Separatist hypocrisy

[Gronnuck]

Just a minorly inconvenient fact that 533 of the Westminster MPs are elected by (mainly) English voters living in England. Its those MPs who form the Government, the Cabinet and are most able to shape the policies. That makes it rather hard to hate the politicians without implicating the electorate that put them there.

Strange isn't it that if Scotland is heavily subsidised by England and our people are hated as whingeing Jocks, not one of those English MPs has raised the question of separation.....

[Goodfellers]

That's because most English MP's care about the union and are quite compasionate. Why 'kick out' a member country just because it costs slightly more per head?

Before someone says 'English MP's only want us for our oil tax'....remember the several hundred years before we had oil, there was no call to 'throw' Scotland out....or any call from Scotland to be independant.

I still have not seen any proof that the English consider us 'whinging jocks'. Some links to articles would be good. Serious articles please, not comedy sketch links. Thanks.

[orkneycadian]

Before someone says 'English MP's only want us for our oil tax'....remember the several hundred years before we had oil, there was no call to 'throw' Scotland out....or any call from Scotland to be independant.

Is that the same oil that mainly lies off Orkney and Shetland, but yet the central belters claim is theirs? Have you ever seen an oil rig on Sauchiehall Street or Princes Street? Have you seen how many of them are in Scapa Flow these days?

[Shabbychic]

That's because most English MP's care about the union and are quite compasionate. Why 'kick out' a member country just because it costs slightly more per head?

Before someone says 'English MP's only want us for our oil tax'....remember the several hundred years before we had oil, there was no call to 'throw' Scotland out....or any call from Scotland to be independant.

I still have not seen any proof that the English consider us 'whinging jocks'. Some links to articles would be good. Serious articles please, not comedy sketch links. Thanks.

There are so many of your posts, that are really quite incredible. (sterilisation and population management and bringing back a modern version of the Victorian workhouse, for example) Your views at times are totally outlandish. Now there are Westminster MPs who are mostly compassionate, no proof we are classed as whinging Jocks, and the daddy of them all in this particular post.....nobody ever wanted Scottish Independence before we found oil. (tell that to The Bruce and Wallace, and all those who fought and died for that very reason throughout the centuries)


As far as only wanting Scotland for our oil, (which they do want actually.....the English edition of the Tory Telegraph) you appear to be one of those with the archaic view that all Scotland has to offer is oil, shortbread and the Loch Ness Monster. Scotland's wealth is so much more than that, and Westminster knows it even if you don't. You probably still believe we are subsidised by England.


Thing is, your mind is totally made up, because you know best, and no matter what argument is put forward, you are right. You don't really want links to any articles for enlightenment, just links to ridicule the sources. As I stated elsewhere, go to any unionist rag, pick any article about the SNP or Scottish Independence, read the article and then read the comments from the average punters who read these papers. You'll find much worse than "whinging Jocks". If you were really that interested you would google these things yourself anyway.


Tell you something else, I at least have principles, and have never ever voted for a political Party I do not support, for tactical purposes. I'm sure the wee Tory candidate who stood, up here at the recent election, was well chuffed with that, and Jamie Stone must be so proud.

[Fulmar]

And there is plenty of blatant, racist, anti-English sentiment expressed in Scotland as well- as described in last Friday's 'Groat! Sadly this goes on everywhere and against many or any identifiable group of people that the perpetrators do not like and are ready to blame. It needs to be challenged when it rears it's ugly head wherever and whenever.

[Goodfellers]

Shabbychic...

Let's look at 'The daddy of them all'...……………..Let's look at SNP votes over the last hundred years. I wonder why there was a surge in SNP votes about the time gas then oil was discovered? A mere coincidence?

1935 25,652
1945 30,595
1950 9,708
1951 7,299
1955 12,112
1959 21,738
1964 64,044
1966 128,474
1970 306,802
1974 633,180
1974 839,617
1979 504,259
1983 331,975
1987 416,473
1992 629,564
1997 621,550
2001 464,314
2005 412,267
2010 491,386
2015 1,454,463 (Took most of the Labour vote)
2017 977,569
2019 1,242,380

I think you will find that about 10% of the electorate voted tactically. It's a sensible thing to do. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-

Even your beloved leader encouraged it https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...rity-1-5057779

I'm not ashamed or embarrassed about my other statements. If every benifit/disability claim was genuine, then there would be no need to think about 'modern workhouse'. But we all know so0 many claims are fraudulent, if there was no cash involved, these people wouldn't claim. Simple really.

Top scientists now agree that population is the biggest threat to the planet, so population control is worth thinking about. Come up with a good workable solution and I'll listen. But you wont. You just like to belittle anyone that thinks too 'right wing' for your tastes. Sour grapes because my tactical vote made a difference maybe?

[Goodfellers]

Must ask shabbychic....what's your relationship with Corky/Maggie/Odd?

I only ask, as when you look at the pattern of posting, all of you seem to be active/inactive in quite a telling pattern. One account is very active, then goes quiet and so on. Could just be my suspicious mind, but very coincidental, especially as you all seem to have the same views on just about everything.

Why not just stick to one user name?

[Shabbychic]

Must ask shabbychic....what's your relationship with Corky/Maggie/Odd?

I only ask, as when you look at the pattern of posting, all of you seem to be active/inactive in quite a telling pattern. One account is very active, then goes quiet and so on. Could just be my suspicious mind, but very coincidental, especially as you all seem to have the same views on just about everything.

Why not just stick to one user name?

I'm afraid you have a very active imagination. I have no idea who Corky/Maggie/Odd is or are. In fact I am quite insulted by your insinuation. You check with the moderator on here, and get them to run a check on my IP address. Then I expect an apology. Why on earth would I want to have numerous accounts? Do I really sound like somebody who has to hide behind different identities? Get real!!

[Goodfellers]

You have been dormant for quite a while as had ODD, now Corky/Maggie stop posting you start up, spouting the same rubbish they did. Must just be a coincidence. You will not get an apology, as this forum is annonymous, you cannot prove you do not have a connection. I admit the evidence is circumstantial, but never the less, all a bit too suspicious for my liking.

[Goodfellers]

I personally think everyone should have to use something like Government Gateway ID to create any online username. Admin would then know exactly who you were and you could only have one ID. It would make trolling redundant overnight.

[Shabbychic]

Shabbychic...

Let's look at 'The daddy of them all'...……………..Let's look at SNP votes over the last hundred years. I wonder why there was a surge in SNP votes about the time gas then oil was discovered? A mere coincidence?


I think you will find that about 10% of the electorate voted tactically. It's a sensible thing to do. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-

Even your beloved leader encouraged it https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...rity-1-5057779

I'm not ashamed or embarrassed about my other statements. If every benifit/disability claim was genuine, then there would be no need to think about 'modern workhouse'. But we all know so0 many claims are fraudulent, if there was no cash involved, these people wouldn't claim. Simple really.

Top scientists now agree that population is the biggest threat to the planet, so population control is worth thinking about. Come up with a good workable solution and I'll listen. But you wont. You just like to belittle anyone that thinks too 'right wing' for your tastes. Sour grapes because my tactical vote made a difference maybe?

What has the SNP got to do with your statement that " for several hundred years before we had oil, there was no call for Scotland to be independant.". The SNP wasn't even mentioned in your original claim. Nor did you discuss any surge in SNP votes when oil and gas was discovered. That's a whole different discussion.


I don't care if as much as 50% of the electorate voted tactically, it is not something I agree with. It makes a mockery of the whole voting system. And for your information, I do not have a beloved or any other kind of leader. I'm my own person, so to speak, and I decide things for myself, and I am not a member of any Party....so don't assume.


I never asked you to be ashamed or embarrassed about your statements, I said they were incredible and outlandish, but are totally your prerogative.


Regarding the so many fraudulent benefit claims that we all know about, only 2% of the whole benefit system is due to fraud and government error. Now tax fraud....that's where the real money lies.


Population control is not something I have really thought about much, but am open to a reasonable discussion on the topic. What I don't like though is talk of compulsory sterilisation programmes. That is the start of the path leading to eugenics and to me, that's a big no no.


I am not in the habit of attempting to belittle anyone, no matter what type of "wing" they are. I'll take people to task if I disagree with them, and expect them to, as you have just done, come back at me for further discussion, but that is not the same as belittling someone. And I can promise you, I don't do "Sour Grapes".

I am not letting that other matter go btw.

[Goodfellers]

On 'the other matter', you have clearly been following these threads to know what I have been posting, yet you claim you do not know who Corky?Maggie or ODD are?? Or are you only stalking me?

[Shabbychic]

On 'the other matter', you have clearly been following these threads to know what I have been posting, yet you claim you do not know who Corky?Maggie or ODD are?? Or are you only stalking me?

Why would I stalk you? I do follow things on the forum from time to time, but don't always comment. Your workhouse comment was so outrageous at the time, I remembered it. Can't even remember what thread it was on.

Regarding your "dream team", yes I have seen some posts from the Corky person, although I don't really remember any from the Maggie one, and I haven't a clue who ODD is, but I do not know who they are.

It really is a sad day though, when you attack people who have the cheek to question your views.

[Goodfellers]

I've just gone back to re-read my 'outrageous' workhouse post

"

I know this suggestion will not be popular, but I think the government should bring back a modern version of the Victorian workhouse.

Everyone is guaranteed a roof over their head, three meals a day and warmth in winter This is in exchange for all benefits. There should be the ability to earn a small amount each week for personal items, be that cigarettes, alcohol or other treats.

Now I will await the backlash. "

I am suprised you managed to contain your 'outrage' and not post, as you clearly remember it so well.

I still stand by it.

I know that there are many people struggling to keep a warm house at the moment. I bet if this was offered some would take it up willingly.

[Gronnuck]

Shabbychic...

Let's look at 'The daddy of them all'...……………..Let's look at SNP votes over the last hundred years. I wonder why there was a surge in SNP votes about the time gas then oil was discovered? A mere coincidence?

1935 25,652
1945 30,595
1950 9,708
1951 7,299
1955 12,112
1959 21,738
1964 64,044
1966 128,474
1970 306,802
1974 633,180
1974 839,617
1979 504,259
1983 331,975
1987 416,473
1992 629,564
1997 621,550
2001 464,314
2005 412,267
2010 491,386
2015 1,454,463 (Took most of the Labour vote)
2017 977,569
2019 1,242,380

I think you will find that about 10% of the electorate voted tactically. It's a sensible thing to do. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-

Even your beloved leader encouraged it https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...rity-1-5057779

I'm not ashamed or embarrassed about my other statements. If every benifit/disability claim was genuine, then there would be no need to think about 'modern workhouse'. But we all know so0 many claims are fraudulent, if there was no cash involved, these people wouldn't claim. Simple really.

Top scientists now agree that population is the biggest threat to the planet, so population control is worth thinking about. Come up with a good workable solution and I'll listen. But you wont. You just like to belittle anyone that thinks too 'right wing' for your tastes. Sour grapes because my tactical vote made a difference maybe?

The wish for Scotland to be an independent country and free of Westminster rule predates the birth of the SNP in the 1930s. You appear to be lacking in any depth of knowledge of Scottish History.

[Goodfellers]

Obviously....

The figures just show how little appetite there was until the mid 1960's.

Do you want me to list all the results pre the formation of the SNP for you?

[Shabbychic]

I've just gone back to re-read my 'outrageous' workhouse post

"

I know this suggestion will not be popular, but I think the government should bring back a modern version of the Victorian workhouse.

Everyone is guaranteed a roof over their head, three meals a day and warmth in winter This is in exchange for all benefits. There should be the ability to earn a small amount each week for personal items, be that cigarettes, alcohol or other treats.

Now I will await the backlash. "

I am suprised you managed to contain your 'outrage' and not post, as you clearly remember it so well.

I still stand by it.

I know that there are many people struggling to keep a warm house at the moment. I bet if this was offered some would take it up willingly.

You wonder why I remembered your post? Do you actually even know what a workhouse, or as they were called in Scotland, a poorhouse, was?


Well I used to work in what had previously been a poorhouse, and had access to many of the original records, and trust me, it was not a nice comfy place to live. The conditions and rules these poor souls, who were classed as paupers, had to live and work in, were atrocious. Many, many "inmates" (as they were called) died there, and were not even given a proper funeral. The were buried in a small field at the back of the institution, in paupers graves, with no markers or anything, and are still there to this day, in two grassed over, walled off areas. No proper figures were kept of how many.


Families were split up, and lived in designated dorms. The women were only allowed to keep any children under 2 with them. The men spent their days doing things like breaking up rocks, for their keep, not for extra pocket money, because they didn't get any, and they were actually punished for any hammers they broke while carrying out their tasks.


I remember reading about a young woman, in the "Punishment Book", who attempted to run away, but she was reported to the police, brought back, and charged with theft. Do you know what she stole? The petticoat she was wearing. It had been supplied to her by the home and was classed as their property.


So don't tell me how wonderful a workhouse or poorhouse would be for those in poverty at the moment. It's a decent government that is needed. One who works for the people, makes sure they have decent wages and homes to live in, and not just to line their own pockets, or those of their cronies.

[Shabbychic]

And there is plenty of blatant, racist, anti-English sentiment expressed in Scotland as well- as described in last Friday's 'Groat! Sadly this goes on everywhere and against many or any identifiable group of people that the perpetrators do not like and are ready to blame. It needs to be challenged when it rears it's ugly head wherever and whenever.

I take it you are referring to the article about Struan Mackie? I find it totally unacceptable for anyone to be treated like that. By all means take them to task on their policies and political views, politicians must expect that, but race and personal threats should never come into it. As he said in the article, it is happening to those of all Parties across the board. Apparently some female politicians are having a particularly hard time at the moment, causing many to leave politics altogether. It's not right.

[orkneycadian]

Population control is not something I have really thought about much......

Where have you been up till now? The world population has doubled in the last 50 years. It took 350,000 years for the population of homo sapiens to reach 1 billion. Nowadays, we add a billion every 11 or 12 years.

.... but am open to a reasonable discussion on the topic.

Feel free to contribute. But to set the scene, world overpopulation is not Westminsters fault, nor will it be solved by Scexit.

What I don't like though is talk of compulsory sterilisation programmes. That is the start of the path leading to eugenics and to me, that's a big no no.

Do then give us your thoughts. I listed mine in another thread, and they primarily revolve around education. Lets not have folk harp on about climate change all the time, without also discussing the underlying reason - The population emergency.

As you have come into it late, maybe a good place to start would be to research the 1972 Club of Rome report "Limits to Growth". To whet your appetite, below is a chart from that report, which was one of the first uses of computer modelling;



Interesting that the 1972 simulation accurately predicted things going to rats in the noughties. And according to the simulation, somewhere about now, the death rate is due to start rising.

[Goodfellers]

You wonder why I remembered your post? Do you actually even know what a workhouse, or as they were called in Scotland, a poorhouse, was?


Well I used to work in what had previously been a poorhouse, and had access to many of the original records, and trust me, it was not a nice comfy place to live. The conditions and rules these poor souls, who were classed as paupers, had to live and work in, were atrocious. Many, many "inmates" (as they were called) died there, and were not even given a proper funeral. The were buried in a small field at the back of the institution, in paupers graves, with no markers or anything, and are still there to this day, in two grassed over, walled off areas. No proper figures were kept of how many.


Families were split up, and lived in designated dorms. The women were only allowed to keep any children under 2 with them. The men spent their days doing things like breaking up rocks, for their keep, not for extra pocket money, because they didn't get any, and they were actually punished for any hammers they broke while carrying out their tasks.


I remember reading about a young woman, in the "Punishment Book", who attempted to run away, but she was reported to the police, brought back, and charged with theft. Do you know what she stole? The petticoat she was wearing. It had been supplied to her by the home and was classed as their property.


So don't tell me how wonderful a workhouse or poorhouse would be for those in poverty at the moment. It's a decent government that is needed. One who works for the people, makes sure they have decent wages and homes to live in, and not just to line their own pockets, or those of their cronies.

All that you have stated is irrelevant.

I'm suggesting a 'modern' version. NOT reverting to a Victorian style system.

Have you heard of Chelsea pensioners. The ex service chaps in bright red coats? They give up their service pension to live in rent free heated accommodation with three meals a day. I suppose that too is 'outrageous' as it is very similar to what I'm suggesting. Let's start a petition to get this outrageous outdated system abolished!