What EVEL means for Jo Swinson and why you shouldn't waste your vote on the Lib Dems

[Corky Smeek]

You gotta love a trier. Jo Swinson is telling anyone who will listen (and even those who won't) that she is going to be the next Prime Minister of GB & NI. Well, she should have been more careful about what she wished for. You see, JS is an ardent Unionist. If you believe her she fought tooth and nail during Indyref I to maintain Scotland's place in the Union. But little did she know that she has been the architect of her own (soon to be) stifled ambition.

Whilst they were still storing away the ballot boxes after Indyref I David Cameron was announcing that it was high time those uppity Scots were prevented from voting on matters English. And thus was English Votes for English Laws (EVEL) born.

There are a number of practical upshots from the introduction of EVEL. Perhaps the most important, as least for the naively optimistic JS, is that in effect it means she can never be PM, even in the unlikely event the Lib Dems won. It is constitutionally indefensible for a PM not to be able to cast a vote in support of her/his own government's legislative programme. In other words EVEL means JS would be unable to vote on purely English legislation even if she were PM because she would be MP for a Scottish constituency. You cannot have a situation where the PM is banned from voting on legislation s/he proposed. So, sorry Jo but it ain't gonna happen unless you seek election in a constituency south of the Tweed.

And this has implications far beyond JS's faltering ambitions. EVEL effectively means that the UK will never again have a PM who represents a Scottish constituency. Furthermore, it means neither of the two parties (sorry JS the LDs don't count) who have a chance of forming a government will ever elect an MP from a Scottish constituency as party leader for the reasons outlined above.

So there we have it. Those ardent Unionist Lib Dems who campaigned so hard to keep the Union intact have further shafted Scotland by helping ensure that the MPs we elect will have an even more diminished role in shaping how our lives are governed. We will, for ever more, be governed by PMs from outwith Scotland who couldn't care less about us.

Remember folks, if we don't take our own decisions someone else (BoJo) will take them for us.

[Goodfellers]

You clearly have 'woken up' on this forum....Now an 'orger', no longer a New Member!

You have joined a select few who love to rant/discuss on here, but I'm sad to say neither you or I will ever change anyone's views. I doubt anyone has ever been persuaded to change their political allegiance by a chat room post. This place is good for getting things off your chest, but that's about it.

I know that wont stop you posting your version of events, and likewise there are others (me included) who will always try to counter anything you say....that's politics for you!

[Goodfellers]

I love the way SNP supporters harp on about the 'great' things they have acheived. Let's look at free university places. Did you know that the Conservative party were against tuition fees?

The Uk government won the bill by a slight majority only because Scottish MP's voted to introduce fees in ENGLAND yet abolished fees in Scotland!!!!.

So, you tell me why English MP's shouldn't vote on matters that only affect England?

Could you give some examples of where you feel aggrieved that EVEL has affected you directly?

BTW, Jo Swinson was on TV last night saying she did not really expect to be PM, but feels that she could hold the balance of power in a hung parliament.

[dozy]

Scotland doesn't Hate England ,if fact I don't know a country or people that Scotland would or should hate .Scotland HATES bullies and oppression , Work it out . Why do the bullies always make out they are the victims ,then go on to use the Hate , Race card or " it wasn't me but a bid bad boy that ran away " card.
Just leave Scotland to get on with its own business in a free and independent country . It's far better to be good close friends than a abused and bullied partner in a long lost shotgun wedding 300years out of date. Respect.

[Goodfellers]

So, explain why the Scottish MP's voted to make English students pay tuition fees, yet keep Scottish University free?

[Corky Smeek]

[QUOTE=The government won the bill by a slight majority only because the SNP voted to introduce fees in ENGLAND yet abolished fees in Scotland!!!!. To me that shows a true hatred of the English....a real racist party if ever there was one.

So, you tell me why English MP's shouldn't vote on matters that only affect England?.[/QUOTE]

I'm surprised you have any more straws left to clutch. For nigh on 300 years MPs from outwith Scotland voted on purely Scottish matters and often voted contrary to the wishes of the majority of our MPs and the people who live here. We are sick of it. But, I won't stoop to your depths and accuse anyone or any party of racism to score cheap points. Those kinds of argument belong in the gutter. Something else you should be ashamed of perhaps. The list is growing longer isn't it ? - see related threads.

On the issue of English MPs voting on only English matters there are a few of points worth making. This problem only arose, when all of a sudden, the parliamentry arithmetic changed and the Tories realised that a substantial body of SNP MPs could sway votes in parliament. They didn't give a sh*t when the SNP only had a handful of seats and the Tories knew they could rely on their Unionist buddies in the Lib Dems and Labour Party to get votes passed. They used the "how can this be democratic" argument to justify EVEL conveniently forgetting the preceeding 300 years where the democratic defecit they were now wailing about worked the other way round and it was Scotland that was affected. So, if non-Scottish MPs were allowed to vote in Scottish-only matters why are Scottish MPs now forbidden to vote on English Laws? I thought your argument was we were all one United Kingdom. All MPs should be able to vote on all laws if you follow that argument. The "one UK" argument is also used to justify the Brexit vote and taking Scotland out of the EU against her will. According to the oft-repeated manta, "we voted as one UK". As always, you want it both ways - "one UK" when it suits you but making sure no nasty Scot Nats can vote on English matters when it doesn't.

One final point. I have no objections, in principle, to EVEL. My objections relate to how it has been enacted and the unfairness it causes. I do, however, have a solution that gets over all of the obstacles:- England declares its independence from the UK and bu**ers off back to the halcyon days of the 1950s and leaves the rest of us Celtic nations to get on with our own lives. PS. Cornwall, you're invited to join us if you wish.

[Goodfellers]

Great rant......answer the question....why did Scottish mp's vote to make English students pay university fees, spite? If you are a typical SNP supporter, then that's probably the answer reading that rant.

The only other explanation, someone was worried that the brightest of Scottish students would keep going to English universities and had a chance to put a financial obsticle in the way to make them think twice?

[Goodfellers]

Oh, I forgot to ask....how heavy is that massive chip on your shoulder?

[Corky Smeek]

Great rant......answer the question....why did SNP mp's vote to make English students pay university fees, spite? If you are a typical SNP supporter, then that's probably the answer reading that rant.

The only other explanation, SNP worried that the brightest of Scottish students would keep going to English universities and had a chance to put a financial obsticle in the way to make them think twice?

Happy to oblige if you will tell me which vote you are referring to and when it took place.

[Goodfellers]

Today is NOT a good day...further proper research clarifies it was Scotish MP's who voted through tuition fees for England....but they were Scottish Labour MP's...that was why EVEL came about. So, I have to take back my claims about it being the SNP. Apologies.....that hurt.

[Goodfellers]

A teacher asked her class how many of them were Nicola Sturgeon fans.

Not really knowing what a Nicola Sturgeon fan is, but wanting to be liked by the teacher, all the kids raised their hands . . . except for Little Johnny.

The teacher asked Little Johnny why he has decided to be different . .again.

Little Johnny replied, "Because I'm not a Nicola Sturgeon fan."

The teacher asked, "Why aren't you a Nicola Sturgeon fan?"

Johnny replied, "Because I'm a Conservative."

The teacher asked him why he's a Conservative.

Little Johnny answered, "Well, my Mum's a Conservative and my Dad's a Conservative, so I'm a Conservative."

Annoyed by this answer, the teacher asked, "If your Mum was a moron and your Dad was an idiot, what would that make you?"

Little Johnny replied,

"A Nicola Sturgeon fan."

[Corky Smeek]

If I were you I would adhere to the old adage of "when you're in a hole, stop digging.".

[Corky Smeek]

The government won the bill by a slight majority only because the SNP voted to introduce fees in ENGLAND yet abolished fees in Scotland!!!!. To me that shows a true hatred of the English....a real racist party if ever there was one.

Just as a follow-up I know you have apologised in a general way but I really think you need to withdraw this rather nasty and unfounded remark.

[dozy]

A teacher asked her class how many of them were Nicola Sturgeon fans.

Not really knowing what a Nicola Sturgeon fan is, but wanting to be liked by the teacher, all the kids raised their hands . . . except for Little Johnny.

The teacher asked Little Johnny why he has decided to be different . .again.

Little Johnny replied, "Because I'm not a Nicola Sturgeon fan."

The teacher asked, "Why aren't you a Nicola Sturgeon fan?"

Johnny replied, "Because I'm a Conservative."

The teacher asked him why he's a Conservative.

Little Johnny answered, "Well, my Mum's a Conservative and my Dad's a Conservative, so I'm a Conservative."

Annoyed by this answer, the teacher asked, "If your Mum was a moron and your Dad was an idiot, what would that make you?"

Little Johnny replied,

"A Nicola Sturgeon fan."

your wrong " it would still make them Tories" just take one look at the Boris. Some are as stupid as they look . The pied piper of disaster with all his rats following on behind.

[Goodfellers]

Now altered.

[Fulmar]

A plea for the 'respect' on here that all who post often complain is not seen enough in politics. Can we please just respect the views of those who have different allegiances to our own without using words like 'stupid' all the time to describe them.
I think that the worst threat to democracy in general (and alongside of climate change) is the hatred and division now so much to the fore throughout the UK, in politics and outside of it. It is so sad and sickening. We face the greatest threat to our survival ever- we need to pull together, now more than ever.

[Corky Smeek]

A plea for the 'respect' on here that all who post often complain is not seen enough in politics. Can we please just respect the views of those who have different allegiances to our own without using words like 'stupid' all the time to describe them.
I think that the worst threat to democracy in general (and alongside of climate change) is the hatred and division now so much to the fore throughout the UK, in politics and outside of it. It is so sad and sickening. We face the greatest threat to our survival ever- we need to pull together, now more than ever.

So far as your plea for respect is concerned I couldn't agree more. In the past too many who have posted on here have used utterly disrespectful language and imagery when referring to prominent politicians such as the First Minister. Those who do this are helping create a climate where our politicians are becoming more and more vulnerable to verbal and even physical attack. We may not always like what our politicians say but we have to allow them to say it free from intimidation.

So far as your second point goes, the problem is that any hatred and division is always the fault of the other side. As a consequence any attempt to get us to pull together is inevitably doomed to failure. Politicians are forever urging us to "unite"; to "come together"; to "join forces" against this, that or the other perceived evil. However, it comes across as "We must pull together but only in the way that I determine, not the way you might want which is bad and will only make the divisions worse". And so, the merry-go-round of "hatred and division" goes on spinning.

Sorry about the note of pessimism to start the day.

[Goodfellers]

Most non SNP supporters see it as the SNP causing all the hatred and tension.

The 'losing' side are always the ones causing problems, same is happening over Brexit, the remainers try ever trick in the book to get result overturned. The SNP are doing the same, not accepting the once in a generation vote, but trying to find any excuse to hold Indy2. If they lose that, then they will keep on looking for reasons to hold Indy3,4,5 and so on.

Let's look at the history of the SNP. Their support was LESS than 1% until the General Election of 1964 when it rose to 2.4%, coincidentally just when North sea exploration for gas was looking promising.

September 1965, wells hit good flow of gas, Early 1966 large gas finds at Leman Bank and Hewitt field. General election 1966 SNP support rises to 5%

The rest is history "the gas/oil is our" shouts the spoilt child.

The three other countries of the UK had been happy to support Scotland for the previous 250 years without uttering a word against Scotland.

The moment that Scotland (The SNP) discover tax cash, it's to hell with the rest of the UK....we are not sharing OUR oil/gas revenue with you, despite the fact you have supported us when we had nothing.

This is my personal view of the SNP although I know it's a view shared by many.

If no oil/gas had been found, SNP support would still be less than 1%.

Begs the question, what happens when oil extraction is banned or runs out. There is talk of massive worldwide reductions in oil extraction, what happens then? Scotland doesn't have much else to fund the massive deficit we run up each year. What with Holyrood taking control of the Social security (part of) budget, the deficit will only grow as the SNP throw money at anyone who asks for it.

[Corky Smeek]

Now altered.

Thank you.

[Corky Smeek]

Begs the question, what happens when oil extraction is banned or runs out. There is talk of massive worldwide reductions in oil extraction, what happens then? Scotland doesn't have much else to fund the massive deficit we run up each year. What with Holyrood taking control of the Social security (part of) budget, the deficit will only grow as the SNP throw money at anyone who asks for it.

Well, the respect agenda lasted almost quarter of an hour. Well done.

Do you realise that the Scottish Government is expressly prohibited from running a budget deficit? It was a major provision in the Scotland Act which formed the Scottish Assembly (now Parliament). The Scottish Government does not have a budget deficit. It is not allowed by Westminster to have a budget deficit. Westminster thinks we are too wee; too poor and too stupid to be trusted with maintaining a budget deficit.

Any deficit which is ever mentioned in the context of Scotland is the deficit which Westminster apportions to Scotland as part of the deficit it has racked up. It is also massively disproportionate given the size and population of Scotland.