Caithness Map :: Links to Site Map Paying too much for broadband? Move to PlusNet broadband and save£££s. Free setup now available - terms apply. PlusNet broadband.  
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 36 of 36

Thread: Should Scotland Be An Independent Country?

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Newsham, North Yorkshire
    Posts
    377

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    I think the prime-minister should get on with the day job and the Brexit negotiations instead of obsessing about another Scottish independence referendum.
    Our prime minister wants to get on with the job. The Scots first minister has tried to chuck a spanner in the works - hopefully - without success.
    I am an Englishman (if you call Liverpool England) who has lived and served in Scotland. I will be happy for the Scots to have what they wish. But is independence a viable proposition for you? If it is then lets get on with it, get all Scottish MPs out of the English Parliament. All our bases out of Scotland and secure our borders. Let Scotland finance itself and get on with it's life and let England get on with it's life. WE wont have to listen to N S, and you wont have to listen to us. I can assure you that that is the opinion of the majority of English - WE are fed up hearing about it. IT IS IMPORTANT to Scotland. From the many friends I have in Scotland I believe the Majority of Scots feel the same way as I do. I may be wrong - but this is not an argument - Just me speaking from the heart for two countries I love.
    Last edited by JimH; 19-Mar-17 at 16:05.
    You can fool some of the people some of the time - but never all of the people all of the time!!

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Caithness
    Posts
    13,011

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JimH View Post
    Our prime minister wants to get on with the job. The Scots first minister has tried to chuck a spanner in the works - hopefully - without success.
    I am an Englishman (if you call Liverpool England) who has lived and served in Scotland. I will be happy for the Scots to have what they wish. But is independence a viable proposition for you? If it is then lets get on with it, get all Scottish MPs out of the English Parliament. All our bases out of Scotland and secure our borders. Let Scotland finance itself and get on with it's life and let England get on with it's life. WE wont have to listen to N S, and you wont have to listen to us. I can assure you that that is the opinion of the majority of English - WE are fed up hearing about it. IT IS IMPORTANT to Scotland. From the many friends I have in Scotland I believe the Majority of Scots feel the same way as I do. I may be wrong - but this is not an argument - Just me speaking from the heart for two countries I love.
    In terms of defence, I believe an attack on England would be an attack on Scotland. An independent Scotland would be part of a greater international military force which would be there to preserve our basic freedoms and democracy. If the fight is justified then I am sure Scotland will be up for the fight. But all too often in recent years Scotland has been dragged into wars that have been illegal and internationally provocative. This has increased the risk to Scotland and not diminished it.
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Highlands
    Posts
    2,877

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    In terms of defence, I believe an attack on England would be an attack on Scotland. An independent Scotland would be part of a greater international military force which would be there to preserve our basic freedoms and democracy. If the fight is justified then I am sure Scotland will be up for the fight. But all too often in recent years Scotland has been dragged into wars that have been illegal and internationally provocative. This has increased the risk to Scotland and not diminished it.
    what military would be protecting Scotland if we were attacked?
    W.A.T.P.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Caithness
    Posts
    13,011

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mi16 View Post
    what military would be protecting Scotland if we were attacked?
    If we are members of an international military alliance then an attack on an individul member is an attack on all the members, no?
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Highlands
    Posts
    2,877

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    If we are members of an international military alliance then an attack on an individul member is an attack on all the members, no?
    And will we be members of this alliance automatically then as a new nation?
    or is it another apply and pay through the nose scenario?
    W.A.T.P.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Caithness
    Posts
    13,011

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mi16 View Post
    And will we be members of this alliance automatically then as a new nation?
    or is it another apply and pay through the nose scenario?
    In the short term, I don't know, it may be NATO, it may not be NATO but I'm pretty certain we would become automatic members of NATO if Scotland expressed a desire to do so. There doesn't seem to be much enforcement about not paying 2% of GDP on defence, pretty sure it is just a recommendation.

    In the long term, now that the UK is leaving the EU, the last major obstacle to an EU army will disappear.
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Highlands
    Posts
    2,877

    Default

    Perhaps there will be an EU army
    But why would they defend Scotland when we are not an EU member?
    W.A.T.P.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Caithness
    Posts
    13,011

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mi16 View Post
    Perhaps there will be an EU army
    But why would they defend Scotland when we are not an EU member?
    I'm pretty sure an independent Scotland would be an EU member if there was an application. And there would be very little in the way of negotiation so it would be more or less fast tracked.
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Highlands
    Posts
    2,877

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    I'm pretty sure an independent Scotland would be an EU member if there was an application. And there would be very little in the way of negotiation so it would be more or less fast tracked.
    thats not what was said previously
    and who is to say all nations will vote us in
    never assume anything to assume makes an ass out of u and me
    W.A.T.P.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2,228

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JimH View Post
    Our prime minister wants to get on with the job. The Scots first minister has tried to chuck a spanner in the works - hopefully - without success.
    I am an Englishman (if you call Liverpool England) who has lived and served in Scotland. I will be happy for the Scots to have what they wish. But is independence a viable proposition for you? If it is then lets get on with it, get all Scottish MPs out of the English Parliament. All our bases out of Scotland and secure our borders. Let Scotland finance itself and get on with it's life and let England get on with it's life. WE wont have to listen to N S, and you wont have to listen to us. I can assure you that that is the opinion of the majority of English - WE are fed up hearing about it. IT IS IMPORTANT to Scotland. From the many friends I have in Scotland I believe the Majority of Scots feel the same way as I do. I may be wrong - but this is not an argument - Just me speaking from the heart for two counties I love.
    Depends if you can call a spanner in the works the prospect that any EU Brexit deal based on any Scottish resources would be null and void if we voted for independence. I guess May would be more sensible not to use them as bargaining chips.....just in case.

    Why wouldn't independence be a viable proposition for us if it is a viable proposition for Malta, New Zealand, Ireland etc? That's a serious question, btw. What is so different with countries smaller than or the same size as Scotland that they can be independent and we can't?

    We produce enough to feed ourselves, so we won't starve, though admittedly it wouldn't be the most exciting diet.....we produce enough electricity to power more homes and businesses than we have in the country, so we won't freeze or stumble about in the dark...we have a superabundance of water, so won't go thirsty any time soon.....we have a better overseas balance of trade by a country mile than England does......we wouldn't have to pay a large chunk of our income to fund general UK services, many of which are already duplicated in Scotland and paid for from Scotland's block grant.

    For example, those General UK services include a share of the likes of maintenance costs for the likes of Buck House and Westminster Palace, the maintenance of around 1300 legislators in both houses of Parliament and 425,000 civil servants, and the likes of the Olympic Games in London...while at the same time, out of our pocket money, Scotland funds and maintains its own Parliament and Parliament building, and maintains its own legislators and civil service, plus pays out for our colonial Scottish Office....it funds the maintenance of Holyrood Palace, where the Queen regularly spends a week a year,in fact it funds the maintenance of all Scottish Historic Buildings...and the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow received not a penny of funding from the UK purse. It costs nearly 10 billion in administration costs to run Westminster departments...ten of which are, to a greater or lesser extent duplicated in the Scottish Government, and which, as a result, deal primarily with English versions of the competencies devolved to Scotland. We get precious few jobs in Scotland for our share of UK General Services and Government Administration costs, just as we get precious little benefit from our share of UK Debt Interest and our share of MOD expenditure.

    How are you going to take all your bases out of Scotland, out of interest? Are you going to bodily remove Fort George, Faslane, Kinloss, Leuchars, Lossie etc, etc (although, to give Westminster its due, it is selling as many Scottish military bases off as fast as it can...probably to spite us ). You can certainly take whichever servicemen want to go, and whatever equipment we can't claim as part of the distribution of assets, and you can have Trident with a red, white and blue bow on it as soon as you like.... but you can't take bases...else we will simply take some of those in England instead. What do people down South think would happen if we did leave the UK...do they really think we'd take a share of 1.3+ trillion in debt we had no hand in racking up.... and depart happily with nothing else....really and truly? The only way we'd leave with nothing is if we took no debt, though it would be a long time before the rest of the UK could stop funding state and private pensions, in the same way as they do now for people who have left the country and settled elsewhere.

    I don't for a second think it will be easy...but then it wasn't easy for very many of us living in the UK before Brexit...and is likely to be worse once it actually starts to bite...and I really can't see that we could make a worse job of looking after Scotland than the Westminster Parliament has. After 308 years of Union, if we are in an economic and social mess, who is to blame for that anyway....certainly not a Scottish Government(any Scottish Government of any colour since 1999,tbh) because no Scottish Government has had the tools to make a difference. Even after the much vaunted and hyped Scotland Act 2016 is completely in force, we will have direct control of 40.9% of our income(about 12% more of Scotland's income than was spent in/for Scotland in 1921...and around 10% less than was spent in 1952-53) with which we are expected to cover 63.1% of expenditure on the devolved competencies and some welfare benefits. We are getting some very limited by Westminster borrowing powers.....but unlike Westminster, we can't use those borrowing powers to pay for day to day spending.

    Why do you think we couldn't do at least as well as we do now if we don't have to follow Westminster policies, have access to all the same economic tools available to Westminster, don't have to make payments to General (once Imperial) Services to help fund what is in effect, since EVEL, an English Parliament mostly dealing with English issues and laws?

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Caithness
    Posts
    13,011

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mi16 View Post
    thats not what was said previously
    and who is to say all nations will vote us in
    never assume anything to assume makes an ass out of u and me
    There is no indication from the EU that they would veto an application from Scotland. As Scotland already ticks all the criteria for membership and it is already in the EU as part of the UK then I have no reason to doubt or assume otherwise. Scotland would be about mid table in terms of strength of GDP so I'm sure they would welcome us.
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Highlands
    Posts
    2,877

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    There is no indication from the EU that they would veto an application from Scotland. As Scotland already ticks all the criteria for membership and it is already in the EU as part of the UK then I have no reason to doubt or assume otherwise. Scotland would be about mid table in terms of strength of GDP so I'm sure they would welcome us.
    There is no indication from the EU that they would approve us, or fast track either.
    We will not be a member of the EU before we could gain independence from the UK.
    In all likelihood we would gain membership (but no guarantee) but we will need to adopt all the the rules and regs and currency.
    Also we will need to have a referendum to gain membership.
    And just because you are a YES voter, it does not necessarily follow that you are pro EU.
    I know some dies in the wool Nats that voted to leave EU.
    W.A.T.P.

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Caithness
    Posts
    13,011

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mi16 View Post
    There is no indication from the EU that they would approve us, or fast track either.
    We will not be a member of the EU before we could gain independence from the UK.
    In all likelihood we would gain membership (but no guarantee) but we will need to adopt all the the rules and regs and currency.
    Also we will need to have a referendum to gain membership.
    And just because you are a YES voter, it does not necessarily follow that you are pro EU.
    I know some dies in the wool Nats that voted to leave EU.
    There is a huge body of evidence to say the EU would accept us. I've seen many interviews on TV and social media from key European statespersons to say they are supportive but there is nothing we can do until we get that Yes vote. There have already been behind the scenes negotiations to put Scotland is a transitional status where it will maintain access to single market before full membership is approved.
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Highlands
    Posts
    2,877

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    There is a huge body of evidence to say the EU would accept us. I've seen many interviews on TV and social media from key European statespersons to say they are supportive but there is nothing we can do until we get that Yes vote. There have already been behind the scenes negotiations to put Scotland is a transitional status where it will maintain access to single market before full membership is approved.
    So nothing has been set in stone then, membership wise.
    Exactly as I said.
    Negotiations count for nothing, agreements do.
    I could negotiate with you to buy my bicycle 100m but until you sign a contract to do so then it means nothing whatsoever.
    W.A.T.P.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Caithness
    Posts
    13,011

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mi16 View Post
    So nothing has been set in stone then, membership wise.
    Exactly as I said.
    Negotiations count for nothing, agreements do.
    I could negotiate with you to buy my bicycle 100m but until you sign a contract to do so then it means nothing whatsoever.
    Negotiations mean a lot. The whole basis of democracy is on discussion. Even a verbal contract has some basis.
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Highlands
    Posts
    2,877

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    Negotiations mean a lot. The whole basis of democracy is on discussion. Even a verbal contract has some basis.
    Only if you have recorded it or have independent witness
    W.A.T.P.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •