1K.Orger
Independance Referendum "everyone will respect"
Just seen Salmon wittering on about another 'independence referendum', so had a look at the actual Edinburgh Agreement (link at bottom), just a couple of years have passed and his agreeing to "A result that everyone will respect" shows conclusively what a liar he is, he is NOT a man of his word, he has not respected in anyway the result. But I suppose the SNP's raison d'etre is to get independence at any costs.. the mere fact of honesty, integrity just goes out of the window - one wonders where this minority government will be in a few years..
Edinburgh, 15 October 2012
The United Kingdom Government and the Scottish Government have agreed to work together to ensure that a referendum on Scottish independence can take place.
The governments are agreed that the referendum should:
- have a clear legal base
- be legislated for by the Scottish Parliament
- be conducted so as to command the confidence of parliaments, governments and people
- deliver a fair test and a decisive expression of the views of people in Scotland and a result that everyone will respect
http://www.gov.scot/About/Government...n-independence
"Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped."
1K.Orger
IN 2014 the case for indy was laid out in a document of over 600 pages spelling out the many ways Scotland would be allegedly better off alone, fair play to SNP on at least giving the detail, now the case for independence is simply to be independent/ gain independence for the sole purpose of being independent, all pretense of any gains from being independence have been dropped !!!Originally Posted by bekisman
1K.Orger
Two years on from the referendum on Scottish independence, Nicola Sturgeon used an article in the Sunday Herald to set out the case for another vote.
The First Minister argued “the case for full self-government ultimately transcends the issues of Brexit, of oil, of national wealth and balance sheets and of passing political fads and trends”. SO independence for independence sake, afterall what more can you expect from a nationalist party.
Interestingly Salmon is trying to bounce STurgeon into calling indy 2 in 2018, more cautious SNP MSP's suggest holding out until 2020 next general election, to see the tory government post brexit landscape, so a lot of water has to flow until then, and a lot can go right or wrong for SNP but if the hard liners are trumpeting indy for indys sake then even if they have a vote in 2020 sanity will prevail scots have proved they are more cautious than to vote indy for indys sake !
Last edited by rob murray; 19-Sep-16 at 10:49.
1K.Orger
Why would anyone respect the result of a referendum which was not undertaken by the Better Together crowd in a spirit of honesty and integrity? Much the same can be said of the result of the EU referendum as well. The YES side was maybe over optimistic in its ideas of how grown-up the Westminster Government would be in the event of success....not so different, in fact from the Brexit side's over optimistic assumption that we can get a deal with the EU which will let us dictate our terms and change nothing but the number of EU immigrants.
What most of us YES voters remember about what was said and what happened is that the status quo, which was voted for in the indyref no longer exists and the promises made have not been fulfilled.
When a campaign has been fought on cries of "the only way to stay in the EU is to vote NO", and even that ever-so truthful Carmichael said "There is no question of a referendum[on the EU]. There is no mechanism for the Conservatives to deliver a referendum in 2017. That is the hard political fact"...the Brexit vote alone has changed the status quo for which we voted.
What about "our UK Welfare state offers better protection for pensioners, the disabled and unemployed". How has that worked out for those on zero hours contracts, the disabled losing their mobility cars, the terminally ill being obliged to work until they die, those who committed suicide due to the sanctions regime, the increase in the numbers using foodbanks (which are just about the only growth industry in the UK atm.) etc? How has that worked out for a Scottish Government having to use a limited income to try to ameliorate the effects of Government benefit decisions on Scots?
And what about pensions...remember the "our pensions are safer and more secure within the UK"? Followed almost immediately after the result with headlines like "new pension crisis on the way", "pension crisis to last for 20 years", "pension shock for millions", "death of the decent pension", "betrayed by pension reforms" and of course the "now it's work to 75" and even "keep on working until you are 80".
What about "being part of the UK is good for the Scottish renewables industry" and "our larger energy market makes supporting Scotland's renewable industry more affordable", given the subsequent subsidy cuts? And what is fair in an "equal partnership" when power producers in Scotland get charged
to access the grid and power producers in the south get paid to do so?
And then we get to "defence industry jobs are best protected by remaining in the UK"...resulting in Scotland getting the deepest military service cuts in the UK...plus the promised frigate contracts for the Clyde being first cut and now put on the back burner..and the proposed sale of the Kinloss army base and of Fort George....rather than the promised increase in the numbers at Kinloss?
And jobs...let's talk about jobs....do you remember the "protect jobs:vote NO" banners, or the graphics produced by Better Together proclaiming "I'm voting NO to protect our NHS, our pensions and our jobs" and the oft repeated statement that Scotland had to have "the broad shoulders" of the UK to support it? So where was the UK when what was left of the steel industry entered its death throes and when the oil industry shed jobs by the thousands? Remember the "1400 jobs in HMRC in Cumbernauld are dependent on us staying in the UK" and the current modernisation of HMRC which will, by 2020 have closed most of their offices in Scotland removing a couple of thousand jobs....which appear to be going to be shipped to Croydon. But of course they still support 520 jobs at Faslane coddling the "nuclear deterrent" at great cost....and other job losses are just fine, as the UK shoulders obviously aren't broad enough to support everything.
Then what about that Vow? you know...the one which turned out to be nothing like "a modern form of home rule"....the one which got through Westminster giving little of use or ornament, just more to pay out with no more coming in to pay it, without raising taxes or cutting other services...the one the SNP, the Labour MP and the LibDem MP tabled 120 amendments to improve, only to have them all defeated by the Unionist parties.
And the love-bombing! Do you remember the love bombing.....the legion of "celebrities" pleading for us not to leave? And Cameron in the Daily Fail saying "We desperately want you to stay."....only to turn up after we voted for the status quo to tell us that he was introducing EVEL (a cheap way to have an English Parliament without having to pay for more MPs, civil servants and the necessary buildings, as Scotland, Wales and NI have to do)...when pretty much all of the "English only" laws equating to those devolved to Scotland, have Barnett consequences.
So three years on, the status quo we voted for no longer exists....so why should we respect the result?
Did the Westminster Government itself respect all their weasel words?
Do we live in a UK in which we are remaining in the EU,in which the UK Government is protecting our jobs generally, and in the renewable and military defence industries in particular? Do we live in a UK where the the age of retirement hasn't been increased, with more increases in the pipeline, where the terminally ill and disabled are permitted to have a life without the stress of trying to find a scarce job, where people don't end up using foodbanks because sanctions, often for as little as being a few minutes late for an "appointment" have removed their income? Do we live in a country where we are "equal partners" in a Union, rather than, as now, an unwelcome addition to the English Parliament...and in which it is unlikely that a Scottish constituency MP will ever be PM...or even in the Cabinet, given the EVEL rule which would mean they couldn't vote on the laws they are instrumental in introducing, if they are deemed by English MPs to be "English only applicable"
Bet JK Rowling is glad we don't expect her to produce anything but fiction, when she said "My guess is that, if we vote to stay, we will be in the heady position of the spouse who looked like walking out, but decided to give things one last go. I doubt whether we will ever have been more popular, or in a better position to dictate terms, than if we vote to stay" Aye, right!
So explain to me why what has come to pass since the NO vote is a situation to be respected?
1K.Orger
You make good points and yes the landscape has changed dramatically, if the oil price was at an 2014 $100 plus a barrel, then given Brexit alone, never mind the undelivered promises and misrule you allude to, I would have expected indy2 asap as the SNP would be in a powerful position, but its not turning out that way , so assuming everything you've written is correct the fiscal sums dont add up at the moment,the economic timing is out, revenues are down and cuts are a comming. If what you say is accurate then why is the "cautious" wing of the SNP waiting until at least 2020 to instigate indy2, if things are so bad, why not go the Salmon route, indy 2 in 2018 why wait until a tory victory in 2020 (thats the tactics being adopted ) and progress indy2 on the fact that we will be ruled by a party which does not reflect Scotland's landscape. Oh..and both sides in 2014 "lied" just as both sides lied in the EU referendum, so yep indy2 will come in time, but lets have a truthful engagement this time around, and respect its outcome whatever it maybe.Why would anyone respect the result of a referendum which was not undertaken by the Better Together crowd in a spirit of honesty and integrity? Much the same can be said of the result of the EU referendum as well. The YES side was maybe over optimistic in its ideas of how grown-up the Westminster Government would be in the event of success....not so different, in fact from the Brexit side's over optimistic assumption that we can get a deal with the EU which will let us dictate our terms and change nothing but the number of EU immigrants.
What most of us YES voters remember about what was said and what happened is that the status quo, which was voted for in the indyref no longer exists and the promises made have not been fulfilled.
When a campaign has been fought on cries of "the only way to stay in the EU is to vote NO", and even that ever-so truthful Carmichael said "There is no question of a referendum[on the EU]. There is no mechanism for the Conservatives to deliver a referendum in 2017. That is the hard political fact"...the Brexit vote alone has changed the status quo for which we voted.
What about "our UK Welfare state offers better protection for pensioners, the disabled and unemployed". How has that worked out for those on zero hours contracts, the disabled losing their mobility cars, the terminally ill being obliged to work until they die, those who committed suicide due to the sanctions regime, the increase in the numbers using foodbanks (which are just about the only growth industry in the UK atm.) etc? How has that worked out for a Scottish Government having to use a limited income to try to ameliorate the effects of Government benefit decisions on Scots?
And what about pensions...remember the "our pensions are safer and more secure within the UK"? Followed almost immediately after the result with headlines like "new pension crisis on the way", "pension crisis to last for 20 years", "pension shock for millions", "death of the decent pension", "betrayed by pension reforms" and of course the "now it's work to 75" and even "keep on working until you are 80".
What about "being part of the UK is good for the Scottish renewables industry" and "our larger energy market makes supporting Scotland's renewable industry more affordable", given the subsequent subsidy cuts? And what is fair in an "equal partnership" when power producers in Scotland get charged
to access the grid and power producers in the south get paid to do so?
And then we get to "defence industry jobs are best protected by remaining in the UK"...resulting in Scotland getting the deepest military service cuts in the UK...plus the promised frigate contracts for the Clyde being first cut and now put on the back burner..and the proposed sale of the Kinloss army base and of Fort George....rather than the promised increase in the numbers at Kinloss?
And jobs...let's talk about jobs....do you remember the "protect jobs:vote NO" banners, or the graphics produced by Better Together proclaiming "I'm voting NO to protect our NHS, our pensions and our jobs" and the oft repeated statement that Scotland had to have "the broad shoulders" of the UK to support it? So where was the UK when what was left of the steel industry entered its death throes and when the oil industry shed jobs by the thousands? Remember the "1400 jobs in HMRC in Cumbernauld are dependent on us staying in the UK" and the current modernisation of HMRC which will, by 2020 have closed most of their offices in Scotland removing a couple of thousand jobs....which appear to be going to be shipped to Croydon. But of course they still support 520 jobs at Faslane coddling the "nuclear deterrent" at great cost....and other job losses are just fine, as the UK shoulders obviously aren't broad enough to support everything.
Then what about that Vow? you know...the one which turned out to be nothing like "a modern form of home rule"....the one which got through Westminster giving little of use or ornament, just more to pay out with no more coming in to pay it, without raising taxes or cutting other services...the one the SNP, the Labour MP and the LibDem MP tabled 120 amendments to improve, only to have them all defeated by the Unionist parties.
And the love-bombing! Do you remember the love bombing.....the legion of "celebrities" pleading for us not to leave? And Cameron in the Daily Fail saying "We desperately want you to stay."....only to turn up after we voted for the status quo to tell us that he was introducing EVEL (a cheap way to have an English Parliament without having to pay for more MPs, civil servants and the necessary buildings, as Scotland, Wales and NI have to do)...when pretty much all of the "English only" laws equating to those devolved to Scotland, have Barnett consequences.
So three years on, the status quo we voted for no longer exists....so why should we respect the result?
Did the Westminster Government itself respect all their weasel words?
Do we live in a UK in which we are remaining in the EU,in which the UK Government is protecting our jobs generally, and in the renewable and military defence industries in particular? Do we live in a UK where the the age of retirement hasn't been increased, with more increases in the pipeline, where the terminally ill and disabled are permitted to have a life without the stress of trying to find a scarce job, where people don't end up using foodbanks because sanctions, often for as little as being a few minutes late for an "appointment" have removed their income? Do we live in a country where we are "equal partners" in a Union, rather than, as now, an unwelcome addition to the English Parliament...and in which it is unlikely that a Scottish constituency MP will ever be PM...or even in the Cabinet, given the EVEL rule which would mean they couldn't vote on the laws they are instrumental in introducing, if they are deemed by English MPs to be "English only applicable"
Bet JK Rowling is glad we don't expect her to produce anything but fiction, when she said "My guess is that, if we vote to stay, we will be in the heady position of the spouse who looked like walking out, but decided to give things one last go. I doubt whether we will ever have been more popular, or in a better position to dictate terms, than if we vote to stay" Aye, right!
So explain to me why what has come to pass since the NO vote is a situation to be respected?
1K.Orger
We will know the post Brexit landscape fully within next 4/5 years, so 2020 as a minimum for indy2 is sensible anything sooner is just reckless, and indy2 will be fought on how different an EU (once we're in ) Scotland will look like / measure up against continuing involvement in the new UK landscape. The best of 2 bad choices as I see it 1 Stay in a tory dominated ( thanks Corbynistas !!! ) UK or 2 Get out and eventually ( once we get in ) surrender key fiscal based policy powers to the EU and European Central bank.
1K.Orger
SNP MSP 's qoutes : "We have to be really careful and not rush this. It's unlikely we'll get what we want from the Brexit process but we have to build a solid economic case for independence among those who voted No in 2014. That looks like a second referendum after 2020. The polls show they're not there yet. The bottom line is: we can't afford to lose another one." So why is Sturgeon comming out with the indy for indys sake arguement when more informed party MSP's obviously see the battleground as being fought on the economic case Sturgeon ( yet again ) the case for full self-government ultimately transcends the issues of Brexit, of oil, of national wealth and balance sheets and of passing political fads and trends”. SO independence for independence sake, after all what more can you expect from a nationalist party.....IS this a case of throwing red meat to the committed yessers if so thats no way to make converts, she's sounding more Salmon like by the day !
1K.Orger
Oddquine, sorry fell asleep reading your dirge, burble as much as you like, not fair, boo hoo etc etc bottom line:
- deliver a fair test and a decisive expression of the views of people in Scotland and a result that everyone will respect
Just seen Salmon wittering on about another 'independence referendum', so had a look at the actual Edinburgh Agreement (link at bottom), just a couple of years have passed and his agreeing to "A result that everyone will respect" shows conclusively what a liar he is, he is NOT a man of his word, he has not respected in anyway the result. But I suppose the SNP's raison d'etre is to get independence at any costs.. the mere fact of honesty, integrity just goes out of the window - one wonders where this minority government will be in a few years..
Oh yes just seen this:
An SNP MP Joanna Cherry has been criticised for defending a comedy rap group's use of the word "dyke" to describe Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson.The Witserface group referred to Ms Davidson, who is openly gay, as "Dykey D" at the launch of a pro-independence organisation at the weekend. Oh come on grow up!!!!!
Last edited by bekisman; 19-Sep-16 at 18:27.
"Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped."
1K.Orger
It would depend on how long it takes to trigger article 50 and how the negotiations are going. I suspect if the UK gets the deal they are claiming they are going to get, which seems little short of all the EU benefits without any of the costs...like freedom of movement, following EU laws, and having to hand over money, it won't happen until we see how it goes.
Can you see the Tories going into next year's council elections without having triggered Brexit, because I can't...as the Brexiteers will surely punish them at the ballot box. so a May 2017 trigger would make it more like before mid 2019. At least there is the blessing that it won't be a two year high profile campaign, though likely a low-key one from now to whenever....and one I'm hoping won't produce another tome like the White Paper....the activists won't have time to read it.
But how things change in a couple of years....in 2014, Mundell was saying "Leaving the EU would be an absolute disaster for Scotland" and now he is saying " Brexit has amazing possibilities for Scotland." I think politicians are a bit like weather vanes which move with the prevailing wind.
1K.Orger
What key fiscal based policy powers do we hand to the EU and European Central Bank? I've heard this time and again, but I have never been able to find anything bar indirect taxation, which is considered necessary to harmonise competition.....and we can veto changes to that anyway.
1K.Orger
If deficit > 3% then Central Bank / EU can enforce austerity / cuts so as to get the deficit within the 3% indirectly directing policies...like Greece for example well thats my understanding
1K.Orger
WOuld agree with the weather vanes bit, but we both have to agree that an economic case has to be built prior to indy, indy for indys sake is a death wish for SNP surely ?It would depend on how long it takes to trigger article 50 and how the negotiations are going. I suspect if the UK gets the deal they are claiming they are going to get, which seems little short of all the EU benefits without any of the costs...like freedom of movement, following EU laws, and having to hand over money, it won't happen until we see how it goes.
Can you see the Tories going into next year's council elections without having triggered Brexit, because I can't...as the Brexiteers will surely punish them at the ballot box. so a May 2017 trigger would make it more like before mid 2019. At least there is the blessing that it won't be a two year high profile campaign, though likely a low-key one from now to whenever....and one I'm hoping won't produce another tome like the White Paper....the activists won't have time to read it.
But how things change in a couple of years....in 2014, Mundell was saying "Leaving the EU would be an absolute disaster for Scotland" and now he is saying " Brexit has amazing possibilities for Scotland." I think politicians are a bit like weather vanes which move with the prevailing wind.
1K.Orger
just in case anyone (SNP?) forgets:
14 September 2014 Last updated at 10:05 BST
SNP leader Alex Salmond has said the Scottish referendum is a "once in a generation opportunity".
Speaking to Andrew Marr he said that a simple majority, however close, would be accepted by both sides in the campaign and there would be a "generational" gap before another independence referendum. (Blinking heck how fast do these nationalist breed ???!!!
"Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped."
1K.Orger
the case for full self-government ultimately transcends the issues of Brexit, of oil, of national wealth and balance sheets and of passing political fads and trends”. INdy for indys sake the real honest face of the SNP..... the SNP's raison d'etre at least we all know where we stand now
1K.Orger
eg The EU central bank can set / influence monetary policy
1K.Orger
We dont hand them over, they go as part of joining as well as adopting the euro, no exceptions and Scotland doenst have the economic clout to extract any concessions over joining terms
1K.Orger
I accept the point that things have changed drastically since 2014 with BREXIT and if SNP were genuine I would see their case for arguing for indy2 but STurgeon has said its indy for indys sake, so forget about BREXIT, its been indy for indy all along
.Orger
Bottom line.......perhaps you might have learned something if you had stayed awake?
So, this would be the Lesbian SNP MP who "was not offended" by a sketch written by a Lesbian and then presented by another Lesbian, referring to yet another Lesbian? These Lesbians nowadays sure are Homophobic!!!! I think I know who should grow up.
1K.Orger
None the less I acknowledge that the SNP are working on an indy2 white paper that will spell out how an independent Scotland could operate a growing economy and answer the question as to what currency the country would use. So I'm passing no comments until the gist is made public, then fair debate should commence.
1K.Orger
Only for countries in the EuroZone. The UK is not in the EuroZone....and a post independence Scotland doesn't have to be either....all they have to do is not meet the criteria....like a few other EU countries haven't for years.
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