impact of that.
    What do you think those changes will be?

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fulmar View Post
    I think the EU will now see big changes post corona virus and economic impact of that.
    And we won't see any economic impact at all, I suppose with the coronavirus, the removing ourselves from the EU and attaching ourselves to the USA versions of health care and food standards?

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oddquine View Post
    And we won't see any economic impact at all
    Quote Originally Posted by Oddquine View Post
    I suppose with the coronavirus
    A vast economic impact, the worst the country has seen in 300 years - A sustained depression that will make the 1930's look positively prosperous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oddquine View Post
    the removing ourselves from the EU
    The Remoaners say there will be a negative economic impact. But that will be completely insignificant now compared to the Coronavirus Mega Depression
    The Brexiteers meanwhile recognise the positive economic impact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oddquine View Post
    attaching ourselves to the USA versions of health care and food standards?
    As a free country, we will be able to pick and choose what we want to do - Its not a given. Meanwhile, I must go and put some chicken on for dinner. I really must get that cooker fixed - It sometimes cuts out mid cooking, and the oven temperature has a mind of its own. Goes up and down all over the place. Hmmmm, which chicken will I be safer with? A raw UK spec one that the NHS say most likely has camphylobactor? Or one that's had the same disinfecting treatment as the water I am going to boil the tatties in, and the salad I am going to serve it up with?

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