Owen Smith and Brexit

[Fulmar]

I wondered what you all think about Owen Smith's position on Brexit and that he would go for a second referendum based on the assertion that the British people were lied to (tell us something new)! Also, that he would call for a parliamentary vote on the timing of invoking Article 50.I am not sure what to think about it. Is it undemocratic or not given a decisive vote in favour of Brexit given that in theory, referenda are, in any case, advisory in law rather than mandatory. Also, is his position a shrewd move or is it political suicide?
Thoughts!

[tonkatojo]

I wondered what you all think about Owen Smith's position on Brexit and that he would go for a second referendum based on the assertion that the British people were lied to (tell us something new)! Also, that he would call for a parliamentary vote on the timing of invoking Article 50.I am not sure what to think about it. Is it undemocratic or not given a decisive vote in favour of Brexit given that in theory, referenda are, in any case, advisory in law rather than mandatory. Also, is his position a shrewd move or is it political suicide?<br>Thoughts!

<br>
Where does it say he actually said we were Lied to ?. The man is trying to desperately grab at anything he thinks is a headline, that is not. He blabs on regarding a referendum regarding the terms of "Brexit" if he were to be prime minister, he has no chance of becoming before Brexit actually happens ( the sooner the better ) so once again a sad headline grab. <br>The labour party has forgotten in my opinion exactly what democracy means, not just regarding referendums but the actual excluding party members from national party votes, they are working towards a dictatorship IE: what they think is ok should apply.<br>As regard your statement regarding "referenda" that remains to be proven, what with parliament being in tory hands they can and will please themselves and invoke whatever it takes to push it through, so I understand.<br>Corbyn nor Smith are prime minister material and at present the Labour party are not National leaders, once again in my opinion. They missed an opportunity by not shouting from the rooftops the success Brexit will be and Labour could make it all happen, instead they are anti everything no matter what the majority of the national UK want.<br>Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP should not commit and enter into referendums if they are not willing to abide by the outcome, it is no good twisting things to try and call default, saying Scotland said this and that by majority, she should recognise that everyone knew the referendum terms and crying after the event is just sour grapes.

[rob murray]

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Where does it say he actually said we were Lied to ?. The man is trying to desperately grab at anything he thinks is a headline, that is not. He blabs on regarding a referendum regarding the terms of "Brexit" if he were to be prime minister, he has no chance of becoming before Brexit actually happens ( the sooner the better ) so once again a sad headline grab. <br>The labour party has forgotten in my opinion exactly what democracy means, not just regarding referendums but the actual excluding party members from national party votes, they are working towards a dictatorship IE: what they think is ok should apply.<br>As regard your statement regarding "referenda" that remains to be proven, what with parliament being in tory hands they can and will please themselves and invoke whatever it takes to push it through, so I understand.<br>Corbyn nor Smith are prime minister material and at present the Labour party are not National leaders, once again in my opinion. They missed an opportunity by not shouting from the rooftops the success Brexit will be and Labour could make it all happen, instead they are anti everything no matter what the majority of the national UK want.<br>Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP should not commit and enter into referendums if they are not willing to abide by the outcome, it is no good twisting things to try and call default, saying Scotland said this and that by majority, she should recognise that everyone knew the referendum terms and crying after the event is just sour grapes.

"The success Brexit will be"......are you in the know ? because at the moment government haven't a clue what BREXIT will look like etc, so article 50 wont be progressed for quite a long while yet, then we will see over time ( next 3 -5 years ) if BREXIT will e a success, at the moment its a word thats all, backed up by Mays Brexit means Brexit statement...but follow whats going on and there seems to be different interpretations of BREXIT ? I feel that what will eventually be BREXIT UK, will differ markedly than what was "sold" to the population !

[tonkatojo]

"The success Brexit will be"......are you in the know ? because at the moment government haven't a clue what BREXIT will look like etc, so article 50 wont be progressed for quite a long while yet, then we will see over time ( next 3 -5 years ) if BREXIT will e a success, at the moment its a word thats all, backed up by Mays Brexit means Brexit statement...but follow whats going on and there seems to be different interpretations of BREXIT ? I feel that what will eventually be BREXIT UK, will differ markedly than what was "sold" to the population !

I definitely am in the know of my mind and it was made up well before the actual referendum for out, the so called lies and hidden truths did not matter a jot to me I voted for what I believe was for the good of the UK not my personal gains of cheap holidays low cost cell phone calls or other total immaterial things.
As for different interpretations of Brexit the only one I voted for was out not a bit of this or the other, what is now being offered is completely different to what I understood ("sold") IE: a watered down appeasement that will jigger the UK completely. If this nonsense goes ahead for bits and pieces of individual wants, democracy is stuffed.
As for government, they were elected to the position, gave what was promised, (all took part in the referendum were fully aware of what was offered and if were not should have found out or abstained), now the elected government should make the decisions they were elected for, it is not for every Owen-David-Nicola-Tom-Dick or Harry to make the decisions except for opinions to put before parliament and for government to consider.
I despair what this UK is becoming, .dictators must be loving this load of charades,us playing how important am I.

[rob murray]

I definitely am in the know of my mind and it was made up well before the actual referendum for out, the so called lies and hidden truths did not matter a jot to me I voted for what I believe was for the good of the UK not my personal gains of cheap holidays low cost cell phone calls or other total immaterial things.
As for different interpretations of Brexit the only one I voted for was out not a bit of this or the other, what is now being offered is completely different to what I understood ("sold") IE: a watered down appeasement that will jigger the UK completely. If this nonsense goes ahead for bits and pieces of individual wants, democracy is stuffed.
As for government, they were elected to the position, gave what was promised, (all took part in the referendum were fully aware of what was offered and if were not should have found out or abstained), now the elected government should make the decisions they were elected for, it is not for every Owen-David-Nicola-Tom-Dick or Harry to make the decisions except for opinions to put before parliament and for government to consider.
I despair what this UK is becoming, .dictators must be loving this load of charades,us playing how important am I.

"the only one I voted for was out not a bit of this or the other, what is now being offered is completely different to what I understood ("sold") IE: a watered down appeasement that will jigger the UK completely. If this nonsense goes ahead for bits and pieces of individual wants, democracy is stuffed"....Ok I agree 100% with you, but am bemused over what you" understood you were sold, basically out but without any plan", as far as I saw it leave was based on truth distortions that the remain politicians sold, stay was over exaggerated fears and now we are out these clowns have no clue on where to go and what to do.

[tonkatojo]

"the only one I voted for was out not a bit of this or the other, what is now being offered is completely different to what I understood ("sold") IE: a watered down appeasement that will jigger the UK completely. If this nonsense goes ahead for bits and pieces of individual wants, democracy is stuffed"....Ok I agree 100% with you, but am bemused over what you" understood you were sold, basically out but without any plan", as far as I saw it leave was based on truth distortions that the remain politicians sold, stay was over exaggerated fears and now we are out these clowns have no clue on where to go and what to do.

Agreed, I for one saw well past the nonsense regarding the distortions from both in and out camps. Regarding the plan for exit I can understand why there wasn't any as no one even now knows exactly what the EU wants until negotiations are underway, I presume the Government are well into or onto the demands for our end of the Brexit but there is no hard and fast rules been declared yet, more like a game of chess and call my bluff at present. What I do know is the likes of me and Joe public can do sod all at present and if unhappy vote the government out at the next general election or organise a civil war.

[rob murray]

Agreed, I for one saw well past the nonsense regarding the distortions from both in and out camps. Regarding the plan for exit I can understand why there wasn't any as no one even now knows exactly what the EU wants until negotiations are underway, I presume the Government are well into or onto the demands for our end of the Brexit but there is no hard and fast rules been declared yet, more like a game of chess and call my bluff at present. What I do know is the likes of me and Joe public can do sod all at present and if unhappy vote the government out at the next general election or organise a civil war.

Wouldn't surprise me if a reversal / watered down BREXIT or words to that effect appear in some or other parties manifesto come next election

[tonkatojo]

Wouldn't surprise me if a reversal / watered down BREXIT or words to that effect appear in some or other parties manifesto come next election

It would surprise me as the next general election is 2020 and Brexit should be well underway by then.

[rob murray]

It would surprise me as the next general election is 2020 and Brexit should be well underway by then.

Article 50 has to be triggered yes ? All reports indicate that government is at early doors in preparing negotiations so no triggering until they've worked out their preferred position post BREXIT / on going EU "engagement", that is not a fag packet job and will take considerable time. Politics is also very fluid whose to say what will happen in a split tory party that wont trigger an election prior to 2020 ? Everything in this is very complex and the politics is messy.