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Thread: Should the Tories support Indy 2 to save the money markets

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fulmar View Post
    But the comments I quoted were made by Barroso who was not, last time I checked, a member of the No campaign or even a citizen of the UK so you have lost me there.
    But what you quoted doesn't mean that Scotland is precluded from EU membership, and anyway it wasn't what I was referring to, I was referring to JC Junker in a summary of the EU in 2014, the comment you quored were made 2 years before the indyref debate and by Barroso. Quite frankly the technicalities are in uncharted water, but what is clear is that Scotland qualifies for EU membership as an independent nation because it already is in the EU......so far
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  2. #22

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    But it isn't an independent nation, is it, as yet so can't be a member until, or unless, it is.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fulmar View Post
    But it isn't an independent nation, is it, as yet so can't be a member until, or unless, it is.
    Greenland?
    As a dependency of Denmark, Greenland was in the EU.
    Upon gaining autonomous rule (in 1979), Greenland chose (by referendum in 1982) not to continue membership of the EU.



    Scotland's position is different obviously, in that gaining independence would cause the break up of the member nation.
    Last edited by sprint95m; 27-Jun-16 at 11:56.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by squidge View Post
    It it was not actually Brussels that said that. Brussels made no pronouncement on the issue because they were not asked. Various officials made some remarks that could have and were interpreted as positive by both sides on the issue of Scotland's membership but they were not asked. The reason for that was because the UK was the member they could only discuss the issue with WM.

    Everything has has changed on that front. David Cameron is now being excluded from EU meetings. Nicola Sturgeon now has a clear mandate to speak directly to the EU and is taking steps now to do so and EVERYTHING is in the air.

    There is a precedent for part of a country to be in the EU and part to be out. Denmark is in and Greenland and the Faroes are out. I think however, that both Greenland and The Faroes have significantly more self determination as part of Denmark than Scotland does as part of the U.K.

    Indyref 2 will not be the same animal as Indy ref 1 was. Let's just wait and see
    Yes indy 2 is a completely different I 100% agree, everything is up in the air and although not an snp voter I commend Sturgeon on leadership and dealing with the situation. She came over very good on Sunday politics spelling out the different complexities involved in shaping a strategy, leaving BREXITERS in their beds.

  5. #25

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    Yes, and Denmark was the larger partner (all Greenland was worried about was control of fishing- one thing to settle and negotiate on, not many and still took considerable time) so it is the reverse situation and I don't see how it is applicable or comparable or how it sets some kind of precedent, to be honest.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fulmar View Post
    Yes, and Denmark was the larger partner (all Greenland was worried about was control of fishing- one thing to settle and negotiate on, not many and still took considerable time) so it is the reverse situation and I don't see how it is applicable or comparable or how it sets some kind of precedent, to be honest.
    Scotland staying in EU will be a lengthy complex process, and can surely only do so as a separate independent state, however we are into the unknown with seemingly no quick fixes at first glance but who knows ? at least Sturgeon is admitting the complexities involved in what has to be seen as a 3 d chess game

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    I can see an independent Scotland in the EU being an economic powerhouse as EU companies will just find it easier to go north to relocate and they will use Scotland as the gateway to the EU 540 million customers.
    How? 85% of Scotland's trade is with the rest of the United Kingdom. You're basically saying that a 2% increase in 15% of our trade will compensate for a 2% loss in 85% of it (and that's being generous). Outside the EU, the UK is better placed to remove regulatory burdens and make deals with the whole world, not just its smallest continent. You are suggesting turning Scotland into Greece.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoggie View Post
    How? 85% of Scotland's trade is with the rest of the United Kingdom. You're basically saying that a 2% increase in 15% of our trade will compensate for a 2% loss in 85% of it (and that's being generous). Outside the EU, the UK is better placed to remove regulatory burdens and make deals with the whole world, not just its smallest continent. You are suggesting turning Scotland into Greece.
    Good point.

    An independent Scotland within the EU could suffer through its biggest trading partner and closest neighbour being outwith the EU.

    If the EU don't allow a free trade deal with the UK, an independent Scotland would be the biggest loser.
    Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; Nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.

    - Charles de Gaulle

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by theone View Post
    Good point.

    An independent Scotland within the EU could suffer through its biggest trading partner and closest neighbour being outwith the EU.

    If the EU don't allow a free trade deal with the UK, an independent Scotland would be the biggest loser.
    Erm, no - England would be the biggest loser as almost half of its trade is with the EU. Scotland would lose least as 85% of its trade is internal UK trade. Scotland would barely notice the difference, unless it ends up with the Brussels system when its main markets are not.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoggie View Post
    Erm, no - England would be the biggest loser as almost half of its trade is with the EU. Scotland would lose least as 85% of its trade is internal UK trade. Scotland would barely notice the difference, unless it ends up with the Brussels system when its main markets are not.
    I disagree.

    If the EU don't allow free trade with England/UK then the an independent Scotland would face trade tariffs for 85% of its imports and exports. England would be 50%.
    Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; Nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.

    - Charles de Gaulle

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by theone View Post
    I disagree.

    If the EU don't allow free trade with England/UK then the an independent Scotland would face trade tariffs for 85% of its imports and exports. England would be 50%.
    Its all hypothetical isnt it, we will get what 27 EU nations "agree" to give, and niceties and pleasantries are fast disappearing. We're out and dont know what out will be ?

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob murray View Post
    Its all hypothetical isnt it, we will get what 27 EU nations "agree" to give, and niceties and pleasantries are fast disappearing. We're out and dont know what out will be ?
    Indeed.

    The vote was in/out where I believe a large majority wanted to stay in with reforms, but the EU held firm and the voters didn't like it.

    What will it be - nobody knows - but I'm pretty sure German exporters will put a lot of pressure on Merkel to keep free trade open.
    Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; Nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.

    - Charles de Gaulle

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by theone View Post
    I disagree.

    If the EU don't allow free trade with England/UK then the an independent Scotland would face trade tariffs for 85% of its imports and exports. England would be 50%.
    Sorry yes - I misunderstood the point: you were agreeing with me! - and I agree with you.

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