Dairy products are causing cancer.

[Goodfellers]

Please refrain from feeding the troll folks

Sorry, was posting last reply when this request popped up!

[sids]

Please refrain from feeding the troll folks

No-one tells me what to do.

Even if they ask nicely with "please."

[Rheghead]

As we live in a democratic country, everyone, including vegetarians, should be free to eat what ever they want. Almost everyone is aware of the risks associated with eating various foods. As I mentioned in an earlier post some very intelligent people choose to smoke. Why?

The difference between you and I, is that I am happy for you to eat vegetables, I will not try to dissuade you. on the other hand, you are never going to give up trying to make meat/dairy eaters feel somehow inferior.

As this is a democratic forum you are free to keep posting your findings. Good luck with the crusade but I do think you need to widen your horizons and post on UK wide boards as you do not seem to have won many fans here. Accepted some may read and not comment, but as I said earlier, there doesn't seem to be much vocal support for your views.

I will always believe that if animals are raised and slaughtered in a humane/compassionate way then there is nothing wrong with that. From my experience, animals have no idea they are going to slaughter. Have you noticed, as a general rule, we as humans only eat 'prey' animals, not the 'hunter' animals. just an observation.

I'll ask again...

Firstly, in attempt to seek common ground for discussion, do you agree that it is reasonable that people should be demanding food choices that are better for their health, the environment and animal welfare? And do you see that a reduced meat and dairy intake as part of that solution?

[Rheghead]

Please refrain from feeding the troll folks

You've just given birth to a new kind of troll who is polite, assertive against the abuse and who , raises awareness about a healthier, environmentally friendlier and ethically sound lifestyle and who provides scientific resources to back up the claim. If that is being a troll then I am proud to be one. Thanks. x

[Goodfellers]

I think both our views are well documented on here. you will not alter my beliefs and I am sure you are set in your ways. Lets leave it at that.

[sids]

do you agree that it is reasonable that people should be demanding food choices that are better for their health, the environment and animal welfare?

Definitely not. People should either buy their "food choices" or raise it themselves.

Demand food indeed! Is that what you do? Do you not earn your living and pay your way, fair and square?

[Rheghead]

Definitely not. People should either buy their "food choices" or raise it themselves.

Demand food indeed! Is that what you do? Do you not earn your living and pay your way, fair and square?

What is wrong with wanting food that is nourishing, healthy, kinder to the environment and the animals? It seems to me that just eating plants fits the bill on all fronts. Why would you be opposed to others wanting those constraints on their food?

[sids]

Why would you be opposed to others wanting those constraints on their food?

It's not a constraint if they want it. Why don't you talk sense, in some sort of normal, propaganda-free language?

Oh- because you're a crank.

[Rheghead]

It's not a constraint if they want it. Why don't you talk sense, in some sort of normal, propaganda-free language?

Oh- because you're a crank.

Thanks pal.

[Rheghead]

I watched Countryfile tonight. A sheep farmer reported that they were preserving the landscape by having sheep to graze the land. Otherwise without sheep the land would be scrub within 5 years and within 50 years the land would be woodland. It seems to me that farmers agree with what I am saying.

[Hannah Faulkner]

I don`t think so there is a problem with dairy... According to latest researches the most dominant causes of cancer is the increased used of processed food, plastics and microwaves in our daily lives

[Goodfellers]

I only care about the planet and its habitats and ecosystems, the health of the human race and welfare of animals. Farming animals is the biggest cause of loss of biodiversity.

If we all went vegan gradually (not overnight) there will eventually be no livestock in the fields and then the land will return to a natural landscape which would be rich in wildlife. There will be no profit in keeping the land looking like a farm. The butterflies of meadows will return. We would see animals living naturally in the wild, predator vs prey, it will be a rich and rewarding landscape to enjoy. They would have plenty of land to roam, unhindered by humans. Our planet would be much healthier, we could stabilise the rising global temperatures.

There is little point in worrying about the welfare of farm animals that are extinct when we could have a much richer alternative.

The reason I sound autocratic is because I make sense. You just do not want to give up your meat to realise a better way of living.

''The butterflies of meadows will return​''

''it will be a rich and rewarding landscape to enjoy''

Rheghead quote from 5th March

''I watched Countryfile tonight. A sheep farmer reported that they were preserving the landscape by having sheep to graze the land. Otherwise without sheep the land would be scrub within 5 years and within 50 years the land would be woodland. It seems to me that farmers agree with what I am saying.​''

Which do you believe? As your statements from different dates appear at odds with each other. Do we manage butterfly meadows, or do we let nature return them to woodland within 50 years? Moorland can quickly be over run with bracken without human intervention (plus sheep/goats) driving out any native plants/wildlife. It is because landowners manage the landscape that diversity thrives.

Blanket woodland is NOT a diverse landscape which is why farmers/landowners often clear patches of woodland to encourage diversity. Have you ever seen a beautiful managed woodland glade. a real magical place. Your 'plan' is to let nature reclaim the land. So in 50 years we are surrounded by woodland. Great diversity then.

You appear to want to go back to medieval times where we all had a piece of land and grew our own food. A bit idealistic as the population is now nearly 70 million compared with around 2 million. Perhaps reintroduce the plague and wipe out a few of us and you could take back the land from its legal owners and have your Utopia. sounds like a form of Communism to me. Often inspired by unhappy people who think they know better than the masses, an 'equal' society where some are more equal than others.

[Rheghead]

Which do you believe? As your statements from different dates appear at odds with each other. Do we manage butterfly meadows, or do we let nature return them to woodland within 50 years? Moorland can quickly be over run with bracken without human intervention (plus sheep/goats) driving out any native plants/wildlife. It is because landowners manage the landscape that diversity thrives.

Blanket woodland is NOT a diverse landscape which is why farmers/landowners often clear patches of woodland to encourage diversity. Have you ever seen a beautiful managed woodland glade. a real magical place. Your 'plan' is to let nature reclaim the land. So in 50 years we are surrounded by woodland. Great diversity then.

You appear to want to go back to medieval times where we all had a piece of land and grew our own food. A bit idealistic as the population is now nearly 70 million compared with around 2 million. Perhaps reintroduce the plague and wipe out a few of us and you could take back the land from its legal owners and have your Utopia. sounds like a form of Communism to me. Often inspired by unhappy people who think they know better than the masses, an 'equal' society where some are more equal than others.

No conflicts, you are just creating a conflict where none exists.

Farming is the biggest cause of biodiversity loss in the UK. The ideal landscape for a farmer is a field with one species of grass in it with no weeds and a flock or herd of livestock. A farmer is a pains to prevent any biodiversity getting a foothold by the use of insecticides and herbicides. That is biodiversity loss.

Take these words...

From the time when humans first occupied Earth and began to hunt animals, gather food and chop wood, they have had an impact on biodiversity. Over the last two centuries, human population growth, overexploitation of natural resources and environmental degradation have resulted in an ever accelerating decline in global biodiversity. Species are diminishing in numbers and becoming extinct, and ecosystems are suffering damage and disappearing.

Biodiversity - short for biological diversity - means the diversity of life in all its forms - the diversity of species, of genetic variations within one species, and of ecosystems.

An estimated 80% of the original forest that covered the Earth 8,000 years ago has been cleared, damaged or fragmented.

Some experts assess the rate at which species are becoming extinct at 1,000 to 10,000 times higher than the natural rate would be.

A sample of 23 common farmland birds and 24 common woodland birds monitored in 18 European countries show a decline in numbers by 71% between 1980 and 2002.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-04-27_en.htm

[Goodfellers]

No one is disagreeing with what currently goes on.

What I want to know is how your vision of the future is going to work..............please explain.

[sids]

Please refrain from feeding the troll folks

Feed him?

He turns up his nose at any proper meit.

[Rheghead]

No one is disagreeing with what currently goes on.

What I want to know is how your vision of the future is going to work..............please explain.

Well I think I have explained it many times before, sorry if it missed your notice.

On a vegan diet we would need less land to produce our food. Some enthusiastic estimates say about an 18th of the land, some more conservative estimates say 1/3rd f what is currently being used. Also we could produce an abundance of extra food to produce food for an expansion of population or feed populations in other countries. That is because we are currently producing far more crops to feed animals for meat and dairy. In other words, the animals are eating all the food. The difference in land area required for creating food for a vegan population and that for a meateater could go wild thus providing habitats for wild animals and plants.

It is basic common sense, I could produce lots of papers to support this idea but I'm sure you can understand this. You are not stupid, you are/were a farmer and they're the most intelligent people I know.

[Neil Howie]

I'll ask again...

Firstly, in attempt to seek common ground for discussion, do you agree that it is reasonable that people should be demanding food choices that are better for their health, the environment and animal welfare? And do you see that a reduced meat and dairy intake as part of that solution?

r.e. dairy - well not if you're in Bulgaria, according to the BBC 2 programme "The Secrets of Your Food" (episode 1) where it identified the yoghurt as a possible contributor for their very long lives.

On a vegan front, it also showed them drying mushrooms in the sun which would give them extra vitamin D, maybe important as you don't eat fish but not sure where you stand on the is it alive/dead with 'shrooms?

• 
  

[Rheghead]

Educators and farmers say that it is important that kids of today should know where their food comes from. Do you think that a 360degree 3D tour of a slaughter house is a good step in the right direction?

https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/...rtual-abattoir

[Alrock]

Educators and farmers say that it is important that kids of today should know where their food comes from. Do you think that a 360degree 3D tour of a slaughter house is a good step in the right direction?

https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/...rtual-abattoir

Excellent idea... Educate the children from a young age on meat production, help normalise the idea so that they get used to it & less disgusted as adults due to the conditioning of their impressionable youhg minds.

[Goodfellers]

Well I think I have explained it many times before, sorry if it missed your notice.

On a vegan diet we would need less land to produce our food. Some enthusiastic estimates say about an 18th of the land, some more conservative estimates say 1/3rd f what is currently being used. Also we could produce an abundance of extra food to produce food for an expansion of population or feed populations in other countries. That is because we are currently producing far more crops to feed animals for meat and dairy. In other words, the animals are eating all the food. The difference in land area required for creating food for a vegan population and that for a meateater could go wild thus providing habitats for wild animals and plants.

It is basic common sense, I could produce lots of papers to support this idea but I'm sure you can understand this. You are not stupid, you are/were a farmer and they're the most intelligent people I know.

I don't think you are getting my point.

Farmers can produce enough to feed the UK population, that's agreed. What we are currently debating is biodiversity.

What I am trying to find out from you is whether you want farmers to produce the food or whether there should be some sort of land redistribution, whereby we all have our own plot as in medieval times.

If you want farmers to grow the food, your vision of lots of biodiversity will not work. there would still have to be farming on an industrial scale, i.e. monoculture. Do you know how much a pea harvester costs? To justify buying one, you need a huge acreage of peas. Same with potatoes, carrots and any other vegetable you can name. I think your vision is of farmers having a few rows of each, something like an oversized allotment. It can never be like that because of economy of scale.

So, we have established farmers will be growing food in huge single crop fields, no real biodiversity there especially as huge amounts of pesticide would be used, unless you allow GM crops bred to be pest resistant (new thread perhaps?) Any land not used would soon 'scrub up' as there are no animals to graze it. within 50 years new trees are established, within 100 years all unfarmed land is forest with poor diversity, particularly in the more northern parts of the UK where it will be mostly pine which is a really poor environment for biodiversity. What happened to all your butterfly meadows? Your vast plains of grassland with wild animals free to chase and eat each other? Buried under elder, willow ash, bracken and alder, soon to be followed by oak, beech etc.

Will we be allowed to continue growing wheat and barley? Thinking of malting barley specifically, because in this new world we are all going to need a drink! Based on last years crop about 650,000 acers were given over to malting barley. Not much wheat grown in this country is suitable for milling, most is feed wheat, so I assume we will be allowed to import Canadian?US wheat for bread, or are we all going gluten free too?