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Thread: Where have all the Westminater /unionist flag waves gone

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by dozy View Post
    It's terrible when rich white Westminster men use FEAR and TREATS to get the votes from the old .
    I agree. Giving old folk sweeties all the time can't be good for those that still have all their own teeth.

  2. #22

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    Hopefully this 'old' oap unionist tory supporter will be dead by the time Scotlands goes independent....ps I don't plan on shuffling off this mortal coil anytime soon

  3. #23
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    Don't worry, it'll never happen. And even it it did, Hollyrood would be begging on bended knee at Westminster after 18 months.

  4. #24
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    After the debacle that is Westminster over the last five years, I have changed my view from a firm ‘No’ to a ‘Yes’. The reasons are many but in 2014 Scotland was told that if we wanted to remain in the EU we would have to remain in the Union. Well that worked well didn’t it! Then there was Gordon Brown’s ‘Vow’ backed by the rest of the Westminster leaders…, they weren't particularly quick getting that up and running.
    Scotland is big enough, rich enough and smart enough to stand on its own. I can’t for the life of me understand why anyone would willingly hand over 70-80% of their earned income to the next-door neighbour to have them hand back a pittance and tell you how to spend it!
    The more recent past has seen the evolution of a hostile immigration policy and a significant swing to the Right south of the border. All this is being exacerbated by a predominately right-wing press controlled by London. Scotland is better than that.
    I don’t agree with everything the SNP does, but when Scotland gains its independence and we have an election the people of Scotland can chose our own path.
    'We are more alike, my friends, than we are unalike.'
    Maya Angelou

  5. #25

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    https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/13296
    The IFS (independant group) doubt Scotland would be better off. We don't hand over all our cash and get a pittance returned.
    This group do not have an axe to grind either way.

    Had Scotland gained independance in 2014 we would be in a mess now. SNP over estimated oil revenue massivly (how can they claim to want the greenest government in the world, yet base all their spending on oil revenues?)

    The SNP leadership think Trump is an idiot, yet the SNP put taxes up for the very people Scotland needs, (teachers, nurses and doctors) and wonder why they struggle to recruit. The SNP are a one trick pony. Nigel Farrage is the English version of the SNP, but he admits he has no plans for running the UK other than getting us out of the EU. The SNP wont admit they have not got a clue about anything other than 'independance at any cost'. Scotland deserves better.

    Someone still needs to explain why Scotland would want to re-join the EU. If all the reports about Scotlands dire finances are untrue and we will become a land of milk and honey, then why would we not want to spend all that money on our schools, health service, roads, and social care? Rather than handing over a huge fee each year to fund those services in foreign lands?

    Sort Scotland out first, then think about handing over billions to the EU.
    Last edited by Goodfellers; 08-Oct-19 at 12:22.

  6. #26
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    Polite request Goodfellers; please reduce the size of your font, you come across as shouting.
    'We are more alike, my friends, than we are unalike.'
    Maya Angelou

  7. #27

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    Will do,...when you get to my age, a bigger font is easier than finding your glasses. Point taken in the spirit it was meant! :-)

  8. #28
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    Thanks Goodfellers. Unfortunately I haven't got time to address all the issues you raised immediately but I will get round to it.
    There's a fairly comprehensive explanation of Scottish income tax at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46546874 I have a vested interest since one of my sons is a Police Officer and his wife is a Teacher. so they are affected by any increase in Income Tax. However, compared to England, they benefit from no prescription charges, reduced child care costs, lower council tax charges and when our Grandchildren are of an age. no tuition fees. It’s very much a case of ‘swings and roundabouts’.
    Catch you later.
    'We are more alike, my friends, than we are unalike.'
    Maya Angelou

  9. #29

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    Your rage, dozy, does not change the fact that the referendum result last time was a resounding 'no'! If there is another vote then we will see what the view is now but meantime, you'll just have to live with it. For your information, older people were/are quite capable of rational analysis of the arguments and reaching their own conclusions and do not need to be patronised by you.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronnuck View Post
    I can’t for the life of me understand why anyone would willingly hand over 70-80% of their earned income to the next-door neighbour to have them hand back a pittance and tell you how to spend it!
    Thanks to the Barnett formula, I understand we hand over a pittance and get more back to spend? Largely on vanity projects, buying shoes and manicures for SNP Lord Provosts, etc.

    Meanwhile, within the EU, we hand over a Kings ransom, and get about half of it back.

  11. #31
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    Goodfellers, Hi again. In response to your issue with the EU. In the EU Scotland would be negotiating its position with the rest of Europe directly as equals, not diluted as ‘part of the UK’. In fact, our position would be stronger. Scotland currently has six MEP’s, but with independence Scotland would have 12 or 13, the same as Denmark, Ireland, and Finland. Scotland has often lost out in European negotiations because what is best for Scotland has been ignored by Westminster.
    When Ted Heath (former Conservative Prime Minister) was negotiating the EU membership rebate for the UK he told the negotiators to consider that Scottish fishing “in the wider UK context, must be regarded as expendable”.
    Scotland doesn’t get its proper share of European funding. The Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) funding gives Westminster a lump sum which is then shared throughout the UK, but we don’t get what we are due. Independent member states of the EU have benefitted from the European Union’s principle that no member state should receive less than the minimum EU average payment rate of €196 per hectare. Had Scotland been an independent member state when the latest CAP round was agreed, this principle would have meant gaining an additional €1 billion of support between 2014 and 2020. If we received the legal EU minimum, we would get 325 million more but if that figure was the EU average the amount goes up to 652 million – and that is every year.
    It is the same situation with fishing. As a result of being a low priority for the UK in EU negotiations, Scotland receives just 1.1% of European fisheries funding despite landing 7% of the European Union’s fish.
    Of course we have to be concerned about what Scotland’s contribution to the EU would be. There’s an interesting article at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48256318 In it, it says, “Each country pays the same proportion of its national income to the EU budget” So if we imagine Scotland’s economy to be similar in size to that of Denmark, Ireland and Finland it would make Scotland a net contributor.
    A small cost for Scotland to be an equal partner in such a huge trading bloc.
    'We are more alike, my friends, than we are unalike.'
    Maya Angelou

  12. #32
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    I take your point regarding the dichotomy regarding the exploitation of oil and gas, and the fact that Scotland is committed to meeting its green targets. However, the two are not incompatible.
    There have been significant increases in investment in the oil industry in recent years and new technology is making further development of the oil and gas industry possible. If customers didn’t buy Scotland’s oil they would buy it elsewhere.
    In an independent Scotland the tax revenues from oil and gas reserves, which currently go to the UK Treasury, would remain in Scotland. At present Scotland’s oil revenues contribute to government expenditure across the entire UK. All the oil income goes to Westminster, along with all the other tax revenues, and Westminster decides how much money is allocated to the Scottish Parliament.
    Oil and Gas UK. (oilandgas.co.uk) estimate that there are up to 24 billion barrels of oil still to be extracted from the North Sea with a wholesale value of up to 1.5 trillion. That’s more than ten times our likely share of national debt.
    Scotland is already a net exporter of electricity, with huge recent growth in the deployment of renewable generation. About 4% of the annual power consumption of England and Wales is met from Scotland. This figure is tending to rise as Scottish renewable power continues to grow faster than in England and as English nuclear plants are closed.
    A leading think tank, Reform Scotland (reformscotland.com) says, “Even using conservative assumptions on prices, Scotland could earn 2B a year exporting electricity and become a world leader in new-energy technology”
    Some facts About Renewable Energy in Scotland:
    It currently supports over 11,000 jobs. It powers the equivalent of every house hold in Scotland.
    It provides 25% of Europe’s tidal potential and 10% of its wave potential. It operates 25% of Europe’s offshore wind resources. More wave and tidal power devices are being tested in the waters off Scotland than in any other country in the world!
    Finally, Renewable Energy in Scotland is on target to meet all of Scotland’s electricity needs, and 11% of its heat requirements by 2020.
    The Scottish government has an interesting website detailing the facts regarding renewable energy production in Scotland https://www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/archive/20170104134816/http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Business-Industry/Energy/Facts
    Last edited by Gronnuck; 08-Oct-19 at 23:18.
    'We are more alike, my friends, than we are unalike.'
    Maya Angelou

  13. #33
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    Good afternoon Goodfellers. I agree the IFS make a good point but they currently adhere to the status quo in that they assume an Independent Scotland will continue to contribute to UK defence, foreign policy, and projects that do not involve Scotland.
    An independent Scotland would keep its oil revenue rather than it go to the Treasury in Westminster. An independent, Nuclear weapons free, Scotland would not have to contribute to a weapon system it did not vote for. Let there be no mistake while the submarines belong to the UK; the missiles do not, they are leased from America and the costs are increasing annually.
    An independent Scotland would not have to contribute to Westminster vanity projects like London Crossrail, HS2, Heathrow expansion etc. Instead it could spend money on Scottish infrastructure projects as it did with the 1.35B Queensferry Crossing.
    Currently the Scottish government spend includes mitigating against the bedroom tax, the rape clause, and other abhorrent tory policies that intentionally hurt people.

    If, as the main stream media would have us believe, Scotland was being subsidised by Westminster do you really think the 533 English constituency MPs would tolerate that and not have raised a complaint by now? They might have an occasional jibe at Scotland, yet so far none of them have tried to instigate ridding the UK of a ‘subsidy Scotland’.
    I suggest we don’t listed to London’s main stream media. Scotland is big enough, smart enough and rich enough to be a normal country.
    'We are more alike, my friends, than we are unalike.'
    Maya Angelou

  14. #34
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    Can I just point out to those who use the 2014 Indyref to argue against any further referenda that a lot of water has passed under the bridge since then. The world has changed, the UK has changed. The tory government and the MSM have vilified our sick, disabled and disadvantaged. Scotland is better than that.
    'We are more alike, my friends, than we are unalike.'
    Maya Angelou

  15. #35

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    Can I just point out that this is what I actually wrote!
    If there is another vote then we will see what the view is now but meantime, you'll just have to live with it.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronnuck View Post
    Can I just point out to those who use the 2014 Indyref to argue against any further referenda that a lot of water has passed under the bridge since then. The world has changed, the UK has changed. The tory government and the MSM have vilified our sick, disabled and disadvantaged. Scotland is better than that.
    Can we have another Hollyrood election on the same basis please? I am fed up of the lot that's in there. A lot of water has passed under the bridge since 2016. The world has changed (Turkey are knocking 7 bells out of Syria), the UK has changed. The SNP minority government have neglected our sick, disables and disadvantaged by focusing all their efforts on indyref, whilst abandoning basic services, and spending cash on manicures and hairdo's. Scotland is better than that.

  17. #37
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    Orkneycadian much as I despair at Turkey’s bombing seven sorts out of the Kurds in northern Syria, I doubt even an independent Scotland could much about it other than condemn Turkey with everyone else. Regarding your post #36, I’ve pulled together some of the things that our SNP administration has done in recent years. While I don’t agree with everything they do they are the only political party that isn’t tied to and bound by a Westminster HQ.
    The Scottish Government led by the SNP announced an increase of around 400m for the Scottish health budget in 2017/18. This is equivalent to 43% of the overall Scottish budget in 2016/17. This is the highest ever figure for yearly government spending on the NHS in Scotland. You can find details of annual spending on the NHS in Scotland in the General Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (GERS) report.
    In August 2017 the Scottish Government started issuing Baby Boxes to new mothers, taking inspiration from a similar scheme in Finland.
    In their 2017 manifesto, the SNP pledged they would outlaw Hydraulic fracturing or fracking unless “it can be proven beyond any doubt that there is no risk to health, communities or the environment”. A subsequent vote in the Scottish Parliament to support an outright ban passed 32 votes to 29, with SNP members abstaining.
    Paul Wheelhouse energy minister announced in 2017. the moratorium would be extended indefinitely, effectively banning the practice.
    Same-sex marriage was passed into law in Scotland in 2014 after The Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Act 2014 received Royal Assent.
    The number of hours of free childcare was extended to 600 hours in 2014 and included three and four year olds and a percentage of two year olds. Details are governed by the Children and Young People (Scotland) Act. They have more ambitious plans for 2020.
    After a gradual reduction of Prescription Charges over the preceding four years the Scottish Government abolished Prescription charges in 2011. This had been an SNP pledge during the 2007 Scottish Parliament elections. The party’s manifesto promised they would “immediately abolish prescription charges for people with chronic health conditions, people with cancer, and people in full time education or training. We will phase out prescription charges for the rest of the population by 2012.”
    On the 1st of April 2008 the Small Business Bonus Scheme was introduced to gives relief on property taxes for businesses which have a rateable value of 35,000 or less. This means many small businesses in Scotland pay no rates on their premises.
    They’ve built or refurbished 750 schools since they came to office in 2007.
    Annual Scottish Government housing statistics show that there have been 70,851 homes completed under the Affordable Housing Supply Program since 2007.
    More recently the setting up of the Scottish National Investment Bank aiming to provide investment to help with “innovation and accelerating the transformation to a low carbon, high-tech, connected, globally competitive and inclusive economy”.
    There is also free personal care for the elderly.
    Protecting the elderly and disabled concession bus pass.
    Getting rid of the Bridge Tolls.
    The building of the Queensferry Crossing.
    The completion of the Borders Railway, carrying forward the concept initiated by Donald Dewer’s administration years before.
    At the same time the SNP administration has worked to mitigate the worse excesses of Westminster government policies, ie. the Bedroom Tax, the Rape Clause, protecting the Education Maintenance Allowance, protecting Scotland’s NHS from privatization, increasing nursing bursaries and keeping free tuition for nurses while both were scrapped in England.
    I could go on. The SNP is the only party working for Scotland and not bound by and taking instructions from its London bosses. After Independence the people of Scotland can have a General Election and choose whatever shade of politics they want.
    'We are more alike, my friends, than we are unalike.'
    Maya Angelou

  18. #38

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    Just read your posts. Not sure where you get your financial information regarding Scotlands wealth. Scotlands GDP is about $200B (if I have calculated properly) That puts us on a par with Portugal, Romania and Greece, rather than Ireland, Finland and Denmark. That would make not make Scotland a net contributor, so I'm not sure the EU (Germany in particular) would want yet another country taking money out of the pot.https://www.statista.com/statistics/...land-annually/ http://statisticstimes.com/economy/e...ies-by-gdp.php

    A favourite saying of drug dealers to 'justify' their trade is "If they didn't buy from me, they would buy from someone else". Scotland cannot justify selling (or even extracting) oil if it truly wants to 'green'.

    I regard Trident as a very expensive insurance policy. If the native Americans had tanks when the cavalry turned up on horseback, the USA would be a different place. We need the biggest baddest deterrent available as the world is an unpredictable nasty place. I've been on a V boat and seen Trident up close, it's an awesome weapon and the population of Helensburgh would be sad to see the Navy leave. I'm happy to pay for it. By voting to remain part of the UK, Scotland has voted for Trident and it's replacement.

    Yes, we do have free education, prescriptions and various other bits, so why can't we recruit enough teachers, nurses and doctors? Newly qualified graduates tend to migrate south, why is that?

    If Scotland had no oil, would it be pushing for independance? The UK has supported Scotland for three hundred years, now the SNP thinks it can stand on its own, it wants to be free of Westminster. What happens when the oil runs out or is worthless? Go begging the UK to take us back?

    I'm a unionist and always will be as things stand. Sorry to all the nationalists.

  19. #39

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    THe EU produce this information on who pays/gets what .............https://www.europarl.europa.eu/exter....html#portugal

  20. #40

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    One of the problems I have with SNP supporters is the 'it's all Westminster's fault' but then use spin to make the SNP look good. For example
    "The Scottish Government led by the SNP announced an increase of around 400m for the Scottish health budget in 2017/18" The SNP played no part in the increase. It was due to the Barnett formula

    https://fraserofallander.org/scottis...ottish-budget/
    The
    Fraser of Allender Institute are often quoted by the SNP govt, so therefore can be trusted.
    Last edited by Goodfellers; 11-Oct-19 at 09:29.

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