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Thread: Indy 2

  1. #21
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    Time to leave the UK, let them got on with whatever they want to got on with. The scaremongering is not so frightening the second time round.
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    Time to leave the UK, let them got on with whatever they want to got on with. The scaremongering is not so frightening the second time round.
    As a no voter in 2014 and a remain voter in 2016, nothing has changed for me regarding my views on independence for Scotland.
    The Nats should not assume that remain voters in Scotland are also yes supporters.

    It is still and always will be a No from me.
    W.A.T.P.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mi16 View Post
    As a no voter in 2014 and a remain voter in 2016, nothing has changed for me regarding my views on independence for Scotland.
    The Nats should not assume that remain voters in Scotland are also yes supporters.

    It is still and always will be a No from me.
    If every no voter took the same line then Scotland would be perpetually locked into a Stockholm Syndrome type of relationship with the other UK countries. Lock in against its will, gradually getting worse and worse, raped of its resources, not filling its full potential and finally refusing to leave the situation because we think the captors are really nice people.

    That would be insane.
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    If every no voter took the same line then Scotland would be perpetually locked into a Stockholm Syndrome type of relationship with the other UK countries. Lock in against its will, gradually getting worse and worse, raped of its resources, not filling its full potential and finally refusing to leave the situation because we think the captors are really nice people.

    That would be insane.
    Locked in against its will!
    Hang on a minute here fella, the majority of Scottish folk wanted to stay as part of the UK, that is democracy and has to be respected.
    As part of the very same democracy, 51.9% of the UK folk wanted to leave Europe, again this is democracy and I also respect and accept that.
    W.A.T.P.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mi16 View Post
    Locked in against its will!
    Hang on a minute here fella, the majority of Scottish folk wanted to stay as part of the UK, that is democracy and has to be respected.
    As part of the very same democracy, 51.9% of the UK folk wanted to leave Europe, again this is democracy and I also respect and accept that.
    Indyref2014 was a con when they broke purda with the last minute Vow. It was illegal but nothing was done about it. Despite all the fearmongering the Yes Campaign ran apositive informed campaign to go from 20 points behind to getting a lead in the polls only to have a panic-driven pseudo version of devomax thrust upon us through the vow.

    There has been a material change to those arrangements in 2014, if you haven't noticed, and Scotland's relationship with the rest of the UK has fundimentally changed since last night because the tories which we have rejected in Scotland will now determine the nature of all the laws that return to Westminster. Whilst 56/59 MPs are pro-indy MPs and Scotland voted an overall majority of pro-indy MSPs in 2016. If you think it is situation normal then you are seriously misguided.

    Why would you want Scotland to be tied to a union that is so at political odds to the wishes of its population? We are an open welcoming nation with a proportionally represented form of government. The majority of rest of the UK have opted to endorse a undemocratic form of government with extra powers on a xenophobic and isolationist ticket, now who wants that unless you are xenophobic? It is politically perverse unless you see the Act of Union as some sacred institution that cannot be touched. Which is such a form of dysfunctional thinking if the union causes more distress than it causes happiness.
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  6. #26
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    I think we need to calm down and that's hard to do because I have been alternatively furious and devastated today. Mi16 is right. It is not automatic that remain voters will be yes voters. It is true that there are many who will but there is still work to do. In addition for those who do not want a 2nd referendum, you need to understand that we were told staying in the union will protect EU membership and that has been proved not to be the case. That is a fundamental change which, had it happened in ten years would maybe not have been so critical but actually is.

    There has to be an honest debate. We must be respectful of each other's views. For anyone reconsidering their Indy ref vote we wanted you with us then and we want you with us now but we are not going to assume any right to your vote. We will work hard to make the case for Indy ref 2 and you can make your choice like everyone else.

  7. #27
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    Had we voted yes in 2014 on the oil based budget we would be in a right old mess today.
    a barrel worth less than half of what it was then and many 10s of thousands of jobs lost

    back then it was a leap of faith job, with no solid figures.
    give us the actual figures be it good or bad and then I may be prepared to at least consider it.
    what I won't consider is a wing and a prayer.
    W.A.T.P.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mi16 View Post
    Had we voted yes in 2014 on the oil based budget we would be in a right old mess today.
    a barrel worth less than half of what it was then and many 10s of thousands of jobs lost

    back then it was a leap of faith job, with no solid figures.
    give us the actual figures be it good or bad and then I may be prepared to at least consider it.
    what I won't consider is a wing and a prayer.
    Had we got independence in 2014 then we would have taken control of the oil. We would be receiving all the revenue of the oil at the current price. I've no pHD in maths but I do not need a calculator to work out that that is much more favourable than receiving a twelfth of the revenue at twice the price.
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  9. #29
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    I'm certainly not going to even start to discuss issues or make arguments for an Indy Scotland, I'm too tired and too miserable. I'm off to France next week. I'm tempted not to even come back.

    Take time, breathe let's see what actually happens.

    I'm even going to send xxxxxxes

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    Had we got independence in 2014 then we would have taken control of the oil. We would be receiving all the revenue of the oil at the current price. I've no pHD in maths but I do not need a calculator to work out that that is much more favourable than receiving a twelfth of the revenue at twice the price.
    we would have built a budget based on the higher price, the backside would have fallen out of oil, we would have tens of thousands no longer contributing to the system and now draining it. Then there are the businesses that were to leave as well.
    all in all we would have been right up a certain creek
    W.A.T.P.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by squidge View Post
    I'm certainly not going to even start to discuss issues or make arguments for an Indy Scotland, I'm too tired and too miserable. I'm off to France next week. I'm tempted not to even come back.

    Take time, breathe let's see what actually happens.

    I'm even going to send xxxxxxes

    Before you go you should enlighten yourself to some of the other eurosceptic countries views, here is a bit of non British news... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...eaves-the-e-u/
    Hating people because of their colour is wrong. And it doesn't matter which colour does the hating. It's just plain wrong.
    Muhammad Ali

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    Had we got independence in 2014 then we would have taken control of the oil. We would be receiving all the revenue of the oil at the current price. I've no pHD in maths but I do not need a calculator to work out that that is much more favourable than receiving a twelfth of the revenue at twice the price.
    If's and buts are useless, better folk than you or me have and did get their calculators out on more than oil and did not come to your conclusions, that must carry some weight in your conclusions. Democracy is a funny thing, except when it doesn't go the way you want I suppose.
    Last edited by tonkatojo; 24-Jun-16 at 22:55. Reason: aditions
    Hating people because of their colour is wrong. And it doesn't matter which colour does the hating. It's just plain wrong.
    Muhammad Ali

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonkatojo View Post
    Before you go you should enlighten yourself to some of the other eurosceptic countries views, here is a bit of non British news... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...eaves-the-e-u/
    Are you really suggesting I hadn't read that already? I thought you might have known me better by now.

    Something to to chill to

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oHs98TEYecM

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by squidge View Post
    Are you really suggesting I hadn't read that already? I thought you might have known me better by now.

    Something to to chill to

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oHs98TEYecM

    Just cannot see the point of Scotland wanting to tie into an even more undemocratic system with all the pitfalls to come, the EU, when more are considering leaving, but who can fathom out everything.
    Good song by the way.
    Hating people because of their colour is wrong. And it doesn't matter which colour does the hating. It's just plain wrong.
    Muhammad Ali

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mi16 View Post
    we would have built a budget based on the higher price, the backside would have fallen out of oil, we would have tens of thousands no longer contributing to the system and now draining it. Then there are the businesses that were to leave as well.
    all in all we would have been right up a certain creek
    Where have you been? No we wouldn't have. The policy would have been to have an oil fund to build up over time to take out the worst effects the highs and lows from the oil price. I'm surprised you didn't know this as it was explained that many times unless you chose not to listen. Virtually every other country does this except I believe the UK and Iraq.
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonkatojo View Post
    Just cannot see the point of Scotland wanting to tie into an even more undemocratic system with all the pitfalls to come, the EU, when more are considering leaving, but who can fathom out everything.
    Good song by the way.
    Undemocratic EU? The voting system for the EU parliament is proportional representation. Our system allows 24% of the electorate to vote in a tory majority.
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    Where have you been? No we wouldn't have. The policy would have been to have an oil fund to build up over time to take out the worst effects the highs and lows from the oil price. I'm surprised you didn't know this as it was explained that many times unless you chose not to listen. Virtually every other country does this except I believe the UK and Iraq.
    you can't run the country on the oil money and also save it, especially when the expected oil price has been destroyed.
    W.A.T.P.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mi16 View Post
    you can't run the country on the oil money and also save it, especially when the expected oil price has been destroyed.
    The Scottish Green party policy for a independent Scotland doesn't feature oil, The SNP's policy for an independent Scotland was based on an oil fund so a drop in price was not a big issue. I thought we just went over that?
    Last edited by Rheghead; 25-Jun-16 at 11:28.
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    The Scottish Green party policy for a independent Scotland doesn't feature oil, The SNP's policy for an independent Scotland was based on an oil fund so a drop in price was not a big issue. I thought we just went over that?
    In order to build an oil fund you will need a decent oil price?
    If you are making very little from the l then there is very little to save especially when you are funding the state from the oil price also.
    I haven't seen the SNP's budget vision can you enlighten the facts and figures?
    W.A.T.P.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by mi16 View Post
    In order to build an oil fund you will need a decent oil price?
    If you are making very little from the l then there is very little to save especially when you are funding the state from the oil price also.
    I haven't seen the SNP's budget vision can you enlighten the facts and figures?
    So the oil fund would build up slowly just now which is eactlly the pace you would expect when the oil price is low. You are reinforcing the need for an oil fund. The oil was not a major feature of the budget anyway, it was always meant to be a bonus, especially under a green government..
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

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