Social Policies

[squidge]

It is interesting to note that when I look at this page the top ten posts on here, with the exception of the post by dozy, completely ignore the social policy issues that are of real concern to many of us. We have four posts on taxation or economics - one of which appears to be Rob talking exclusively to himself which is a bit of a shame as the thread maybe warranted a discussion or two. We have 2 on independence, 1 EU poll, and two on The SNP.

The one thread on social policies of the UK government has not been about that at all but about the content of the post. Dozy's language and his analogy is not one that I agree with (before anyone starts shrieking at me) but there are many many disabled and sick people who feel under threat and, indeed, persecuted by the policies of this government and perhaps WOULD agree with Dozy. The screaming indignation on that thread completely ignores that point. I don't know if Dozy has lived experience of disabilities or sickness, nor do I know if he is affected personally by the policies of this government and I am not asking but if he is then maybe his post reflects the feelings of those at the sharp end of the policies of this government.

I wonder if if we could have any sort of sensible discussion on some of the budget proposals and recent legislation that we have seen from the Westminster Government. This is me dipping my toe back into this board to see if it's worth it.

Every day my jaw drops as I hear more and more about the actions of the Conservative government and the comments of their members of parliament I have seen recently that pensioners should be picking fruit or that

So, What about the cuts to disability benefits? How can it be right to cut disability benefits and sickness benefits and yet make tax cuts for those on higher wages or cuts in corporation tax. I'm really baffled by support for this. I don't like to see cuts in corporation tax and I struggle with the SNP policy on this. However, I can be persuaded if those cuts are done in order to increase jobs as part of a programme of growing the economy and yet these taxes go hand in hand with cuts to benefits for the most needy in our society. I cannot understand how anyone can justify that.

The tax cut for high earners will not make a difference to those high earners or those corporations, but a cut of £30 per week to benefits for people who are sick, changing the rules on "points" for those who are disabled in order to ensure fewer of them qualify for disability benefits makes a massive difference to someone relying on those benefits to pay their bills or put food on the table. Robert Peston tweeted that the cuts to benefits will raise 1.2 billion which is the cost of cutting capital gains tax and raising the 40% tax threshold. How is that right or socially just or of benefit to our society. Or maybe no one cares. Maybe no one else thinks this is a problem.... is this what those of you that support conservatism want and are happy with? If you are then please explain it to me because I don't get how anyone can think these actions are the right ones.

[Alrock]

...Or maybe no one cares....

There's your answer there in a nutshell, no one cares (or at least no one in a position to do anything about it).

Yes Dozy does make a valid point, there are parallels between the rise of the Nazi party & modern Tory thinking, that's not saying it will ever get to the extremes the Nazis took it to (or at least I hope not), but the basic philosophies are the same, the weak & vunerable are a burdon on society & all the ills of the country can be blamed on one particular group, Immigrants (as opposed to the Jews in the Nazi case).

[Ducks & waits for the fallout for daring to bring history into the equation]

[Hoggie]

There's your answer there in a nutshell, no one cares (or at least no one in a position to do anything about it).

Yes Dozy does make a valid point, there are parallels between the rise of the Nazi party & modern Tory thinking, that's not saying it will ever get to the extremes the Nazis took it to (or at least I hope not), but the basic philosophies are the same, the weak & vunerable are a burdon on society & all the ills of the country can be blamed on one particular group, Immigrants (as opposed to the Jews in the Nazi case).

[Ducks & waits for the fallout for daring to bring history into the equation]

Erm, what element of the Nazi programme do you think the Conservatives resemble? The nationalisation of banks and heavy industry? Expropriation and redistribution of land? State control of all media? The death penalty for unflavoured bankers? The National Socialist Party was a Socialist party and behaved as one.

Your view of politics seems to be "I don't like X and I don't like the Nazis, so X must be Nazis" - that is beyond satire.

There is one particular British political party which values the individual above artificial collective identities, and which honours honest work and achievement not predetermined systems, and which thus has values which are the diametric opposite of the socialistic systems that swept Europe in the 1930s. Take a guess which it is.

[squidge]

Is this really going to deteriorate into another row. Let's bring it back to my original issues around cuts to sickness and disability benefits. Anything to say about that?

[Hoggie]

Is this really going to deteriorate into another row. Let's bring it back to my original issues around cuts to sickness and disability benefits. Anything to say about that?

That's fine - it is a fair issue to question. As a taxpayer I don't want them overspending my money, but if I lose my leg I'd be glad of the social insurance. Also as a taxpayer I want to make sure that those my money is funding are genuinely unable to work, not lazing about with a snuffle. Money is paid for those who really need it, not as a mark of sympathy. (I have been temporarily wheelchair-bound and it never stopped me working.)

What is the right level of benefits to make that balance? I am glad it is not my decision.

We can't say unthinkingly "all cuts are bad" because if levels have been raised beyond what is needful, they need to be cut back again. It is the level which is important, not whether we go higher or lower than last time. It is a balance to make with no right nor wrong answer.

[bekisman]

certainly needs looking at, amazing: http://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/benefit-cheats

[tonkatojo]

certainly needs looking at, amazing: http://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/benefit-cheats

These are the ones that cause all the ill feeling regarding the disability benefit, There is thousands getting cars that can walk no problem, all the system needs do is sit in supermarket car parks watch the disable bays and view at their leisure the ones who can and cannot walk the required distance without aids, another popular place to view is hospital disabled bays. There is absolutely no need to persecute the genuine disabled if the DWP had gumption. Yes, I am a disabled person who knows what they are talking about. Next time watch and make your assessment from what the citizens advice says https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/be...ions-are-made/

[Alrock]

What is the right level of benefits to make that balance?

What utter nonsense...
But that is the nonsense that the majority seem to buy into... (The Tories are very good on the propaganda front, a bit like another infamous regime that shall go nameless)...

MOST People who are not working are not doing it through choice, they simply can't get a job for many reasons, often out of their own control...

It's funny how the Government love taking credit for any fall in unemployment but refuse to accept any responsibility for increases...

[tonkatojo]

What utter nonsense...
But that is the nonsense that the majority seem to buy into... (The Tories are very good on the propaganda front, a bit like another infamous regime that shall go nameless)...

MOST People who are not working are not doing it through choice, they simply can't get a job for many reasons, often out of their own control...

It's funny how the Government love taking credit for any fall in unemployment but refuse to accept any responsibility for increases...

Your right but watch the smirks when they declare the latest zero hour contracts imposed. https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentand...ours/march2016

[Rheghead]

certainly needs looking at, amazing: http://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/benefit-cheats

Aw come on please Beks. Show some willing to play a part in a rational debate. The link you shared was about benefit cheats, people who weren't entitled to benefits. I believe squidge opened a debate about disability benefit cuts and who are entitled to it. Summat completely different to your link.

If you are aggrieved by benefit cheats as I am and squidge as well then it is just a matter of enforcement not entitlement.

[bekisman]

Aw come on please Beks. Show some willing to play a part in a rational debate. The link you shared was about benefit cheats, people who weren't entitled to benefits. I believe squidge opened a debate about disability benefit cuts and who are entitled to it. Summat completely different to your link.

If you are aggrieved by benefit cheats as I am and squidge as well then it is just a matter of enforcement not entitlement.

Sorry old chap, but got folks in, too much going on, but I think #7 above puts it very well - what do YOU think of that posting?

[Mr Z]

This is probably the most talked about budget due to events after. However it appears no one want to talk about it on the org!
IDS quits, disability benefits cut then not cut, £4.4 bn deficit, wonder what will happen in parliament today

[squidge]

Benefit fraud accounts for less than 1% of the welfare budget and cutting the benefits of everybody will not catch benefit cheats.

I'm delighted the changes to PIP look like they are not going ahead but I remain concerned about the £30 cut in rate to ESA for those in the work related activity group. These people are not fit for work but this seems to be forgotten by the Tory government.

When you are sick EVEN IF YOU WILL GET BETTER eventually then there are usually additional costs related to that, transport, heating, food, sickness benefits have reflected this in the extra they pay. Not for this group any more.

The roll out of PIP continues to put fear into many people with disabilities and long term conditions. Universal credit is looking like one big mess and I can't wait to hear what the FOI requests uncover. I think the legal decision to allow these requests is part of why we have seen the resignation of IDS.

[weezer 316]

It is interesting to note that when I look at this page the top ten posts on here, with the exception of the post by dozy, completely ignore the social policy issues that are of real concern to many of us. We have four posts on taxation or economics - one of which appears to be Rob talking exclusively to himself which is a bit of a shame as the thread maybe warranted a discussion or two. We have 2 on independence, 1 EU poll, and two on The SNP.

The one thread on social policies of the UK government has not been about that at all but about the content of the post. Dozy's language and his analogy is not one that I agree with (before anyone starts shrieking at me) but there are many many disabled and sick people who feel under threat and, indeed, persecuted by the policies of this government and perhaps WOULD agree with Dozy. The screaming indignation on that thread completely ignores that point. I don't know if Dozy has lived experience of disabilities or sickness, nor do I know if he is affected personally by the policies of this government and I am not asking but if he is then maybe his post reflects the feelings of those at the sharp end of the policies of this government.

I wonder if if we could have any sort of sensible discussion on some of the budget proposals and recent legislation that we have seen from the Westminster Government. This is me dipping my toe back into this board to see if it's worth it.

Every day my jaw drops as I hear more and more about the actions of the Conservative government and the comments of their members of parliament I have seen recently that pensioners should be picking fruit or that

So, What about the cuts to disability benefits? How can it be right to cut disability benefits and sickness benefits and yet make tax cuts for those on higher wages or cuts in corporation tax. I'm really baffled by support for this. I don't like to see cuts in corporation tax and I struggle with the SNP policy on this. However, I can be persuaded if those cuts are done in order to increase jobs as part of a programme of growing the economy and yet these taxes go hand in hand with cuts to benefits for the most needy in our society. I cannot understand how anyone can justify that.

The tax cut for high earners will not make a difference to those high earners or those corporations, but a cut of £30 per week to benefits for people who are sick, changing the rules on "points" for those who are disabled in order to ensure fewer of them qualify for disability benefits makes a massive difference to someone relying on those benefits to pay their bills or put food on the table. Robert Peston tweeted that the cuts to benefits will raise 1.2 billion which is the cost of cutting capital gains tax and raising the 40% tax threshold. How is that right or socially just or of benefit to our society. Or maybe no one cares. Maybe no one else thinks this is a problem.... is this what those of you that support conservatism want and are happy with? If you are then please explain it to me because I don't get how anyone can think these actions are the right ones.

I too have been in a piratelassie induced exile but I will chime in.

No, you are right its not fair and certainly not the combination of policies I would choose. What I would say is I, funnily enough, support IDS on this as his insistence pensioners face some cuts (my position on pensioners is far more sceptical than on any unemployed/sick and i wont recount it) should be met.

However, the majority have spoken, that's democracy whether you like it or not. I have felt for years we spend too much (pensions again) and we either cut or we raise taxes and the latter seems to be out as the majority dont want it. Christ, our apparently left wing SNP are terrified of tax rises her so that says it all.

There are many things that aren't fair in society vis a vis govt policy. I detest paying for a family on 150k+ a years children to go to St Andrews for free when you could charge them and they wont miss that money. Supporting polices like that also impacts the disabled you are arguing for here, it means less money for them.

So in short, you cant call yourself a social champion just arguing for more govt spending. It doenst have an infinite amount of money to spend and rather than just argue against the cuts while supportng blatantly unfair polices like the one I argued against there, we need to re-establish some sort of social contract. Its not just the tories that are guilty there, thats for sure.

[squidge]

I too have been in a piratelassie induced exile but I will chime in.

No, you are right its not fair and certainly not the combination of policies I would choose. What I would say is I, funnily enough, support IDS on this as his insistence pensioners face some cuts (my position on pensioners is far more sceptical than on any unemployed/sick and i wont recount it) should be met.

However, the majority have spoken, that's democracy whether you like it or not. I have felt for years we spend too much (pensions again) and we either cut or we raise taxes and the latter seems to be out as the majority dont want it. Christ, our apparently left wing SNP are terrified of tax rises her so that says it all.

There are many things that aren't fair in society vis a vis govt policy. I detest paying for a family on 150k+ a years children to go to St Andrews for free when you could charge them and they wont miss that money. Supporting polices like that also impacts the disabled you are arguing for here, it means less money for them.

So in short, you cant call yourself a social champion just arguing for more govt spending. It doenst have an infinite amount of money to spend and rather than just argue against the cuts while supportng blatantly unfair polices like the one I argued against there, we need to re-establish some sort of social contract. Its not just the tories that are guilty there, thats for sure.

I don't believe that free tuition fees is an unfair policy. But then I also support universal benefits. if we have a system which taxes higher earners more then surely they are entitled to get the benefit from that extra tax they pay. Higher rate tax payers should pay more tax but they should receive the same support, benefits, advantages as others do. Child benefit, free bus passes, free prescriptions. Maybe even a citizens income - a policy which is gathering support in all sorts of places. Where there are universal benefits you often find that people are happier to pay more tax because they also get the benefit from that policy decisions that are made. Also with some of these things - tuition fees prescriptions bus passes - if people don't need them they don't use them - so, as a low wage earner I'm not struggling to get a seat on a bus cos it's full of retired lawyers and consultants heading off on a jolly.

Means testing benefits is an inherently unfair and massively expensive way of delivering benefits. Just look at the 22million that the DWP is reported to be spending on court cases to prevent people getting certain benefits. And that's before all the mandatory reconsiderations, appeals and the 180 staff they are recruiting to put their point across at these court cases.

Universality mean that the costs and the benefits are shared across society in a way they are not now. It promotes solidarity and support rather than division and this "why should they have that" attitude. It makes for a better social contract if you like.

Specifically on tuition fees - your high earners are paying tax, certainly more tax than I pay. I don't care if their children get free tuition fees at St Andrews or at any other university. If we as a society believe that education is a right for everyone then it should... Even must be ... Free. I believe that Education should be free to all and that its worth fighting for that - it's a bit more of our social contract.

[weezer 316]

I don't believe that free tuition fees is an unfair policy. But then I also support universal benefits. if we have a system which taxes higher earners more then surely they are entitled to get the benefit from that extra tax they pay. Higher rate tax payers should pay more tax but they should receive the same support, benefits, advantages as others do. Child benefit, free bus passes, free prescriptions. Maybe even a citizens income - a policy which is gathering support in all sorts of places. Where there are universal benefits you often find that people are happier to pay more tax because they also get the benefit from that policy decisions that are made. Also with some of these things - tuition fees prescriptions bus passes - if people don't need them they don't use them - so, as a low wage earner I'm not struggling to get a seat on a bus cos it's full of retired lawyers and consultants heading off on a jolly.

Means testing benefits is an inherently unfair and massively expensive way of delivering benefits. Just look at the 22million that the DWP is reported to be spending on court cases to prevent people getting certain benefits. And that's before all the mandatory reconsiderations, appeals and the 180 staff they are recruiting to put their point across at these court cases.

Universality mean that the costs and the benefits are shared across society in a way they are not now. It promotes solidarity and support rather than division and this "why should they have that" attitude. It makes for a better social contract if you like.


Specifically on tuition fees - your high earners are paying tax, certainly more tax than I pay. I don't care if their children get free tuition fees at St Andrews or at any other university. If we as a society believe that education is a right for everyone then it should... Even must be ... Free. I believe that Education should be free to all and that its worth fighting for that - it's a bit more of our social contract.

Well see this is where we disagree. That is, without a doubt, wasted money. Education is free and universal but university education shodlnt be especially for the top 1%. You can save that cash and make more in to help student at the bottom. We have less poor students going to uni than the rest of the Uk that charges. Making the top 1% pay does not in any way restrict their access to that same education and no amount of principle talk changes that.

This ties in with the budget you have complained about. Tax rises are out, even here. So we must cut or get into more debt. That there is a prime example of a policy that disadvantages the poor and disabled as you are wasting tens of millions of pounds a year.

I ask you, instead of principles, given finite resources, where SHOULD money be targeted? universal benefits or ensuring the most vulnerable have a decent income?