.Orger
Yes, Barnett is a very good deal for us, which is why some English politicians have tried to modify it.Originally Posted by orkneycadian
But which is better, Scotland in a hard right wing and relatively poorer Boris-Brexited UK, or an independent Scotland in the EU with all the EU support that entails, but without Barnett?
.Orger
Barnet is not a good deal for Scotland. It's an appalling deal. It comes nowhere near to reflecting Scotland's contribution to the overall (dis)UK economy - see above post). Barnet results in a pocket-money economy (Ruth Davidson's words, not mine) where the Scottish Government has very little, if any, influence over macro-economic policy.
And, if London generates so much wealth, why is that cause to give thanks to Joel Barnet? It is essentially a formula which legitimises our pocket-money economy - "that's all you getting and when it's gone it's gone". That is no way for a nation to have it's finances controlled. "You'll get what you are given and think yourselves grateful". We are not a colony yet we are treated like one. Our wealth and resources are systematically pillaged to fund the over-heated economy of the SE England. Even the idea that London generates ¼ of UK GDP is a disgrace. Why have successive Westminster governments allowed that tiny corner of these islands to amass most of the wealth? A more responsible Union would be one where the wealth, and opportunity to create it, were more evenly distributed. This Union has outlived any usefulness it ever had and is not serving Scotland well. It is high time we realised that we would be far better off running our own economy in an independent country. This article from Business For Scotland makes some interesting points:- https://www.businessforscotland.com/...nds-wealth-go/
.Orger
Your posts are getting worse by the day. You have no evident understanding of basic economics or economic terminology.
.Orger
But at least I see where you get all your nonsense from. The goon that wrote that article writes more untruths than you do. He evidently doesn’t understand anything either. Or is he just a liar trying to influence the gullible?
Last edited by aqua; 16-Nov-19 at 23:27.
.Orger
And yet you have no idea whatsoever what my qualifications are or what career I followed. It is, however, disheartening to note that, when faced with inconvenient truths, your first tactic is to spray insults around and rubbish perfectly legitimate sources. Too wee, too poor and too stupid; that's us Scots. The only peoples in the world incapable of running their own affairs. Everone else is capable but we should be grateful for small mercies and for the largesse of Westminster.
.Orger
Corky’s posts contain some sense and a few important points amongst the avalanche of bombastic rant and unmitigated garbage. Some of my more astute and well informed political associates think that Boris de Piffle would indeed suspend Holyrood if he thought we the Scottish People were getting a “bit out of hand”, and this is one of the reasons why I am seriously considering voting for the SNP and independence.
It’s a pity that the only pro-independence poster in this part of the forum is still posting the sort of populist nonsense and long-discredited garbage that lost them the 2014 referendum. A friend suggested that Corky is Alex Salmond in real life. I laughed incredulously at the time, but on second viewing, Alex’s bombastic defence of blatant lies is not so outrageously different from what we see on these pages.
Last edited by aqua; 16-Nov-19 at 16:57.
.Orger
Yes, I know a broad church often entails uncomfortable bedfellows and that sometimes you just have to close your eyes and think of Scotland. But right now is not one of those times.
Having said that, I suspect climbing into bed with Corky would be less worse than doing the same with Boris de Piffle or Jeremy Jackbottom, so December 12 is still on despite Corky.
Last edited by aqua; 16-Nov-19 at 23:57.
.Orger
I'd really love it if you would separate those of my points which you consider are "important" and those which you think are "...bombastic rant and unmitigated garbage.". Of course, I'd really like to see some evidence to back up your assertions on the latter. At least I have pointed readers in the direction of other sources. All you have done is add further to the list of unsubstantiated insults directed at me when you know absolutely nothing about me.
Sorry it took so long to respond but I had to lie down for half an hour to recover after reading your assertions as to my identity.
1K.Orger
Interesting how statistics from Eurostat can be interpreted in two completely opposite ways according to which argument is being supported. Particularly liked the assertion that the central belt of Scotland contributes the same as London and the South East of England because the GDP per capita is "the same". That may, or it may not, be true but I suspect it depends totally on which bits of the central belt, and which bits of London and the South East, you measure. It also dodges the fast ball of the population difference by conflating "per capita" and "contribution".
Anyhoo, it's not an argument that's going to get sorted any time soon. If Ms Sturgeon is serious about a vote for independence, she should ensure English voters get a vote in the referendum; she'd get the result she says she wants so fast her head would spin. Which is why it'll never happen..... It's the last thing she needs. With a successful vote for independence she loses her single issue political stage and becomes a minor pawn in the game of what happens next. A bit like Farage and The Brexit Party.
.Orger
I thought the English wanted us to stay with them.
1K.Orger
Interesting point, aqua. I think the English would vote for English independence and freedom from Scottish rule - which is the way it is in Westminster, and has been since Blair / Brown took office. Scottish-elected MPs hold the balance of power and prevent English-elected MPs from carrying through their business, as they've done for better than 10 years now. Scottish MPs can (and vociferously do) vote on English matters while English MPs have no say on Scottish matters. So, far from Scotland suffering under the English yoke of oppression, it's very much the other way round - which is another reason why Miss Krankie wants anything BUT independence, as she'd lose control of England.
Would the English vote for Scottish independence? The question doesn't arise. The real question is would the English vote to be independent of Scottish control? Well, they've just voted to be free of EU control....... though sadly, there's no way of delivering it. Why is that? Oh yes! Scotland controls the Westminster parliament! England would vote for independence in a heartbeat, given the chance, but the balance of power on whether the English get a referendum is held by the SNP and similar bunches of inept, corrupt, self-satisfied, perverse politicians of all nationalities and political stripes.
Last edited by j4bberw0ck; 17-Nov-19 at 15:39. Reason: clarity
.Orger
Wow, trolling par excellence from j4bberw0ck. At least, I think it is trolling. That seems the only reasonable explanation for that load of tripe. The notion that someone could write all that down, in a public place, and imagine that anyone would be fooled by it is so remote that I am prepared to accept that j4bberw0ck is just having fun trolling. Sunday's can be a bit boring, can't they?
1K.Orger
Corky! Trolling! Moi? And you a drama queen who had to lie down for half an hour after someone said something you didn't like!
Scotland has 59 MPs in Westmonster and they more than hold the balance of power. That's not trolling, that's a fact. Were it otherwise, Theresa May wouldn't have had to bung 12 deeply unlovely DUP blackmailers a billion quid to get them to support her. I'm not trolling, dear boy (?), I'm telling you the truth - and it's part of the brainwashing of the Scots by the SNP that they can't see the power they have. The West Lothian Question, which politicians of all stripes refused to deal with despite the best efforts of Tam Dalyell - one of the honourable, honest, old and principled school of Labour politicians - has never been resolved and now we're seeing the results; 59 MPs voted in from another country (the SNP keep insisting Scotland is another country), controlling the business of English representatives in Parliament. If you think thst's trolling, Corky, you're wrong.
England is quite unjustifiably under the cosh. Scottish Parliamentarians cost English voters Brexit on any reasonable terms - the will of the people has been subverted by the representatives of a country (as the SNP describes it) which wishes to be a foreign power. Terribly simple. If the English want independence, they should have it - and the consequences. If the Scots want independence, they too should have it - and the consequences.
.Orger
Well j4bberw0ck, I was trying to be kind and give you the benefit of the doubt. If you insist that you stand by all of what you said in your last two posts then I'm afraid I have no choice but to call for the people in white coats. They will lead you gently by the arm to the sunlight uplands of this fantasy world you have concocted where you can spend your time trying to convince everyone that the Pope is a Proddy and that bears prefer Armitage Shanks to the woods.
1K.Orger
How very kind of you, Corky. I can see you're a thoughtful person, but really you've presented nothing but "this is my view and I'm right!". I've presented a rationale for the subjugation of the UK Parliament to Scottish rule, and you think it's ridiculous. That's OK; I'm not really bothered either way because one gets used to SNP bombast, but when it comes to determining who tends to agree with me I can highlight Tam Dalyell https://www.theguardian.com/politics...thian-question - an old article missing a few more recent add-ons - and more importantly, Sir Roger Scruton, a true 21st century philosopher who agrees with the Scottish view on independence, but adds in the need for English independence so that Scotland and England can have a mature and respectful alliance instead of a bunch of whinging victims droning on. He continues the theme on the BBC (which isn't usually a recommendation but will do this time).
If it wants it, Corky, Scotland should have its independence, and God bless. Don't let the door bang you on the arse on the way out. It would be anti-democratic to deny it; as anti-democratic, that is, as a group of 59 MPs hijacking the business of the UK parliament because they effectively get two votes on every issue while everyone else gets one. England, too, should have independence if it wants it. Independence from being blamed for everything. You'd think the Act of Union was an invasion, rather than a rescue mission.
Bring on the vote!
.Orger
"I've presented a rationale for the subjugation of the UK Parliament to Scottish rule". Where was it? I don't recall seeing it in any of the posts you have written.
As for the West Lothian question we all know there is a perfectly simple solution:- Scottish (or English) independence.
Of course, Scotland (or any other country/region) should have it's independence if it wants it. The problem is Scotland keeps telling Westminster what it wants by electing filthy separatist MPs/MSPs. Westminster just ignores them which is a pretty neat trick for a government that is under the cosh and subject to Scottish control.
As for your assertion that 59 Scottish MPs hijack the business of the house then I really do, genuinely want to see some evidence of this. You have not provided any.
Finally, congratulations. You've won a watch!! You are the 100th person whom I have heard cite the Darien Scheme as a reason for us being incapable of running our own affairs.
1K.Orger
That's possibly because you're having difficulty with the word "rationale", which is simply an outline explanation of the reason for a belief or - in this case - a political position. The existence of 59 Scottish MPs prepared and able to vote against a Government on matters to do with England, in order to pursue their own Scottish agenda, is a rationale for change.
Ah!.........acceptance of English independence! In reality, though, there's a very simple and instant answer which doesn't involve the upheaval; it's simply to bar Scottish MPs from taking part in, or voting on, any business which doesn't relate to Scotland. But that won't happen...... all those fingers poised over the OUTRAGE!!! button
I don't subscribe to the view that Scottish MPs are filthy separatists. But being predominantly SNP they are largely a single-issue group; if independence becomes a reality, they lose their relevance and just become voices on the sideline while the big boys sort out What Happens Next.
Leaving aside the occasions when Miss Krankie has hinted that she can prop up a Corbyn minority in exchange for <<please see attached booklet>>, you correctly note that I said "assertion". That is my assertion. Live with it
Oh, look! He does sarcasm, too! I said no such thing but there's clearly huge sensitivity on the issue. You might have done better / sounded smarter to point out that the Act of Union actually ran both ways and was useful for both countries, which is why it was a Union, not a takeover. Darien was certainly, er, unfortunate and to some eyes, slightly puzzling - one might have thought a region possessed of its own vast, unusable, areas of bogs and voracious insects would have avoided another, thousands of miles away - but hey, we all make mistakes and empire-building is always a bit tricky.
.Orger
You have either conveniently ignored or were unaware of the fact that any rationale has to be based upon sound logic or reason. Simply presenting a series of crack-pot beliefs and claiming they are rational is not sufficient. Evidence, evidence, evidence otherwise it is just trolling.
I also find it difficult to take seriously anyone who uses derogatory language to describe our First Minister. Your use of such language does you no credit whatsoever. You really should be ashamed of yourself for helping foster an environment where people think it is acceptable to demean capable and intelligent women who have risen to positions of public prominence.
1K.Orger
OK, Corky, we're done. You always sense the end is close when the other party draws itself up to his / her / its full magisterial 4 foot 6, switches pomposity to the max, and starts lecturing. Life was much more fun in here in 2008....................... Beannachd an-drąsta!
.Orger
Mission accomplished!OK, Corky, we're done. You always sense the end is close when the other party draws itself up to his / her / its full magisterial 4 foot 6, switches pomposity to the max, and starts lecturing. Life was much more fun in here in 2008
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