Hydrogen cars

[Stargazer]

It's a pity the government is focussing on EV cars. If there was more demand for hydrogen fuel the price would tumble to at least compete with petrol and possibly electric as a fuel. Also, increased supply/demand for fuel cells would drop the price. Both these factors would help drive vehicle price and running cost to be competitive with conventional or EV.

Also the infrastructure for mass liquid fuel transport is in place. Is installing a hydrogen pump similar to installing an EV charging point? Fewer hydrogen pumps would be needed compared to charging points.

[j4bberw0ck]

Stargazer, do you envisage hydrogen being stored and transported as a gas or a liquid?

[aqua]

The thought of driving behind a tanker loaded with pressurised hydrogen gas fills me with dread. Somehow liquid hydrogen sounds less dangerous, even if it isn’t in reality!

Maybe we’ll find a better, more environmentally friendly, technology for batteries in the near future. One can hope...

[j4bberw0ck]

I seriously doubt you'll ever find yourself behind a tanker of liquid hydrogen. Hydrogen cannot be liquefied by pressure unless its temperature is 33 deg K or lower (in old money about -240 deg C). And as I pointed out above, it leaks out of everything. It cannot be stored efficiently. Liquid hydrogen is plenty dangerous, but mainly because of its temperature; and the energy involved in liquifying and keeping it liquid is immense. Complete non-starter as a mass-market fuel.

[aqua]

I know it has to be colder than hell to liquefy the stuff, but liquefaction should cure some of the problem with leakage!

[j4bberw0ck]

And as we approach the (hopefully slight) possibility that Agent Cob may be able to form a government (if that's quite the word I'm looking for) that will nationalise its way back to the glory days of the 1950s, 60s and 70s, we remember the good old standby for the leaky cooling system on BL cars; crack a raw egg into the coolant and let the engine tick over for half an hour. I wonder if there's an equivalent for hydrogen?

[aqua]

I can’t think of a hydrogen equivalent of the poached egg trick. Anyone?

[richardj]

Not sure if this has been mentioned earlier - I heard on Radio 4 a few days ago about a new storage technology for hydrogen - early days yet although it sounds potentially a game changer for storing and use of hydrogen in vehicles. The link is on the BBC website https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-52328786 - it involves using a new sponge like metal technology that can store masses of hydrogen in a relative small area. It sounds safer than the current storage systems.

Like others on this forum I personally think electric cars are a dead end (too expensive, not really environmentally friendly, and could not replace the current number of vehicles used worldwide or in the UK) - unless we want to cosy up to China for the next 60 years as they control access to many of the chemicals required to make electric vehicles storage batteries, plus the terrible conditions of mainly very young children used to mine the metals required, in some of the African countries.

[Goodfellers]

Not sure if this has been mentioned earlier - I heard on Radio 4 a few days ago about a new storage technology for hydrogen - early days yet although it sounds potentially a game changer for storing and use of hydrogen in vehicles. The link is on the BBC website https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-52328786 - it involves using a new sponge like metal technology that can store masses of hydrogen in a relative small area. It sounds safer than the current storage systems.

Like others on this forum I personally think electric cars are a dead end (too expensive, not really environmentally friendly, and could not replace the current number of vehicles used worldwide or in the UK) - unless we want to cosy up to China for the next 60 years as they control access to many of the chemicals required to make electric vehicles storage batteries, plus the terrible conditions of mainly very young children used to mine the metals required, in some of the African countries.

The 'sponge' story caught my attention a few days ago (post 32). Lets hope something practical comes from it. I imagine we could produce enough hydrogen up here with all our excess wind power.

I hear Trump wants to go mining on the moon for the rare earth (moon?) minerals used in battery technology as he isn't keen on the Chinese controlling the supply. How that will be cost efficient is beyond my comprehension! At least there would be no forced child labour.

[Goodfellers]

With the price of oil now at historic lows, I think we will all be driving petrol/diesel cars for a lot longer, as the oil companies now say they don't have the cash to invest in cleaner technology! Plus if petrol is under a £1 litre, who is going to buy a new 'cleaner' car?

[The Horseman]

You are correct.....
They have been playing with Hydrogen for many years! It is the cost that is prohibitive.
Our Petrol (gasoline) is presently approx 70 cents....35p...... its all going on the back burner again.
The reason they are trying it again, is that European Companies are getting Grants from the Government (our money), and the other Companies that are coming forward with Private Funds, are really obtaining more Govt Grants or Tax breaks....(Our money)!
It’s a Series of ‘Smoke and Mirrors‘.