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Thread: Separatist hypocrisy

  1. #21

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    Well, I was a bit out with my time, but has wee Krankie said anything other than the word "mandate" for the last 6 hours?

    Not sure why - I have not counted up the constituency results in full yet, partly as all I have found so far is an interactive map to show the SNP share of the vote, and not a nice sorted table! But at first glance is seems that well below half of the Scottish constituencies returned 50% or more of a vote share for the SNP. Still need to add the share of the vote for their seperatist cohorts, the Green Party, but its nothing like the clean sweep they would need to say hand on heart that every single constituency in Scotland voted in favour of a separatist party, and that no constituency will be dragged along against their will. Add to that the fact that nationally, the SNP vote share was just 45%, and the Greens, just 1%, then the total separatist vote was just 46%. If thats taken as the feeling of the Scottish electorate for another Neverendum, then its little different from the 45% Yes result in 2014. Its not even as high as the nearly 50% national share of the vote that the SNP got in 2015. So support is lower in 2019, than it was in 2015, and thats reflected in the lower number of seats won.

    So nothing to see here - No mandate - The Scottish electorate have spoken, and yet again, less than half of us have a desire for separatism.

    Now, Nicola, there are some people in Govan who would really like to you to get on with sorting out their day to day issues, and the real matters that affect them. Could you maybe start on that and keep your mind focused on it for the next 5 years?
    Last edited by orkneycadian; 13-Dec-19 at 13:32. Reason: Grammar

  2. #22

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    Well, well, that was an interesting night.

    As Orkneycadian has just pointed out, the SNP received 45% of votes cast. That's 1.2million votes out of a possible 4.1million.

    With those figures I say bring on Indryref2.

    We can then finally put the SNP in their place. (Until the SNP find yet another reason to hold Indyref3 of course).

  3. #23
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    [QUOTE=orkneycadian;1188612]Well, I was a bit out with my time, but has wee Krankie said anything other than the word "mandate" for the last 6 hours?

    Not sure why - I have not counted up the constituency results in full yet, partly as all I have found so far is an interactive map to show the SNP share of the vote, and not a nice sorted table! But at first glance is seems that well below half of the Scottish constituencies returned 50% more of a vote share for the SNP. Still need to add the share of the vote for their seperatist cohorts, the Green Party, but its nothing like the clean sweep they would need to say hand on heart that every single constituency in Scotland voted in favour of a separatist party, and that no constituency will be dragged along against their will. Add to that the fact that nationally, the SNP vote share was just 45%, and the Greens, just 1%, then the total separatist vote was just 46%. If thats taken as the feeling of the Scottish electorate for another Neverendum, then its little different from the 45% Yes result in 2014. Its not even as high as the nearly 50% national share of the vote that the SNP got in 2015. So support is lower in 2019, than it was in 2015, and thats reflected in the lower number of seats won.

    So nothing to see here - No mandate - The Scottish electorate have spoken, and yet again, less than half of us have a desire for separatism.

    Now, Nicola, there are some people in Govan who would really like to you to get on with sorting out their day to day issues, and the real matters that affect them. Could you maybe start on that and keep your mind focused on it for the next 5 years?[/QUOT
    You come over as someone in the wrong political relationship ,and wrong point of focus for your anger. You have the right to choose and that includes where we live , my neighbor has moved from England because it wasn't for them anymore . He said " it's easier for me to move than try to change the town or country in was in" . It's not right or polite to call people names ,we would tell a child off for name calling . You state that " some people in govan who would really like she to get on with sorting things out" we she could if her hands and funding were not tied to Westminster . Don't blame others that you yourself have hamstrung by your politics and voting .
    Last edited by dozy; 13-Dec-19 at 13:06.

  4. #24

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    I like where I live Dozy. In Orkney, which is part of the UK. What gets very tiresome is the very vocal minority, 45% in 2014, 46% yesterday if you count in the Greens, who keep trying to tell us all that I should live in Orkney, now not part of the UK. Then they tell us that a union cannot be withdrawn from if it would mean that one subscriber to that union would be dragged out against their will. But yet, would happily pull Scottish constituencies out of the UK against their will. Sure, there are some Scottish constituencies that voted more than 50% SNP yesterday. Even without the Green votes, we have no doubt on what their wishes are on independence. But that wish is not universal across Scotland, nor is it in the majority.

    To coin a phrase from Nicola "Orkney and Shetlands Voice is not being heard in Holyrood", where you can substitute "Orkney and Shetland" with Caithness, any of the other seats that the SNP did not win last night. You can even substitute the constituencies that elected SNP, but with less than 50% share of the vote.

    This is where Nicola, and all her supporters, need to get into their thick skulls, that whatever argument she makes regards Scotland and Westminster, works just as well for Scottish regions and Holyrood.

    BTW, whats happened to the sock puppet twins? Neither have been logged into this site since the 9th. One at 22:25, the other at 16:32. Most odd........ Almost as odd as them both joining up 11 days apart a few years ago.
    Last edited by orkneycadian; 13-Dec-19 at 13:55. Reason: grammar again....

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by orkneycadian View Post
    I like where I live Dozy. In Orkney, which is part of the UK. What gets very tiresome is the very vocal minority, 45% in 2014, 46% yesterday if you count in the Greens, who keep trying to tell us all that I should live in Orkney, now not part of the UK. Then they tell us that a union cannot be withdrawn from if it would mean that one subscriber to that union would be dragged out against their will. But yet, would happily pull Scottish constituencies out of the UK against their will. Sure, there are some Scottish constituencies that voted more than 50% SNP yesterday. Even without the Green votes, we have no doubt on what their wishes are on independence. But that wish is not universal across Scotland, nor is it in the majority.

    To coin a phrase from Nicola "Orkney and Shetlands Voice is not being heard in Holyrood", where you can substitute "Orkney and Shetland" with Caithness, any of the other seats that the SNP did not win last night. You can even substitute the constituencies that elected SNP, but with less than 50% share of the vote.

    This is where Nicola, and all her supporters, need to get into their thick skulls, that whatever argument she makes regards Scotland and Westminster, works just as well for Scottish regions and Holyrood.

    BTW, whats happened to the sock puppet twins? Neither have been logged into this site since the 9th. One at 22:25, the other at 16:32. Most odd........ Almost as odd as them both joining up 11 days apart a few years ago.
    Nice to know ,drop in next time your going through St Margaret for the ferry . I've always got the kettle on ,we can swap stories.

    It only took 37% for Brexit and that agenda was written on the back of a Boris condom packet. Therefore it may be better to ask this question to Holyrood " what would you do to make things better for us , don't answer in the whole just about the place where in live". Orkney makes great use of what it has to offer in many ways ,but I do feel that choosing the Lib dem may work more against than for ,sometimes you have to pick someone that has the ear of those in power ,than picking more to spite. . Let's ask the big questions for our political contenders ,on all levels and see what they have to say.
    I personally don't fear independence ,I would rather trust those around me. Than those who see me has a person from a lower partner in a failed contract ,written 300 years past. Any Scottish government has to show " It will listen and take what the local community sees as a priority" . What if all those on the Org agree to put questions to our political masters and see what the results come from it . There's plenty we agree on and for the bits we don't ,compromise is an option . Let's ask the questions of them and not each other.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goodfellers View Post
    Well, well, that was an interesting night.

    As Orkneycadian has just pointed out, the SNP received 45% of votes cast. That's 1.2million votes out of a possible 4.1million.

    With those figures I say bring on Indryref2.

    We can then finally put the SNP in their place. (Until the SNP find yet another reason to hold Indyref3 of course).
    Mibbes aye mibbes naw. Bear in mind that EU citizens and 16 and 17 year olds don't get to vote in UK General Elections...but do in Scottish elections and referendums, so 45% without their votes is a good start. Better than the 20 odd percent we started with at the first indyref.

  7. #27

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    Which was meant to be a 'once in a generation' vote, remember?!

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fulmar View Post
    Which was meant to be a 'once in a generation' vote, remember?!
    That was simply Salmond's personal opinion, not any kind of official political statement by the SNP at any time And the wider pro-independence movement has never given any indication that that was their thinking. How long is a generation anyway? Since the 2014 vote, my family has added another generation; a political generation is five years..or the length of time between elections, so since 2014, we are now in a third political generation. If we hadn't had the two elections post 2015, we'd have been having one in 2020 anyway...so by the time there is any chance of another indyref, it will be a political generation later.

    As has been said innumerable times since 2014, if the status quo had been improved on the lines offered by the VOW, something produced in defiance of the purdah rules, AND the promises made by the Better Together mouthpieces had come to fruition, things may well have been different. The desire for independence will never go away, it is as old as the Treaty of Union, but it may well have been sidelined for another generation...but that wasn't how Westminster and the Unionist Parties wanted to play it....something they made very clear when, the day after the vote, Cameron stuck two fingers up at us and announced EVEL.

    So we have had five years of broken promises since 2014, and I can list them if you like, culminating in Brexit, which made a mockery of " EU membership is only guaranteed with a No vote" and which has drastically changed the status quo to the extent that it is now considered necessary to implement a referendum mandate already voted for in accordance with the UK rules, in order to ascertain if the voters of Scotland have changed their minds, as those in a democracy are entitled to do (else it isn't a democracy, but a dictatorship)

  9. #29

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    Ok, so in future, whenever Nicola Sturgeon says something important, I'm to regard it as just her personal opinion! Rubbish! Everyone understood that 'once in a generation' meant a human generation in the universally understood meaning of the term.
    Fine, bring on your vote, Oddquine and if you lose again, then what. A 3rd referendum, a 4th until you get what you think is the right response? Even Ms Sturgeon acknowledges that not all who voted SNP this time want another independence referendum and as things stand right now, 55% of people voted for parties other than the SNP as opposed to 44% who did.

  10. #30

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    If there is ever to be another indyref , would it only be fair that the whole of the UK take part in a vote that will affect everyone.
    HEADWARK

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fulmar View Post
    Ok, so in future, whenever Nicola Sturgeon says something important, I'm to regard it as just her personal opinion! Rubbish! Everyone understood that 'once in a generation' meant a human generation in the universally understood meaning of the term.
    Fine, bring on your vote, Oddquine and if you lose again, then what. A 3rd referendum, a 4th until you get what you think is the right response? Even Ms Sturgeon acknowledges that not all who voted SNP this time want another independence referendum and as things stand right now, 55% of people voted for parties other than the SNP as opposed to 44% who did.
    If she says something new and important, she does it officially...(more on the lines of May or Johnson making an announcement to the press at a podium in front of 10 Downing Street and the gathered press, a statement in Parliament or a speech at some conference or another)....not as an comment at an interview on the BBC on SNP policy or intentions after a particular incident before having any discussions with colleagues or the wider party. For your information and edification , here is a link to the bit of that interview which shows that "once in a generation" was Alex Salmond's personal opinion and not SNP policy. https://twitter.com/angusmacneilsnp/...735040?lang=en.

    He also said, that "the only circumstance for another referendum would be an "extra mandate at a subsequent general election"...which the SNP has, in case you didn't notice...so even if he HAD said once in a generation, he also said that a change in circumstance with a fresh mandate would warrant another attempt.

    In my opinion, there probably will be other independence referendums at some stage in the future until independence is achieved, given there will always be people who think the Union has served any purpose it ever had (which was mainly trade with the colonies for Scotland, a settled Protestant succession for the English monarchy and taxes from Scotland to help pay England's National Debt and fund England's wars ,without the money having to be asked from and approved by the Scottish Parliament). However, as I am in my seventies, I suspect that if we don't win this next indyref, given the current circumstances in the UK, there won't be another one before I die...but I am hoping that, if we don't vote for independence next time, I die before there is another General election in the UK, because I really really don't like being shackled to what what England has become.
    Last edited by Oddquine; 14-Dec-19 at 10:44.

  12. #32

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    As Fulmar pointed out, the majority of Scots are happy with the current situation.

    The SNP need to produce a financial forecast removing any oil/gas revenue as they are going to become negligable in the very near future.

    They will need to convince the working population that they will not be the ones paying for all the SNP promises. This was a big problem for Jeremy Corbyn...free stuff is great, but someone has to pay for it.

    And as I've pointed out there was virtually no appetite for independance until the mid 60's when oil and gas was discovered. Do your research before making blanket statements.

  13. #33

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    It is categorically not a mandate when 55% of the votes cast were not for it- and we all know what the SNP stands for and were under no illusions about that. Sure, they got more seats but not more votes- face it. Do you ever go to England Oddquine? Funnily enough,it's a country full of diverse folk just the same as in Scotland and with similar range of opinions, some good some bad.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oddquine View Post
    How long is a generation anyway?
    According to Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation "It can also be described as, "the average period, generally considered to be about thirty years, during which children are born and grow up, become adults, and begin to have children of their own".

    That doesnt mean a generation is the gap in time between an expectant mother checking in to the maternity unit, and checking out again, a few days later, babe in arms. No, a generation would be the time period between a mother checking into the maternity unit, and her daughter doing the same, many years later.

    Of course, Alex Salmond has an altogether different concept of a generational period, but then, this is the man who is awaiting trial for over a dozen alleged sexual offences.

    If Salmonds claims of "once in a generation" are to be dismissed, then what else was said?

    Here we have the then deputy first minister in 2013 - Fast forward to 4:42 in the video clip to avoid the stuck record syndrome

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-pol...evolution-vote;

    Where she clearly says in a BBC interview, outside Holyrood;

    "The SNP have always said that in our view, these kind of referendums are once in a generation events, this is probably a once in a lifetime opportunity for Scotland......"

    So, there we have the then deputy leader of the SNP, deputy first minister of Scotland stating in an extensive interview with the BBC, outside Holyrood that the SNP (not her, not Salmond) have always said that in their view that this is a once in a generation event, probably a once in a lifetime opportunity. Not a throwaway personal opinion she joked about when half cut in the Holyrood bar, but a very clear statement.

    Now, Wee Krankie is not awaiting trial on alleged sexual offences, so we can only assume that her understanding of the definition of the word Generation, is more closely aligned to that in the wiki article above, and how the rest of us understand it. But she goes further and uses the words "once in a lifetime opportunity". Given that those who were aged 16 and 17 were given that opportunity in 2014, then I guess she needs to wait another 70 plus years for her words to be true. Otherwise, it would be a twice in a lifetime opportunity. And we are supposed to believe what she says, aren't we?

  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oddquine View Post
    So we have had five years of broken promises since 2014, and I can list them if you like, culminating in Brexit, which made a mockery of " EU membership is only guaranteed with a No vote"......
    Didn't Krankie herself say, just a few days ago, according to https://www.theedinburghreporter.co....-of-number-10/

    "In Scotland the SNP is the only party strong enough to stop Boris Johnson."
    So that's what she said. But yet, even if every voter in Scotland voted SNP on Thursday, Boris would not have been locked out of no 10. So what she said was untrue. I wonder how many hapless souls in Scotland were sucked in by that lie, voting SNP, only to find they had been led up the garden path by Krankie.

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by dozy View Post
    It only took 37% for Brexit .....
    Not quite. Well, you're right in that 37% of the registered electorate voted for Brexit - 17,410,742 Leave votes out of 46,500,001 registered electors. But 12.9 million of them didn't vote at all. Fair enough, its their prerogative. But when counting votes, in all referendums, elections, votes, whatever you want to call them, then the norm is to count the votes as a fraction of the total votes cast - Not as a fraction of the total electorate. All you do by doing the latter is diminish the share for the vote for all voting options.

    In 2016, 17,410,742 Leave votes were cast out of a total number of votes cast of 33,577,342. Giving a Leave share of the vote of 51.89%. That could have been higher had the 12.9 million others turned out, but conversely, it could also have been lower.

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by orkneycadian View Post
    I like where I live Dozy. In Orkney, which is part of the UK. What gets very tiresome is the very vocal minority, 45% in 2014, 46% yesterday if you count in the Greens, who keep trying to tell us all that I should live in Orkney, now not part of the UK. Then they tell us that a union cannot be withdrawn from if it would mean that one subscriber to that union would be dragged out against their will. But yet, would happily pull Scottish constituencies out of the UK against their will. Sure, there are some Scottish constituencies that voted more than 50% SNP yesterday. Even without the Green votes, we have no doubt on what their wishes are on independence. But that wish is not universal across Scotland, nor is it in the majority.

    To coin a phrase from Nicola "Orkney and Shetlands Voice is not being heard in Holyrood", where you can substitute "Orkney and Shetland" with Caithness, any of the other seats that the SNP did not win last night. You can even substitute the constituencies that elected SNP, but with less than 50% share of the vote.

    This is where Nicola, and all her supporters, need to get into their thick skulls, that whatever argument she makes regards Scotland and Westminster, works just as well for Scottish regions and Holyrood.

    BTW, whats happened to the sock puppet twins? Neither have been logged into this site since the 9th. One at 22:25, the other at 16:32. Most odd........ Almost as odd as them both joining up 11 days apart a few years ago.
    Call me a big cynic, but I notice an account that has been dormant since mid 2017 has joined the board. ……..Mid 2017 was when the lovely pair of Corky and Maggie created accounts. Now they have gone quite and Odd starts up. I'm guessing Old hasn't blocked you, and as Corky has, he must have been getting frustrated at not being able to comment....Just my thoughts, I'm sure Odd/Corky/Maggie will set me straight......How many accounts has he got?

  18. #38

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    Doesn't the admin of this forum have any control over sock puppet accounts?

  19. #39
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    IMO In all your posts and from the beginning of this thread Orkneycadian you have disparaged the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon despite the fact that this party has been re-elected time and time again. Your posts are continually confrontational and bitter. You may call us ‘seperatists’ but many of us would consider ourselves ‘normalists’ for it is not normal in the 21st century for one country to be ruled by another, regardless of its history.
    I haven’t read all of your posts so I have yet to find your suggested alternative way forward. Boris Johnson and the conservatives? Labour and who? You’re obviously a unionist so please tell us why you are so enamoured by parties working from London and explain how and why they are so supportive of Orkney. I am genuinely interested.
    FYI Boris and his conservatives won 43.6% of the UK vote and claim a mandate to govern. Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP won 45% of the Scottish vote and so are entitled to claim the right for a referendum and allow the people of Scotland to choose their way forward. What is there to be worried about?
    I don’t want to read another bitter malevolent rant otherwise I will consider this all a waste of my time.
    'We are more alike, my friends, than we are unalike.'
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  20. #40

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    I think you overread things a bit there Gronnuck. I guess before I reply, you're not part of the Corky Smeek / Oddquine / Maggie747 franchise are you? Just checking.....

    Scotland is not ruled by another country - Its part of the UK, and Scotland has its fair share of representation in that union. 59 seats out of 650. Whats not proportional is that 80% of those 59 seats are filled by SNP MPs who collectively only took 45% share of the vote. But that's just a quirk of our election system, and one we are all used to.

    You enquire as to my political allegiances. Well, I can tell you this - I did not vote Conservative, nor did I vote tactically to keep the SNP, or any others "out". I voted for who I thought was the best person to represent Orkney's interests. The rest is between me and the ballot box, but the above perhaps busts a few more myths you have developed in your mind.

    You enquire why I am supportive of being in the UK. Well, from the wiki page - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Scotland

    "Scotland still conducts the majority of its trade within the UK: in 2014, Scotland's exports totalled 76 billion, of which 48.5 billion (64%) was with constituent nations of the UK, 11.6 billion with the rest of the European Union (EU), and 15.2 billion with other parts of the world."

    The rest of the UK is our biggest trading partner, by a long shot. We export more than 4 times the value of products and services to the rUK than we do to the EU. And we export 31% more to the rest of the world than we do to the EU. In return, we see terrible governance from the EU. Its the EU who dictate things like our agricultural and fishing policy, to the detriment of so many Scottish communities.

    Regards the elections. What we are being forced to do is try and defend the misinterpretation of previous elections and referendums, and the SNP are undoubtedly the main protagonists of that. I would be quite happy to accept that in 2016, the whole of the UK voted to leave the EU, with 52% support for, 48% against. But the SNP are not happy with that. They try to twist and turn the result to their own ends by saying "Scotland didn;t vote to leave". Sorry, but the ballot paper asked if the UK should leave. I don't recall a ballot paper asking if Scotland should leave. Its this twisting and turning of results that caused so much division, and the SNP are primarily responsible'

    What we should have, SNP arguments excluded is;

    *2014 - Scotland voted, as a whole, to stay in the UK - Case closed
    *2016 - The UK as a whole voted to leave the EU - Case closed
    *2019 - UK constituents in Scotland elect 47 or 48 SNP MPs to send to Westminster. Case closed

    That's how it should be. And I would be happy with that. Instead, we have the SNP twisting and turning the results again for their own gain. The election on Thursday was solely to elect MPs for Westminster. That's all. Nothing more. Then, those MPs should go to Westminster for the next 5 years and represent their constituents - Not their party whips, but their constituents. But somehow, the SNP are turning that election of MP's into some kind of mandate for the next chapter of the Neverendum. Eh?

    So that's where we have to come out on the defensive and point out all these errors, and highlight that only 45% voted for the SNP and 1% for the Scottish Greens. 46%. No mandate. But then, that question wasn't even on the ballot paper.

    Nicola and all her friends really need to try and separate elections for MPs with constitutional matters. It is true that Boris has a mandate to govern with just 43.6% of the vote. But that's the same quirk that allows Nicola to grab a selfie with 80% of the Scottish MPs with just 45% of the vote. That's a quirk of the constituency election system and the SNP have come out handsomely on it.

    But constitutional matters we settle by referendums - Like those in 2014 and 2016. And in those, we don't have the first past the post quirk.

    So read this if you wish. But in doing so, take a look at the SNP and what they are trying to achieve. Forcing through a constitutional matter that wasn't even mentioned on the ballot paper last week, on the strength of a 45% vote. If that doesn't make Scotland Afraid, Very Afraid, then I don't know what does.
    Last edited by orkneycadian; 15-Dec-19 at 13:55.

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