The Phoney war is over

[rob murray]

The Scottish and UK governments have reached a financial agreement to support new devolved powers according to BBC....now lets see costed programmes in SNP manifesto and no more blaming westminster all responsbilities for fiscal governance of Scotland lies with scottish government. AT last no more blame, project wetsminster lol lol lets see them get on with it

[bekisman]

Oh come on Rob, How will Salmond, whoops he's a failed leader, I mean sturgen be able to blame Westminster now???

[rob murray]

Oh come on Rob, How will Salmond, whoops he's a failed leader, I mean sturgen be able to blame Westminster now???

They cant, theyve got to get on with things now hence the "phoney war" is finally over, so no blame games or hiding behind Westminster, to qoute Swinney : the Smith Commission recommendations and "many elements" of the vow on new powers made by the three main UK party leaders ahead of the independence referendum had now been delivered.

[rob murray]

OK Scotland has got what it wanted and what was promised, Sturgeon and Swinney accept this, so what happens if UK votes out and Scotland for in, in the EU referendum, does STurgeon call indy2 as she's threatening to do, the deal theyre delighted with evaporates into thin air if there is an indy2 and the majority vote to leave UK. In other words will we get a better financial deal from EU than we have at the moment ? We would not get a penny from UK as we will be a seperate sovereign state ,so we lose out surely ? Any answers for this conundrum, as I understand it countries pay into EU and receive rebates ?

[tonkatojo]

OK Scotland has got what it wanted and what was promised, Sturgeon and Swinney accept this, so what happens if UK votes out and Scotland for in, in the EU referendum, does STurgeon call indy2 as she's threatening to do, the deal theyre delighted with evaporates into thin air if there is an indy2 and the majority vote to leave UK. In other words will we get a better financial deal from EU than we have at the moment ? We would not get a penny from UK as we will be a seperate sovereign state ,so we lose out surely ? Any answers for this conundrum, as I understand it countries pay into EU and receive rebates ?

Rob have you forgotten the massive oil revenues.

[rob murray]

Rob have you forgotten the massive oil revenues.

Whoops I forgot about that revenue : with full devolved fiscal powers, then there is no justification no matter EU results, to shout for indy2 so that will be put to bed as well. Problem is what do SNP do next to appease yessers as they will feel betrayed.

[Alrock]

Once we are dragged out of the EU will we see any of the money saved by not paying in or will it be used for more tax cuts for the rich?

& what about all the projects funded by the EU in Scotland, who will pay for them?

[theone]

Once we are dragged out of the EU will we see any of the money saved by not paying in or will it be used for more tax cuts for the rich?

& what about all the projects funded by the EU in Scotland, who will pay for them?

Who is "WE" and who will be doing the "DRAGGING"?

The prime minister has made it clear he does not want out the EU.

The majority of his government don't want out the EU.

The majority of the opposition don't want out the EU.

The only people who will decide if we leave the EU are the people themselves. One man, one vote and all that. Democracy in action.

[Manxman]

If the rest of the UK vote to leave the EU and we want to stay in and we were allowed to how much is it going to cost as it has been quoted that it costs the UK
50 MILLION POUNDS A DAY where do we get that money from

[rob murray]

Edited from a piece by Alex Bell : What if scenarios : Nicola Sturgeon has said that should the UK vote to leave the EU but Scots return a majority to stay in, then another independence referendum is 'inescapable'. The Europe vote is on 23 June. If the UK votes to leave, then the next day the EU and London would set in train the process of negotiating the whole of the UK out of all the EU treaties. Officials within the Scottish Government would have to start work on leaving the EU.

Let’s assume the first minister on the same day declares another referendum on Scottish independence because Scots voted to remain in the EU. If she did she would be breaking the law ie the powers within the Scotland Act of 1997 regarding the limits of the FM’s authority. No one in the devolved system has the power to call a referendum on a matter which is reserved to Westminster. The Smith recommendations include Edinburgh being master of its own destiny but those have not as yet been enacted. This means the lord advocate would have to declare the referendum illegal, and it would be outwith the scope of officials to work on it. Should St Andrews’s House overlook this and pursue the plan, presumably claiming a great injustice (Scotland’s voice being ignored), there would still need to be a bill submitted to the Holyrood parliament. The presiding officer would also have to declare the bill illegal, and thus reject its submission. Assuming some popular wave of enthusiasm for the idea which somehow persuades everyone in the Scottish establishment to permit the bill to be discussed, the plan could be scuppered by any individual taking the government or the parliament to court, challenging the legality of the process.

Now imagine that somehow the first minster argues the matter is so important that it transcends normal legal process and she simply declares a plebiscite. This too could be challenged in the courts. As would any suggestion that public funds be used – who would pay the returning officers and counters and policemen who make elections possible?
Let’s assume that all of this is overcome – perhaps David Cameron resigns, a new Tory PM takes office and says 'hell mend them', and permits the vote. This too could be challenged in the UK supreme court but again, let’s set that aside.
So the second referendum is happening, and for argument’s sake it is to be held in September 2016. If the legal issues were the starters to this feast of possibilities, now we are moving onto the main course.
Scotland, as part of the UK until the second referendum result is won, will be negotiating out of the EU while holding a campaign to leave the UK. Scottish Government officials will be working on how to leave the EU and how to leave the UK (and so hope to stay in the EU). Public administration would be obsessed with the complexity and contradictions at the expense of domestic affairs.

Then there is the economic issue. In the last independence referendum, the SNP argued that sterling would be the currency. This wouldn’t apply if England were leaving the EU and Scotland hoping to stay – you couldn’t have a currency straddling two competing regimes. So in this scenario, Scotland would have to chose another currency, or invent its own. A new, independent currency is very unlikely, so the SNP’s new model of independence would include joining the euro. It is true that some states have delayed the euro indefinitely, but that may be academic. What other choice would Scotland have? If Scotland used the euro, it would come with strict borrowing limits – this is the big lesson of the euro crisis – and rules on what Edinburgh could do with tax powers. In short, Brussels would block any tax cuts as proposed by the SNP back in 2014.
As Scotland does have a gap between what is earned and what is spent, it is very hard to see how the SNP could argue its way out of a financial hole. The only option would be higher taxes. That is exactly what the SNP denied in the last referendum, and as they still see the cautious middle classes as the voters who need to be turned, it's hard to see the party being happy with this new reality.

There is a much bigger problem for the SNP. In this grand 'what-if’, we are saying that England is out of the EU. The only economic bolt the SNP have ever had is cutting tax to compete with London – but this time London will be ferociously tax-cutting to create its advantage over the EU. It would protect the City of London in particular.
The SNP would have to somehow conjure up a world where Scotland has a hope of competing when it has a land border with a much lower tax regime.
Assume that the independence case is won in our imaginary vote of September 2016. The sovereign state of Scotland cannot exist until it does exist – that is, 'Scotland’ would not come about until after it had negotiated out of the UK – which may take two years (the timeframe in the White Paper was simply invented to suit the existing rhythm of elections).

Scotland might exist as a sovereign nation in late 2018, by which time it may have completely left the EU by virtue of being part of the UK until that point.
Let’s assume that after a yes vote to Scottish independence, the negotiations between London and Brussels become three-way, including Edinburgh. London would be negotiating out, Scotland negotiating in. In this scenario, there would be no time to leisurely divide assets and responsibilities – who gets what and who pays for what in the dividing UK would become hotly disputed. This isn't the friendly parting of the ways the SNP promised in 2014. Which isn’t to say Scotland’s new membership couldn’t be expedited in some novel manner, given the unique situation, but that would require the consent of the remaining 27 members.
Any deal struck between a sovereign Scotland and the EU would have to be voted on by the Scottish people. What if they vote No? Then Scotland would have no currency, a pip-squeak voice in global affairs and be in chaos as the finance industry would have left for either London or Frankfurt.
It may be 'inescapable' to Nicola, but as the days pass she may also conclude that the chaos which would follow is no good for her nor for Scotland.

[rob murray]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/647...ite-SNP-claims

60% of scots are euro sceptic according to reliable polls, almost identical attitude to EU as rest of UK poll shows.

[piratelassie]

Before the war is over we need FFA. Without it our hands are still tied, so dream on.

The Scottish and UK governments have reached a financial agreement to support new devolved powers according to BBC....now lets see costed programmes in SNP manifesto and no more blaming westminster all responsbilities for fiscal governance of Scotland lies with scottish government. AT last no more blame, project wetsminster lol lol lets see them get on with it

[rob murray]

Before the war is over we need FFA. Without it our hands are still tied, so dream on.

Come off it Sturgeon Swinney et all have the"FFA", all they wanted and some more, or are you kidding yourself on, how are their hands tied, cos if they were they would have been in press etc bawling that westminster stitched them up etc etc , theyre not, they are "proudly" boasting ( and rightly so ) that they secured the lot, the vow was delivered, westminster caved in to them, are you not glad of that, or I rather suspect that you would have prefered continuation of the westmister blame game, well no blame now, lets see them govern.

[piratelassie]

We do'nt have control of 100% of taxation.

Come off it Sturgeon Swinney et all have the"FFA", all they wanted and some more, or are you kidding yourself on, how are their hands tied, cos if they were they would have been in press etc bawling that westminster stitched them up etc etc , theyre not, they are "proudly" boasting ( and rightly so ) that they secured the lot, the vow was delivered, westminster caved in to them, are you not glad of that, or I rather suspect that you would have prefered continuation of the westmister blame game, well no blame now, lets see them govern.

[rob murray]

We do'nt have control of 100% of taxation.

SUpose your right we dont control VAT, but would nats cut vat ?? WHy dont you get in touch with Sturgeon and Swinney, theyre delighted with the powers they have, if they werent, be sure thats all we would hear from them, but theyre happy as can be, obviously your not ? Swinney : “What we’ve got is a set of powers we can take forward and implement and utilise to improve the quality of life of people in Scotland.” WHat prey tell me are you unhappy about ?

[piratelassie]

Power devolved is power retained. Scotland NEEDS to reap it's own harvest and ring it's own till. Surely that's not too much to ask for, after all we'er more than capable of looking after ourselves.

SUpose your right we dont control VAT, but would nats cut vat ?? WHy dont you get in touch with Sturgeon and Swinney, theyre delighted with the powers they have, if they werent, be sure thats all we would hear from them, but theyre happy as can be, obviously your not ? Swinney : “What we’ve got is a set of powers we can take forward and implement and utilise to improve the quality of life of people in Scotland.” WHat prey tell me are you unhappy about ?

[rob murray]

Power devolved is power retained. Scotland NEEDS to reap it's own harvest and ring it's own till. Surely that's not too much to ask for, after all we'er more than capable of looking after ourselves.

OK your 100% out of step with the SNP, as you obviously want a breakaway independent Scotland, which all polls indicate is not on as the SNP I take it is your party and your unhappy and feel betrayed, form your own or create a breakaway party, as you cannot accept your own parties reality.

[piratelassie]

Independence----- only a matter of when.

OK your 100% out of step with the SNP, as you obviously want a breakaway independent Scotland, which all polls indicate is not on as the SNP I take it is your party and your unhappy and feel betrayed, form your own or create a breakaway party, as you cannot accept your own parties reality.

[rob murray]

Independence----- only a matter of when.

OK youve played your card, your indy at all costs, thats a pity as your never going to get it not now. Why not accept what youve gained so far ?

[bekisman]

Stuck here at Edinburgh Airport waiting for yet another delayed Flybe flight, just looking at the News that Sturgeon "Warns Cameron" : "she again re-iterated that if Scotland voted to remain in the EU on 23 June while the UK as a whole voted to leave, it could trigger demands for a second independence referendum." My God, what an overblown opinion that woman has of herself! in reality who the hell does she think she is? There is no correlation whatsoever in those voting NO to Europe and voting YES for Independence. Unfortunately for Sturgeon she is looked upon mockingly outside of Scotland.. we have many friends in Italy, and they are very derisive of her - maybe if she traveled a bit more and had more of an open mind it would help, but this constant stamping of feet, this shrill orders, makes her look rather pathetic..