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Thread: Scexit UK

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekisman View Post
    I do really find it hilarious about how Scotland 'voted to remain in EU', I well remember on Referendum night Dimbleby turning to Salmond and saying "turnout's quite low in Scotland Alex".. Well it certainly was! you've got the South West of England with a turnout of 76.67%, we then run through all the regions.. North West 69.99%.. London 69.63%.. North East 69.31% and then we have Scotland with a miserly 67.21% turnout, gosh, it was ONLY Northern Ireland with a lower turnout of 62.71% (why even the good ole Taffs came in with 71.7%!) so it's total nonsense to say the will of the Scottish people was to stay in EU?? duh!
    I must have missed the bit where it said in the referendum the different regions/parts of the UK were going to vote and the results were to say whether that area had a right to dictate about staying or going, silly me thought it was a UK vote of all eligible voters saying IN or OUT and a simple majority democratically won. For Christs sake !.
    Hating people because of their colour is wrong. And it doesn't matter which colour does the hating. It's just plain wrong.
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  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oddquine View Post
    Well duh, Rob....like the Boy Scouts, she is being prepared. A bill doesn't just get magicked out of thin air at a moment's notice,

    1)She has not said there will be an indy referendum before she sees how Brexit will impact on Scotland. She is certainly not saying it will be tomorrow or the next day or next month or next year..or even the next one....just that the option is there if it becomes necessary....and however much you object...she has been elected to make the decision as to what necessary means....that is democracy. It won't become necessary in the short term (ie in this Parliament) if May does sensible.

    2) At this Brexit vote an even bigger majority of Scots who voted voted to remain in the EU, compared to the indyref result.....is that not also democracy. Just think, Rob.... if the UK Government decided to let the whole UK vote in the next Scottish Referendum, and the only country/region to vote for Scottish Independence, by a big, even overwhelming, majority, was the Scots...would you be ignoring that result and refusing independence, because it is "democracy"?

    3) May does not represent the UK as a whole, and she doesn't even try.....she represents right-wing UK on a much smaller, and more polarised to specific areas, popular vote than than the SNP got in Scotland. And no Unionist Westminster government has ever represented me, because I have never voted for any one of them in my 50 years of voting.

    Let's be honest, if any political party in the UK tries to represent the whole population, it is the SNP.....because they HAVE to....as the second aim in their two aim constitution is the furtherance of all Scottish interests. If they are perceived to fail to do that, it harms their main aim. The others only need worry about furthering the interests of those who bank-roll them and those who vote for them, so all they really do in elections is produce policies to attract (or at least not scare away) the swing voters in around 29 constituencies(mostly the ones which are being checked out by the police for election fraud, in fact), while keeping their core support onside. The SNP, on the other hand, don't have the luxury of only talking to the converted.

    I dunno about problems with UDI....the Republic of Ireland managed it...and without a majority democratic vote ....and without taking any UK debt. It isn't my favoured option, but is definitely the option of last resort. A Declaration of UDI does not mean negotiations about division of assets and liabilities don't take place.....it just means they take place after the declaration and not before it. Anyway, we'd likely be OK without a share of UK debt and assets.....because what we'd need to set us up would cost us a lot less than our share of UK debt, given we have much of the infrastructure already in place..and we'd probably have no problem with foregoing assets as long as the rUK pays public and private pensions until nobody is left alive who has paid anything into the UK Treasury (that's a really big black hole right there for the UK if it is required to find it all at once) That would save us a whack over around 40 years. .

    4) She may have that right, but would she be so stupid...after all, everybody who voted for the SNP and pro-indy party's knew the indy2 possibility existed, (apart from the clue in the Party name, and constitution).....it was in their manifesto, loudly and clearly....and they were still elected on 46.5% of the popular vote in constituencies, compared to the Tories in England who had a mandate from only 38.6% of the whole UK electorate to hold the Brexit referendum.

    Of course, The SG could always have an advisory referendum to prove there is a desire for independence...couldn't they? Afaik, Thatcher said (when she thought it would never happen) that if we ever had a majority of SNP MPs in parliament, we didn't need a referendum. If we had believed that the way you lot believe Alex Salmond spoke for the SNP and all pro-indy people when he gave his personal opinion that the indyref was a once in a lifetime occurrence, we'd have declared UDI after the 2015 GE....but we're not daft enough to think a throw-away remark by even the head of a government is agreed policy.

    5) Is it all bluff anyway? I do agree she has to see which way the wind blows....which is why she has set out red lines...did you notice them? They are actually quite reasonable and surmountable lines....but I suspect she does not really expect any Westminster Government, which knocked back 120 reasonable amendments to the Scotland Act 2016, supported by every Scottish MP bar Mundell, to do reasonable. (If as May says, she is triggering a hard Brexit in March 2017, I suspect an indyref will be towards the end of 2018 to be within the window before the UK is formally out of the EU.....but if she plays sensible and guarantees Scotland gets what the SG thinks will help Scotland weather the fall-out, that would probably put an indyref back....until May emulates Cameron and fails to deliver)

    6) I was thinking more of the Soviet Union sending in the tanks, tbh (though I was only kidding)...after all the UK doesn't have enough tanks any more to send them into the streets of Glasgow again to threaten the Scots who have unwelcome opinions.

    6a)You are always harping on about central control...but what you always seem to forget is that it is very possible, if it is such anathema to the Scottish population, that it can vote the SNP out every four years.....and you also seem to forget that many who vote for the SNP are well aware that centralisation, while not ideal, is a way of reducing costs at the top (the most expensive ones) so the savings can be spent elsewhere .

    Can't say I have ever noticed you railing about the fact that the Scottish Police and Fire Service pay VAT while English equivalents do not, adding to their costs; Or commenting that centralisation of both in England has been mooted to save money (so maybe the idea wasn't all bad); Or that, despite Scotland pleading for the Foreign Student right to stay post graduation rules to be resurrected for Scotland. it has been resurrected....but only for Oxford, Cambridge , Bath and Imperial College London.....in a country which voted to leave the EU because there are too many foreigners....(go figure!) But, hey....Scotland can safely be ignored, can't it...we just roll over and take it, don't we?

    You know, Rob, the people who won't let it go are Unionists, not the SNP or even pro-indy people. On the day Nicola made one mention of independence in a FM questions.....Ruthie, Kez and Willie Rennie etc got five rants in about independence, and not a lot about what the SNP was doing in order to hold them to account. Sure we pro-indy people talk to each other on FB....but so do the Unionists on the same subject.

    If you check out this forum since the indyref....the majority of posts are by yourself and Better Together, or others who "came out" as no voters, either gloating about oil/Scottish finances etc or making remarks about the SNP on SNP BAD lines, and throwing independence into the mix just because you could. Most of us pro-indy people are getting on with just getting along......and we rarely initiate posts regarding independence,(because that is not a current issue)...or even the Westminster government on here. Count the posts....count the ones which didn't start as being anything about the SNP or independence, but ended up being about one, the other or both anyway......though I do have to admit that since the cutting the sock head off Better Together, there aren't as many as there used to be.

    Most of the "talk about independence" is us responding to unionists starting the conversation....so who is really "not letting it go"?
    Whew ! Well what can I say !
    Last edited by rob murray; 18-Oct-16 at 11:50. Reason: I give in

  3. #23

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    Lets get one thing clear I never gloated on oil price drop as you say, and made it very very clear on here that this wasn't anything to do with the SNP. How you can say independence is not a current issue is totally beyond me, Orwellian double speak ?

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob murray View Post
    Lets get one thing clear I never gloated on oil price drop as you say, and made it very very clear on here that this wasn't anything to do with the SNP. How you can say independence is not a current issue is totally beyond me, Orwellian double speak ?
    Re-read your post "Oil Price" of 18/12/2014, and " Oil-the denial stops now" of 18/6/2015, or "The SNP : FFA / OIL Revenue Sham Exposed At Last : The Dream Is Dead" of 25/6/2015...and then come back and tell me you were not gloating.

    Sure independence is a current issue.....I didn't say it wasn't....but it wasn't a current issue until Brexit, given the 2014 referendum result......and what I actually said was Most of the "talk about independence" is us responding to unionists starting the conversation....so who is really "not letting it go"? We didn't start threads like "Referedum mark 2" on 27/7/2015, "Possible secondf referedum" on 14/9/2015 and "Swinney : Indy Gradualist Indy Approach" on 24/3/2016...and that isn't even counting all the SNP bad posts, yours and others, which usually manage to get the indy word, and often the oil one in there somewhere as well.....so who are the ones not letting it go?

  5. #25

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    I don't see why people should 'let it go' when She Who Must Be Obeyed keeps on pronouncing on the subject! It's not as though it isn't of VITAL importance to all of us, so why shouldn't we talk about it?

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oddquine View Post
    Re-read your post "Oil Price" of 18/12/2014, and " Oil-the denial stops now" of 18/6/2015, or "The SNP : FFA / OIL Revenue Sham Exposed At Last : The Dream Is Dead" of 25/6/2015...and then come back and tell me you were not gloating.

    Sure independence is a current issue.....I didn't say it wasn't....but it wasn't a current issue until Brexit, given the 2014 referendum result......and what I actually said was Most of the "talk about independence" is us responding to unionists starting the conversation....so who is really "not letting it go"? We didn't start threads like "Referedum mark 2" on 27/7/2015, "Possible secondf referedum" on 14/9/2015 and "Swinney : Indy Gradualist Indy Approach" on 24/3/2016...and that isn't even counting all the SNP bad posts, yours and others, which usually manage to get the indy word, and often the oil one in there somewhere as well.....so who are the ones not letting it go?
    I did, Im not, bye bye ta ta
    Last edited by rob murray; 21-Oct-16 at 12:45.

  7. #27
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    At what point do the people of Scotland realise that the ambitions for Scotland do not match the ambitions of the rest of the UK? Why would the people of Scotland allow their country to be ruled in a way that is disagreeable?
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    At what point do the people of Scotland realise that the ambitions for Scotland do not match the ambitions of the rest of the UK? Why would the people of Scotland allow their country to be ruled in a way that is disagreeable?
    That depends if folk are thinking with their head or heart, do they want the benefit of the Uk with all that goes with it including beneficial treatment with the "barnet formula" or the certainty/uncertainty of being a minority of one member against all of the EU with all the rules regulations being dished out by non-elected officials. There are numerous ways to look at your question including borders and being able to cross non EU countries to do trade with the EU states as it is not pointed out how much goes North overland at present but I suppose everything could go by shipping via Scottish ports. I personally have not the knowledge to make a decision with my head but my heart says go for it and quickly.
    Hating people because of their colour is wrong. And it doesn't matter which colour does the hating. It's just plain wrong.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonkatojo View Post
    That depends if folk are thinking with their head or heart, do they want the benefit of the Uk with all that goes with it including beneficial treatment with the "barnet formula" or the certainty/uncertainty of being a minority of one member against all of the EU with all the rules regulations being dished out by non-elected officials. There are numerous ways to look at your question including borders and being able to cross non EU countries to do trade with the EU states as it is not pointed out how much goes North overland at present but I suppose everything could go by shipping via Scottish ports. I personally have not the knowledge to make a decision with my head but my heart says go for it and quickly.
    Why is the Barnet formula a benefit? It sounds like Scotland is a scrounger, we are on benefits, lol.

    Seriously though, as i understand it, the Barnet formula is calculated using expenditure patterns and practices per person in England, so it seems to me that it is pretty restrictve if the Scottish government want to prioritise something for the 'benefit' of the people in Scotland. For instance, if there was an increased difference due to the amount of privatisation in the health service in England then there would be a reduced Barnett Formula grant to Scotland based upon privatisation in the English NHS. That would force the Scottish government to consider extra privatisation against the wishes of the Scottish people. I say that arrangement is not in the best interests of the Scottish people and the Barnett formula is actually a hinderance rather than a benefit.
    Last edited by Rheghead; 23-Oct-16 at 11:14.
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
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    And wisdom to know the difference.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    Why is the Barnet formula a benefit? It sounds like Scotland is a scrounger, we are on benefits, lol.

    Seriously though, as i understand it, the Barnet formula is calculated using expenditure patterns and practices per person in England, so it seems to me that it is pretty restrictve if the Scottish government want to prioritise something for the 'benefit' of the people in Scotland. For instance, if there was an increased difference due to the amount of privatisation in the health service in England then there would be a reduced Barnett Formula grant to Scotland based upon privatisation in the English NHS. That would force the Scottish government to consider extra privatisation against the wishes of the Scottish people. I say that arrangement is not in the best interests of the Scottish people and the Barnett formula is actually a hinderance rather than a benefit.

    Make your mind up either it is (a benefit) beneficial or not as your statement above says , if you can work out the formula you are a far more intelligent person than me but the block grant figures speak for themselves. I note the silence regarding the other points or is there no jokes to be made regarding them.
    Hating people because of their colour is wrong. And it doesn't matter which colour does the hating. It's just plain wrong.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonkatojo View Post
    Make your mind up either it is (a benefit) beneficial or not as your statement above says , if you can work out the formula you are a far more intelligent person than me but the block grant figures speak for themselves. I note the silence regarding the other points or is there no jokes to be made regarding them.
    I don't think it is a benefit to Scotland. What benefit is there in making out Scotland to be a scrounger? Scots pay more than they receive back in the block grant anyway so why are we subsidising the rest of the UK when we can spend our money on what is best for Scotland?
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    I don't think it is a benefit to Scotland. What benefit is there in making out Scotland to be a scrounger? Scots pay more than they receive back in the block grant anyway so why are we subsidising the rest of the UK when we can spend our money on what is best for Scotland?
    The "Benefit" is where you get an advantage over the rest of the UK, your playing games regarding the word. regarding paying more than receiving I don't think so, perhaps years ago but not the now. Frankly I do not care who benefits more, this futile discussion has no bearing on the subject of Brexit, but it is high time a decision was made regarding the continuation of UK membership and accept the result and not keep on chucking toys out the pram stamping feet and pointless threats of I want a new referendum every other year it is wearing thin, other parts of the UK do not give a toss whether Scotland stays or goes and no the wonder.
    Last edited by tonkatojo; 23-Oct-16 at 19:11. Reason: more text
    Hating people because of their colour is wrong. And it doesn't matter which colour does the hating. It's just plain wrong.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonkatojo View Post
    The "Benefit" is where you get an advantage over the rest of the UK, your playing games regarding the word. regarding paying more than receiving I don't think so, perhaps years ago but not the now.
    I believe it still is the case and always will be that Scotland is paying more than it receives back in the block grant. I think we need an honest and open debate about it but I don't think we will achieve it. I live in hope though. Everything needs to be included and accounted for in the discussion. For example, Scots pay more tax through via drink, tobacco and transport excise. That sort of tax is not generally accounted for in those calculations.
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
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    And wisdom to know the difference.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    I believe it still is the case and always will be that Scotland is paying more than it receives back in the block grant. I think we need an honest and open debate about it but I don't think we will achieve it. I live in hope though. Everything needs to be included and accounted for in the discussion. For example, Scots pay more tax through via drink, tobacco and transport excise. That sort of tax is not generally accounted for in those calculations.
    Your talking rubbish, 53 million people live in England while 5.422 million live in Scotland how can the Scotts pay more tax into the pot via drink, tobacco, transport, or any other commodity.
    Last edited by tonkatojo; 23-Oct-16 at 20:52.
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  15. #35
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    alas a sensible discussion has failed to materialise.
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
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    And wisdom to know the difference.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    alas a sensible discussion has failed to materialise.

    Your probably correct.
    Hating people because of their colour is wrong. And it doesn't matter which colour does the hating. It's just plain wrong.
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  17. #37
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    What is really frustrating is that there is a clear north/south divide in personal wealth in the UK. But wealth is getting generated in Scotland fairly consistent with the rest of the UK but the instruments of Union are sucking the wealth out of Scotland.

    http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk...nds-wealth-go/
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    What is really frustrating is that there is a clear north/south divide in personal wealth in the UK. But wealth is getting generated in Scotland fairly consistent with the rest of the UK but the instruments of Union are sucking the wealth out of Scotland.

    http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk...nds-wealth-go/
    Instead of whinging on here get the public to back the SNP and get out of the union, as Sturgeon says "I am not bluffing" well Wow I bet the English population will be losing loads of sleep now and panicking close to riot with such a threat. She is going about her referendum the wrong way, she should be pushing for a UK wide referendum on the subject to guarantee it, as I cannot see the majority of the Scottish public voting for it. Then the Scots can keep all of their generated wealth to finance all of its expenditure and debt. Probably the rest of the UK should be voting to go their separate ways when the referendum happens it will put an end to the excuses infighting claims of inequality and the I want for my country cries forever coming since devolved governments were formed.
    Why this is not on the agenda beats me.
    Last edited by tonkatojo; 25-Oct-16 at 09:41. Reason: gramma
    Hating people because of their colour is wrong. And it doesn't matter which colour does the hating. It's just plain wrong.
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  19. #39
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    Hopefully not too far off topic, but really nice to see that the SNP government and Westminster are in FULL agreement; Heathrow it is! hopefully ALL the MSP's of various parties will support the SNP?
    "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped."

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonkatojo View Post
    Instead of whinging on here get the public to back the SNP and get out of the union, as Sturgeon says "I am not bluffing" well Wow I bet the English population will be losing loads of sleep now and panicking close to riot with such a threat. She is going about her referendum the wrong way, she should be pushing for a UK wide referendum on the subject to guarantee it, as I cannot see the majority of the Scottish public voting for it. Then the Scots can keep all of their generated wealth to finance all of its expenditure and debt. Probably the rest of the UK should be voting to go their separate ways when the referendum happens it will put an end to the excuses infighting claims of inequality and the I want for my country cries forever coming since devolved governments were formed.
    Why this is not on the agenda beats me.
    The tory governmemnt don't want Scotland to go because we are ploughing more than our fair share of cash into the UK coffers, they're not looking at this Scottish gift horse in the mouth.

    What beats me is that virtually all economists and financial advisers were warning that Brexit will harm the markets and the UK's ability to generate enough income to pay off the debt. you don't give up your day job when you've got to pay off the mortgage. There has been nothing evident that has proved those fforecasts wrong. It is just crazy the brexit world we live in.
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

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