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Thread: Coronavirus

  1. #461

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    Orkneycadian, your splitting of hairs is beyond belief with your 'dues' and 'withs'. When someone has terminal cancer, quite often what will ultimately carry them off is organ failure or pneumonia, not the actual cancer. So do you then say that is what the poor person died of rather than the cancer- no, of course not. Without cancer the person would not have died and without Covid infection, people would not be dying at that particular moment either.

  2. #462
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    There is, or should be, a tremendous difference between Due and With. It was Matt Hancock himself who presented the example of someone who tested positive in March, being run over by a bus in June, and having the death certificate "mention" Convid-19. The government themselves have stated that only about 4-5% of "withs" are "dues". That's a tremendous difference.

  3. #463

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    Right then, here is a set of common circumstances that often happen. Say there is someone with advanced cancer who has a non existent immune system due to possibly months of chemo and an immune system that has been attempting to combat the tumours, who now develops a recurrent infection that does not respond to antibiotics due to all the above and who sadly dies due to that (please note there are two 'dues' in that sentence)! So my question is, what would you say the person died of if you were issuing a death certificate? If the person had not had cancer and had been in rude health, they probably (a) would not have got the recurrent infection in the first place (b) would have had a functioning immune system that could have dealt with it and (c) if that was not the case, then antibiotics would have kicked the infection into touch. Did they die of cancer or not?
    Now apply this to a Covid patient who say has type 1 diabetes that is normally well controlled and who is rigorous with their blood tests and insulin injections. That person gets Covid (and as we know, any infection can throw things off course for someone with diabetes, never mind Covid but who would usually survive such an infection) and sadly also becomes very ill and dies. What, in your view did this person die off? As far as I'm concerned it is Covid since without that, he or she would still be walking about and leading their life with their diabetes well under control.
    There are going on for 44,000 people in the UK who have died from Covid 19.
    Last edited by Fulmar; 20-Oct-20 at 08:34.

  4. #464
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    OK, so in the first circumstance, the person with advanced cancer died of cancer. Alas, it was in an advanced state, and many more people die of cancer than of (due or with) conoravirus. Its a sad fact, but people have been dying of cancer for centuries, probably millenia, and they were doing that long before convid came along. In fact, in my post in http://forum.caithness.org/showthrea...75#post1194875 there were at least 4 specific cancers in the "top 10 causes of death" in England in August. Convid was in 23rd place.

    In the second circumstance, the type 1 diabetic died of Convid. Type 1 diabetes is not generally a fatal condition, providing it is managed well. So I would agree with your opinion.

    To put forward a few more, similar examples.....

    An old dear of 93 lives in a care home. She has had dementia / Alzheimers for the last 10 years, and over the last few months, her condition has deteriorated to the extent that she doesn't recognise any of her family, or any of the care home staff. She views them all as trying to "do bad things to her", and has been refusing personal care, food and drinks for the last week. For the last few days of her life, she just "gave up". On the day before she died, the care home carried out a screening for Convid of all residents. The old dear tested positive, yet she showed no symptoms. Even up to the point she died, she was not exhibiting shortness of breath, coughing or fever. She just slipped away, unfortunately, as so many with that condition do. As she tested positive for Convid within 28 days of her death, she is included in the statistics for "deaths involving conoravirus"

    Bob is 43 and in rudely good health. One day, he notices he has all the published symptoms of conoravirus. He phones up and books a test, and is asked to drive to a test centre 50 miles away from his home. He duly takes the test, and the centre staff advise him they will text him the results when they are available, but in the meantime, he should go straight home and self isolate. On the way home, on a blind summit, Bob finds a driver on the wrong side of the road, recklessly overtaking another vehicle. Despite his valiant attempts at evasive action, Bob and the reckless driver are involved in a head on collision. Tragically, Bob is killed instantly. Several hours later, after being cut from the mangled wreckage and being taken off to the morgue, Bob's phone beeps. Its the lab with his test result. It was positive. Bob's death is included in the Conoravirus statistics for that day as he had tested positive with 28 days of his untimely death.

    Jimmy is 71 and ordinarily enjoys good health. Last month, he had a bit of a cough, so went for a test. It was positive. He did as instructed and self isolated for a couple of weeks. His cough got better and within a week he felt right as rain again. Yesterday morning, Jimmy's daughter found him dead in bed when her phone calls were not answered and she went round to see if he was OK. Turns out, he had a massive and catastrophic stroke in his sleep, and died from it very quickly. As he tested positive for coronavirus 3 and a half weeks before, he is included in the statistics.

    You get the gist.....

  5. #465

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    I feel we have made some progress as before, you were insisting that anyone with any pre-existing health condition somehow did not count and should be excluded. So, your figures were reduced down to a truly ridiculous low level which clearly did not reflect what actually happened in our hospitals which would not have been full and overwhelmed if it was only the fantasy numbers that you came up with.

  6. #466
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    Not at all, Fulmar. I had always pointed to the Government figure if 4%. Hence the statement that the real figure was in the 2 to 2.5 k region.

  7. #467

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    So why were the hospitals so overwhelmed then in many parts of the UK? If the people were not sick with Covid, what was happening- was it all made up? You can't have it both ways.

  8. #468

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    Quote Originally Posted by orkneycadian View Post
    Don't you read the postings? Those that wish to, wrap themselves up in alcohol soaked cotton wool and stay at home at their own expense. The rest get on with it. Deaths are recorded only as due to conoravirus and not with conoravirus. So right away, the media divide the number they are using by 20, and we are down at about 2k territory. And we start paying attention to the 23 causes of death that were above conoravirus in England in August, and put everything back into perspective.
    Fails to understand that people are staying at home to protect other people not themselves...
    Bizarrely compares coronavirus to smoking.
    Has no plans to protect the sick or elderly, will happily throw them to the wolves.
    Worst of all can't see the impact on the NHS of an out-of-control coronavirus spread

  9. #469
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    Regarding NHS dentistry, the good news is that the range of NHS dental procedures available is due to return to pre-pandemic levels on 1 November.

    The bad news is that NHS dentists' fears of struggle to meet demand.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-fife-54631039

  10. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fulmar View Post
    So why were the hospitals so overwhelmed then in many parts of the UK? If the people were not sick with Covid, what was happening- was it all made up? You can't have it both ways.
    Overwhelmed? With boredom? I know if hospital staff who say they have never drunk so much tea in their lives. In England, some NHS staff faced disciplinary action for setting up improvised 10 pin bowling alleys in hospital corridors on nightshift to alleviate the boredom.

    The much publicised Nightingale hospitals still remain empty of Conoravirus patients.

    What is this overwhelming you speak of?

  11. #471

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    Quote Originally Posted by orkneycadian View Post
    Overwhelmed? With boredom? I know if hospital staff who say they have never drunk so much tea in their lives. In England, some NHS staff faced disciplinary action for setting up improvised 10 pin bowling alleys in hospital corridors on nightshift to alleviate the boredom. <br>
    <br>
    The much publicised Nightingale hospitals still remain empty of Conoravirus patients. <br>
    <br>
    What is this overwhelming you speak of?
    We enjoy our privileged position of remoteness while other areas are affected differently, but for how long?

    Link 1
    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...surge-12111689

    Sky News today
    Tracy Taylor, the CEO of Nottingham University Hospitals NHS Trust, said it had been a "difficult decision" to postpone some appointments, but added there are more than 200 patients with coronavirus in hospital in the city, and "everyday this is increasing by nearly another full ward of people."

    Link 2
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-patients.html
    First Nightingale REOPENS: Manchester to open mothballed unit in preparation for Tier 3 lockdown
    as hospitals in neighbouring Liverpool are already treating MORE Covid-19 patients than during first peak

    Link 3
    https://www.itv.com/news/2020-10-22/...demic-in-april
    Writing on Twitter, Dr Tristan Cope said: "Sadly we are now treating more patients in hospital with Covid-19 @LivHospitals than we did in April at the peak of the first wave and numbers continue to rise."

    So important that people in #liverpool and @LivCityRegion adhere to social distancing restrictions."

    Paul Brant, cabinet member for adult health and social care at Liverpool City Council, said intensive care capacity in the city was over 90% full, with Covid-19 patients making up an increasing proportion of patients.

    Link 4
    https://www.mylondon.news/news/healt...being-19131204
    London Covid: Number of people being admitted to London hospitals with coronavirus more than doubles in 20 days

    A leading expert has said more restrictions may be needed to stop the NHS being 'completely consumed'“

    I really want to emphasise that it is the over-60s that really worries us most because these are the people who become severely ill with Covid-19, they are more likely to be admitted to hospital, if they are admitted to hospital they stay in hospital for longer and sadly they are more difficult to save,” he said.

    He said that infections among younger people are now penetrating those older age groups.

    Link 5:
    https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/...id-19-19136796
    Surge in seriously unwell Covid-19 patients in Bradford leads to suspension of some hospital appointments

    Around 100 Covid-19 patients are in Bradford Royal Infirmary and some are seriously unwell


    Link 6
    https://www.lep.co.uk/health/coronav...-first-3011326
    Lancashire Post
    Of the 114 coronavirus patients currently occupying beds at RPH and Chorley Hospital, 14 are in critical care, filling half of the unit’s capacity.

    And with a number of the other ICU beds being taken up by non-Covid patients, there are worries the hospital’s high-dependency facilities are fast becoming stretched - something which may have an impact on elective surgery if availability of places becomes critical.

    One member of staff said: “At the moment we can cope. But right now we are still continuing with elective surgery and other types of work that occupy critical care beds.

    “But what could happen if Covid carries on getting worse is it could result in elective and non-urgent work being postponed. Hopefully that won’t happen.”

    But other medics at RPH say ICU has come under so much pressure at times during this second wave that it has had to overflow into a geriatric ward, reducing the number of ordinary beds available at the hospital for elderly non-Covid patients.


    Link 7
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...-b1203983.html
    Bradford
    Bradford Teaching Hospitals said it was being forced to stop non-urgent surgery and outpatient appointments for two weeks from Tuesday because of the numbers of severely ill Covid-19 patients.

    In statement the hospital said it had seen a spike in admissions in the last few days with 100 coronavirus patients now on the wards with 30 patients needing oxygen support – the highest number of any hospital in the northeast and Yorkshire region.

    The trust is the latest to announce cancellations, joining the University Hospitals of Birmingham, Nottingham University Hospitals and Plymouth Hospitals as well as those in Liverpool and Manchester where hundreds of Covid patients are being looked after.

    {I think this may be the same hospital as mentioned at link 5, but it gives a bit more detail on other hospitals}
    Had to edit fomatting, so that's all for now!
    Last edited by Neil Howie; 22-Oct-20 at 23:30. Reason: possible double example

  12. #472

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    Well, as my daughter was actually involved on the nursing side in London (and I described it previously) then I think I do know what it was like a lot better than you from what she told me. It makes me so angry when you write like you do- as Neil says, from your place of safety on Orkney- ignoring all the televised reports (and interviews with) from the hospitals of exhausted staff who were themselves made ill with the stress of it, if not the virus itself- and many did get the virus, my daughter included. You should be ashamed to denigrate NHS staff the way you consistently do on here but no, it's all just a really stupid, point scoring game with you.
    Post a verified link then about the so called 'bowling alleys'- let's all see it. It's easy though to say 'I heard this and that'- where did you hear it when you live in your ivory tower on Orkney?

  13. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Howie View Post
    Fails to understand that people are staying at home to protect other people not themselves...
    Bizarrely compares coronavirus to smoking.
    Has no plans to protect the sick or elderly, will happily throw them to the wolves.
    Worst of all can't see the impact on the NHS of an out-of-control coronavirus spread
    Out of interst Neil, and using the figures for England for August, solely on the grounds they are so readily available, if you propose to do much for the 23rd cause of death, what should we be doing for those who die from the 22 more common causes? If we fail to take the same actions for those, then by your definition, are we throwing cancer patients, stroke patients, et al, to the wolves as well?

  14. #474
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Howie View Post
    We enjoy our privileged position of remoteness while other areas are affected differently, but for how long?

    Link 1
    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...surge-12111689

    Sky News today
    Tracy Taylor, the CEO of Nottingham University Hospitals NHS Trust, said it had been a "difficult decision" to postpone some appointments, but added there are more than 200 patients with coronavirus in hospital in the city, and "everyday this is increasing by nearly another full ward of people."

    Link 2
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-patients.html
    First Nightingale REOPENS: Manchester to open mothballed unit in preparation for Tier 3 lockdown
    as hospitals in neighbouring Liverpool are already treating MORE Covid-19 patients than during first peak

    Link 3
    https://www.itv.com/news/2020-10-22/...demic-in-april
    Writing on Twitter, Dr Tristan Cope said: "Sadly we are now treating more patients in hospital with Covid-19 @LivHospitals than we did in April at the peak of the first wave and numbers continue to rise."

    So important that people in #liverpool and @LivCityRegion adhere to social distancing restrictions."

    Paul Brant, cabinet member for adult health and social care at Liverpool City Council, said intensive care capacity in the city was over 90% full, with Covid-19 patients making up an increasing proportion of patients.

    Link 4
    https://www.mylondon.news/news/healt...being-19131204
    London Covid: Number of people being admitted to London hospitals with coronavirus more than doubles in 20 days

    A leading expert has said more restrictions may be needed to stop the NHS being 'completely consumed'“

    I really want to emphasise that it is the over-60s that really worries us most because these are the people who become severely ill with Covid-19, they are more likely to be admitted to hospital, if they are admitted to hospital they stay in hospital for longer and sadly they are more difficult to save,” he said.

    He said that infections among younger people are now penetrating those older age groups.

    Link 5:
    https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/...id-19-19136796
    Surge in seriously unwell Covid-19 patients in Bradford leads to suspension of some hospital appointments

    Around 100 Covid-19 patients are in Bradford Royal Infirmary and some are seriously unwell


    Link 6
    https://www.lep.co.uk/health/coronav...-first-3011326
    Lancashire Post
    Of the 114 coronavirus patients currently occupying beds at RPH and Chorley Hospital, 14 are in critical care, filling half of the unit’s capacity.

    And with a number of the other ICU beds being taken up by non-Covid patients, there are worries the hospital’s high-dependency facilities are fast becoming stretched - something which may have an impact on elective surgery if availability of places becomes critical.

    One member of staff said: “At the moment we can cope. But right now we are still continuing with elective surgery and other types of work that occupy critical care beds.

    “But what could happen if Covid carries on getting worse is it could result in elective and non-urgent work being postponed. Hopefully that won’t happen.”

    But other medics at RPH say ICU has come under so much pressure at times during this second wave that it has had to overflow into a geriatric ward, reducing the number of ordinary beds available at the hospital for elderly non-Covid patients.


    Link 7
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...-b1203983.html
    Bradford
    Bradford Teaching Hospitals said it was being forced to stop non-urgent surgery and outpatient appointments for two weeks from Tuesday because of the numbers of severely ill Covid-19 patients.

    In statement the hospital said it had seen a spike in admissions in the last few days with 100 coronavirus patients now on the wards with 30 patients needing oxygen support – the highest number of any hospital in the northeast and Yorkshire region.

    The trust is the latest to announce cancellations, joining the University Hospitals of Birmingham, Nottingham University Hospitals and Plymouth Hospitals as well as those in Liverpool and Manchester where hundreds of Covid patients are being looked after.

    {I think this may be the same hospital as mentioned at link 5, but it gives a bit more detail on other hospitals}
    Had to edit fomatting, so that's all for now!
    I think perhaps, you may have missed Fulmars reference to the past tense when discussing the overwhelming of hospitals. So staying with the last few months to begin with. Of 16 or 17000 beds of capacity in the various pop up hospitals, I understand from wikipedia, that 54 convid patients were treated at London, and 100 at Manchester. All the others saw none. By my counting, that's a peak occupancy of 0.9%

    Turning to the present, I understand that one of the pop up hospitals has been placed on standby, but I don't think it has, as yet, received any patients.

  15. #475
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fulmar View Post
    Well, as my daughter was actually involved on the nursing side in London (and I described it previously) then I think I do know what it was like a lot better than you from what she told me. It makes me so angry when you write like you do- as Neil says, from your place of safety on Orkney- ignoring all the televised reports (and interviews with) from the hospitals of exhausted staff who were themselves made ill with the stress of it, if not the virus itself- and many did get the virus, my daughter included. You should be ashamed to denigrate NHS staff the way you consistently do on here but no, it's all just a really stupid, point scoring game with you.
    Post a verified link then about the so called 'bowling alleys'- let's all see it. It's easy though to say 'I heard this and that'- where did you hear it when you live in your ivory tower on Orkney?
    Hopefully this doesn't come as too much of a shock to you Fulmar, but Orcadians, and their family members, have a bit of a reputation of moving away for work, careers and family reasons, a significant proportion end up in care work, or working for the NHS. So it's not just Fulmarville that has connections to workers in care elsewhere.

    And hopefully, it's also not too much of shock to learn that these wandering Orcadians, like your daughter, also report home with their news and experiences.
    Last edited by orkneycadian; 23-Oct-20 at 15:27. Reason: Shocking predictive text errors!

  16. #476

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    Where is the link?

  17. #477
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    What are you expecting a link to? There's more ways of people communicating than using webpages you know.

  18. #478

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    I think all will know just what to make of this.

  19. #479
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    Ah, sorry, my mistake. I didn't realise we were meant to transcribe all communications with people and publish them on a website. I'll be more diligent in future.

    Now, I have been furiously Googling "Fulmar's daughter's account of hospital life in London during Conoravirus" but nothing is coming up. Could you post the link to these conversations please?

    Thanks very much.

  20. #480
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    In a worrying development, Conoravirus has moved up to be the 19th most common cause of death in England;

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...il.htmlhttp://


    England and Wales coronavirus fatalities rose in September for first time since April... but it's still only the NINETEENTH most common cause of death


    On the plus side, in Wales, it's dropped down to 24th place.

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