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Thread: Boris and the democratic deficit

  1. #1

    Default Boris and the democratic deficit

    Today in Moray, Boris Johnston said that even if voters in Scotland elect a majority of SNP MPs in the GE or get another pro-Indy majority at the next Holyrood Election he will deny any request for Indyref II.

    There you have it, folks. Complete and utter disregard for the wishes of the Scottish electorate. As I have said before, if we don't take decisions for ourselves Boris Johnston will take them for us and we will not like what he decides especially if he allows US access to the NHS.

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  2. #2

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    let's wait and see how many votes in total are cast for the SNP, doesn't matter how many seats they take.

    Example for one seat (extreme example to demonstrate my point)

    SNP 35,000 votes
    Cons 34999
    Lab 34999
    Greens32000
    Lib Dems 32000

    In this situation the SNP take the seat but only represent about 20.7% of the voters in that seat. Multiply this over the 59 seats, the SNP might claim to represent Scotland as they have all the MP's, but they only actually represent one in five, so can hardly make that claim.

    Let's wait and see what happens in the election before worrying about something that might or might not happen.

    Ps I thought the Scottish NHS was controlled by Holyrood...I may be wrong as that's not my area of expertise

  3. #3

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    Just found this...might set your mind at rest re; the NHS https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/new...-us-trade-deal

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goodfellers View Post
    let's wait and see how many votes in total are cast for the SNP, doesn't matter how many seats they take.

    Example for one seat (extreme example to demonstrate my point)

    SNP 35,000 votes
    Cons 34999
    Lab 34999
    Greens32000
    Lib Dems 32000

    In this situation the SNP take the seat but only represent about 20.7% of the voters in that seat. Multiply this over the 59 seats, the SNP might claim to represent Scotland as they have all the MP's, but they only actually represent one in five, so can hardly make that claim.

    Let's wait and see what happens in the election before worrying about something that might or might not happen.

    Ps I thought the Scottish NHS was controlled by Holyrood...I may be wrong as that's not my area of expertise
    Well, this is the electoral system Westminster imposes upon Scotland. Once more we are having to do what Westminster demands. It is a reserved matter so if you are not happy with it take it up with your pals down the road.

    On the NHS you are correct (a rarity these days) that it is run by Holyrood. However, since the UK is about to fall off the cliff edge that is Brexit and will need to negotiate trade deals it is clear that any such deal with the US will have to include their drug companies having access to the NHS throughout the UK. Boris Johnston's attempts to play down this fact must be seen within the context of the current election campaign. He doesn't want to scare people and thus lose votes by giving us any indication of what life in post-Brexit Britain may be like.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goodfellers View Post
    Just found this...might set your mind at rest re; the NHS https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/new...-us-trade-deal
    And this is what we stand to lose https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/res...s-nhs#contents

  6. #6

    Default

    Not sure what that article from July 17 has to do with your fear of Boris 'selling off' the NHS?

    As for the voting system, I can fully accept why no UK government would consider giving Scotland the power to hold another referendum based on my senario...it would have nothing to do with how many MP's you have, but the level of support for independance, and in my senario that would be low. I'm sure Nicola said something similar not so long ago....have not got time to trawl the net as off out in a minute. I'll look tomorrow.

  7. #7
    Join Date
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    I can't believe anything Boris Johnson says; time after time he has shown himself to be a liar. He did say that he'd rather be dead in a ditch than ask for a Brexit extension, his ditch awaits....
    'We are more alike, my friends, than we are unalike.'
    Maya Angelou

  8. #8

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    At the moment, polls indicate that support for Independence as opposed to the status quo is 50:50. So, if another independence vote next year comes out around that, what then and how democratic will it actually be to instigate a change based on what may be just a handful of votes?

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fulmar View Post
    At the moment, polls indicate that support for Independence as opposed to the status quo is 50:50. So, if another independence vote next year comes out around that, what then and how democratic will it actually be to instigate a change based on what may be just a handful of votes?
    This is the electoral system we have. Political decisions in this country (and many others) are decided by FPTP. The side with the largest number of votes wins (except when it happens in the House of Commons and one Tory MP (Sec of State for Scotland) can deny the wishes of the 58 others. How democratic is that :- 1 against 58 yet the 1 wins (as happened several times after the 2015 election)). The House of Commons aside this is the system we have; those are the rules of the game and we all have to abide by them.

    Hypothetically, consider an election where the candidate I support loses by only one vote to the candidate you support. I would just have to live with that. I imagine you would be keen to see the result stand (as would I if the situation were reversed).

    “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.” (W. Churchill, attr).

  10. #10

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    I have not said which candidate I support- he or she might be the same as yours! It was actually a neutral question in a sense. I think that we should have PR and that would be more democratic in my view.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fulmar View Post
    I have not said which candidate I support- he or she might be the same as yours! It was actually a neutral question in a sense. I think that we should have PR and that would be more democratic in my view.
    I can fully understand your wish for some form of PR. Indeed, I voted for it during the referendum. However, one problem it can bring is small parties gaining influence beyond what would be reasonable given their vote share. I'm thinking of situations where a small party holds the balance of power and effectively holds the larger parties to ransom until it extracts the concessions it wants from one of them. That is equally undemocratic in my view. No system is perfect.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corky Smeek View Post
    Today in Moray, Boris Johnston said that even if voters in Scotland elect a majority of SNP MPs in the GE or get another pro-Indy majority at the next Holyrood Election he will deny any request for Indyref II.

    There you have it, folks. Complete and utter disregard for the wishes of the Scottish electorate.
    In the run up to the Scexit referendum in 2014, the SNP repeatedly said that Scexit, and voting for your favoured political party were 2 separate matters. Presumably to try and garner Scexit votes from voters not normally aligned with the SNP.

    Using their logic from 2013 / 2014, then any votes and seats that the SNP win in December having nothing whatsoever to do with Scexit.

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