Org Politics dying on its feet

[rob murray]

And the above is an example of why I don't bother posting on here.or even logging in much any more. I did hope that, when BT had been dunted from the forum, we might get some discussion...some facts and figures to chew over and tease out.....something/anything other than the repetitive SNP BAD mantra that BT sicked up all over the place ten or so times a month.

However, as robmurray seems to have replaced BT as the SNP BAD cheerleader, it appears plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

OK cut to the chase you infer discussion over facts and figures : ok oil = $31 a barrel $79 dolllars below what you crowd budgeted on...happy now is that good enough for you ?? Maybe you know you've been conned as there will be no indy 2 vote, why dont you listen to yer own party, Scotland cannot afford to go it alone and no matter what people like you say to the contrary you have no say, nor power to change anything so accept it there will be no indy 2

[rob murray]

What's 'tub? cela est trop difficile?

Its SNP speak for we know everything and there is no oil crisis and LA's will not rebel !!!!

[rob murray]

And the above is an example of why I don't bother posting on here.or even logging in much any more. I did hope that, when BT had been dunted from the forum, we might get some discussion...some facts and figures to chew over and tease out.....something/anything other than the repetitive SNP BAD mantra that BT sicked up all over the place ten or so times a month.

However, as robmurray seems to have replaced BT as the SNP BAD cheerleader, it appears plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

You couldn't be more wrong Im no SNP bad cheer leader, we live in a democracy not a totalarian state dont we so if SNP government are making a mess of things I have as much a right as anyone to voice an opinion ??? you give yer game away, any anti SNP questioning is not accpetable to you is it ??? You reveal your SNP zelaousness, but indirectly you raise an important question, just why was BT "dunted" maybe he raised to many truthful / awkward points and questions over SNP incompetence on an obviously pro SNP site, that he was banned on a very spurious basis ????

[dc1]

what I cant believe is that they are now denying that they were basing there future for Scotland on the high oil price .when every snp supporter that you spoke to were telling us how well of we would be on our with the oil money

[squidge]

Without oil, Scotland's GDP is less than 1% lower than the rest of the U.K. What does that mean? That means that if you assume Scotland gets NOTHING from oil at all, Scotland's economy still performs at a similar level to the rest of the U.K. It means that Scotland's economy is not reliant on oil, it is diverse and despite the lower oil price continues to grow as analysts point out that a lower oil price offers opportunities elsewhere in a resilient economy.

[bekisman]

WHERE'S ME MONEY??
2013: Mr Salmond told BBC Radio Scotland: “We put forward a reasonable oil forecast of $100 a barrel and if you do these two things then what tells you is the remaining value of the resource is £1.5 trillion. “Or to put it into everyday terms, that’s £300,000 for every man, woman and child in Scotland.” Eh? can't find it anywhere?

[rob murray]

Without oil, Scotland's GDP is less than 1% lower than the rest of the U.K. What does that mean? That means that if you assume Scotland gets NOTHING from oil at all, Scotland's economy still performs at a similar level to the rest of the U.K. It means that Scotland's economy is not reliant on oil, it is diverse and despite the lower oil price continues to grow as analysts point out that a lower oil price offers opportunities elsewhere in a resilient economy.

SO the bouyant economy can soak up all lost oil direct high paid jobs and supply chain jobs then, and an independant Scotland doesnt need an oil sector as it can raise taxation shortfalls from other areas of our economy ? Enlighen me, strip out government funded construction projects and tell me what areas of our economy are bouyant, what replaces oil direct and indirect jobs ?

[rob murray]

WHERE'S ME MONEY??
2013: Mr Salmond told BBC Radio Scotland: “We put forward a reasonable oil forecast of $100 a barrel and if you do these two things then what tells you is the remaining value of the resource is £1.5 trillion. “Or to put it into everyday terms, that’s £300,000 for every man, woman and child in Scotland.” Eh? can't find it anywhere?

Well the reknown gambler gambled and lost then as barrrel price this morning was less than $30...but hey according to some we dont need oil....period !

[dc1]

was that not what snp supporters were saying its scotlands oil and how rich we would be if we were free from the rest of uk

[rob murray]

was that not what snp supporters were saying its scotlands oil and how rich we would be if we were free from the rest of uk

Well yes originally, then the spin became ...oil is a bonus, a clear inference that we can do well without oil.

[squidge]

SO the bouyant economy can soak up all lost oil direct high paid jobs and supply chain jobs then, and an independant Scotland doesnt need an oil sector as it can raise taxation shortfalls from other areas of our economy ? Enlighen me, strip out government funded construction projects and tell me what areas of our economy are bouyant, what replaces oil direct and indirect jobs ?

The word I used was resiliant not bouyant - there is a difference - two words mean very different things. And nowhere did I say that Scotland doesn't need an oil sector. We need every job we can get, every industry we can get and as much investment as we can get. Unfortunately for Scotland, Westminster don't seem as alarmed by the oil downturn as you Rob. There appears to be I little evidence of activity to support it. They have also cut subsidies for those investing in renewables and there is little or no help for the steel industry in either Scotland, Wales or the North of England. Why would you strip out government funded construction projects from a discussion on the economy, when as I understand it, the SNP have long argued for an increase in investment in exactly such projects precisely in order to support the economy and create growth.

Despite all this though Rob it remains the case that Scotland's GDP -without oil- is on a par with the GDP of the rest of the U.K. That means that having oil would have made our economy better off even if the price was 1 dollar a barrel.

[rob murray]

The word I used was resiliant not bouyant - there is a difference - two words mean very different things. And nowhere did I say that Scotland doesn't need an oil sector. We need every job we can get, every industry we can get and as much investment as we can get. Unfortunately for Scotland, Westminster don't seem as alarmed by the oil downturn as you Rob. There appears to be I little evidence of activity to support it. They have also cut subsidies for those investing in renewables and there is little or no help for the steel industry in either Scotland, Wales or the North of England. Why would you strip out government funded construction projects from a discussion on the economy, when as I understand it, the SNP have long argued for an increase in investment in exactly such projects precisely in order to support the economy and create growth.

Despite all this though Rob it remains the case that Scotland's GDP -without oil- is on a par with the GDP of the rest of the U.K. That means that having oil would have made our economy better off even if the price was 1 dollar a barrel.

You use the words diverse economy, I queried the depth of diversity, and the ability to absorb redundant direct oil and indirect supply chain workers, you havent answered this. stripping out construction easy, because our economic activity performance indcators are inflated just now by government capital construction projects that need funding and cannot go on for ever and a day and in point of fact construction is slowing down. .rUK I agree but lets say Scotland was independant the scottish economy / tax payer could never ever afford the massive subsidies to keep some NOrth Sea existing fields going, exploration further wells, never its to expensive. Peterhead type carbon storage projects we couldnt look at either. Howevere rUK has not supported renewables either as well as it should have. This is not a blame game, the SNP government never caused the oil price situation, they are blameless, however all Im doing is highlighting that the economy is sluggish and will slow down more, that we need a degree of oil taxation to be independant, that the SNP fiscal projectsions of $100 / $110 a barrrel was nonsense and believe propoganda if you want ( you obviously do ) you cannot remove an entire economic sector direct / indirect and pretend that our economy would be better off even at $1 a barrel.

Oh, and as a Scot Im well aware of Burns and his politics, if he was alive today he would be writing in English, at the time of his writing he wrote in the native dialect, Scots, if he wis in Aberdeen he would have written in the doric. !!! As for teaching Scots in school....what about Doric, ancient northern scots etc etc The piece written in supposed scots on the Holyrood portal is laughable. Your not scottish, I can put you on to some very good scots / dorcic / ancient northern scots speakers if you require to speak Scots ( that is once we agree what exactly SCots is ?? ) , me Ive a Caithness dialect but speak English and always will.

[bekisman]

Without oil, Scotland's GDP is less than 1% lower than the rest of the U.K. What does that mean? That means that if you assume Scotland gets NOTHING from oil at all, Scotland's economy still performs at a similar level to the rest of the U.K. It means that Scotland's economy is not reliant on oil, it is diverse and despite the lower oil price continues to grow as analysts point out that a lower oil price offers opportunities elsewhere in a resilient economy.

1% lower GDP than rest of UK - is this taking into account post-independence with the loss; the Military personnel numbers in Scotland of 12,500 by 2020, Her Majesty’s Naval Base Clyde is the biggest employment site in Scotland, with 6,700 military and civilian jobs. This is set to increase to 8,200 by 2022. Overall there are nearly 10,500 Regular Armed Forces and 4,000 MOD civilian personnel from across the UK and beyond working in Scotland. The UK Government plans to increase the size of the Reserves. By 2018 there will be an estimated 4,250 trained Volunteer Reserves in Scotland. There are currently around 4,000 jobs in Scottish shipyards directly linked to the Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carrier programme. Additionally many companies who work for the Ministry of Defence have sites in Scotland, including Babcock, BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce, Selex ES, Thales and Raytheon. Royal Bank of Scotland, Lloyds will move south, and of course BILLIONS of £’s haemorrhaged out of Scotland when the ‘YES’ vote lead - so come on; 1%? hmmm

[squidge]

Oh, and as a Scot Im well aware of Burns and his politics, if he was alive today he would be writing in English, at the time of his writing he wrote in the native dialect, Scots, if he wis in Aberdeen he would have written in the doric. !!! As for teaching Scots in school....what about Doric, ancient northern scots etc etc The piece written in supposed scots on the Holyrood portal is laughable. Your not scottish, I can put you on to some very good scots / dorcic / ancient northern scots speakers if you require to speak Scots ( that is once we agree what exactly SCots is ?? ) , me Ive a Caithness dialect but speak English and always will.

Why on earth do you object so vehemently to children learning about the diversity of languages spoken, written and sung in Scotland?

And what has the fact that I am not Scottish have to do with anything? You don't need to INTRODUCE me to Scots speakers or Doric speakers Rob. I am married to a man who speaks, writes and performs in Scots as well as English. I have a number of friends who speak, sing and perform in Doric. I speak English, sing scots and encourage my children to enjoy the feel of scots, Gaelic and English words In their mouths and the sounds of Scots Gaelic and English words In their ears.

We are coming up to our 10th Burns Party in a week or so - over that time we have had songs, poems, speeches in scots, Doric, Gaelic, Russian, Arabic, German, French, Polish, Spanish, and possibly a few more languages I have forgotten. Not to mention dialects like Lancashire, Yorkshire, Geordie and Scouse. If you can't understand the richness that languages bring to life then maybe you should pop along and see for yourself. Standing room only though lol, 64 coming at the last count.

[rob murray]

Why on earth do you object so vehemently to children learning about the diversity of languages spoken, written and sung in Scotland?

And what has the fact that I am not Scottish have to do with anything? You don't need to INTRODUCE me to Scots speakers or Doric speakers Rob. I am married to a man who speaks, writes and performs in Scots as well as English. I have a number of friends who speak, sing and perform in Doric. I speak English, sing scots and encourage my children to enjoy the feel of scots, Gaelic and English words In their mouths and the sounds of Scots Gaelic and English words In their ears.

We are coming up to our 10th Burns Party in a week or so - over that time we have had songs, poems, speeches in scots, Doric, Gaelic, Russian, Arabic, German, French, Polish, Spanish, and possibly a few more languages I have forgotten. Not to mention dialects like Lancashire, Yorkshire, Geordie and Scouse. If you can't understand the richness that languages bring to life then maybe you should pop along and see for yourself. Standing room only though lol, 64 coming at the last count.

Cheezo you are presumptious and rather forcefull, have you ever considered actually asking kids if they would like to devote valuable class time towards learning scots.....and theyre not languages as you put it but dialects ....I could tell you the answer now get lost !! AN entire swathe of the country is Doric not scots dialiect : Gaelic spend is huge relevant to speakers and if not subsidised would die out in a generation, thats why you echo SCots....its easier to learn, and every country wanting indy has its own unique lanuage...language not dialect ! Call me cycnical but with a very small cohort of Gaelic speakers ( it being very hard to learn ) its easier to pretend that our language is Scots.... Imagine a CV written in Scots......straight in the bin, and whetere you like it or not english is the language of commerce. Oh for your info a lot of Abereen shire guys in oil e mail each other using pure Doric, when e mailing clients etc they use staright pure English with no Doric. Burns...like every other 15 year old when introduced to Burns at school I had no interest at all ( poetry....yuch...auld fashioned scottish language...fits at aboot ??? ) you see 15 / 16 year olds like the here and now, and back then at 15 I was more interested in Ziggy Stardust / Bowie than some dead Scottish poet...thats how Id see most 15 year olds responding to being told to learn Scots. Scottish history now thats another issue, need loads more taught !

[bekisman]

Just watched PMQ's interesting to watch the Welsh MP's bringing up the question of the Steel industry in Wales. The SNP MP's? questions about Yemen and another about Israel. thought they represented Scotland's interests - Wasted opportunities

[rob murray]

Just watched PMQ's interesting to watch the Welsh MP's bringing up the question of the Steel industry in Wales. The SNP MP's? questions about Yemen and another about Israel. thought they represented Scotland's interests - Wasted opportunities

They dont want to dirty their hands on our countrys affairs, its much more glamorous and powerful to play in geo politics : read below : debate on energy re buffed by nats......why......... scared the skeletons will fall out the cupboard ?? Anyway some namless people on here claim we would do well at current oil prices, so they must know or be party to economic stats that you or I dont get, everything is fine in Scotland, so lets play on a world stage in preparation for our independant status :

"The Scottish Liberal Democrats had urged the administration to host a session in the Scottish Parliament on the future of the offshore industry, amid spiralling job losses in the sector.
But their request was rebuffed, leading party MSP Liam McArthur to suggest the SNP believe “the oil and gas sector are not worthy of proper debate”. The last time the Scottish Parliament debated the oil and gas sector was on March 10 last year, while there was also a ministerial statement on the future prosperity for the North Sea in September"..................SHOCKING

[sprint95m]

To go back to your original question Rob, if I may, I'd like to give you two of my thoughts please....

Is there now any point in having a seperate politics section, no one has posted here in 8 days, despite, dare I say it days of political crisis, all the usual contributors have vanished through bans, boredom, disinterest or maybe some thought that the pro SNP posters have won the day so dont bother posting ? Its a joke....

As someone with an interest in history I am naturally also interested in current affairs.



Therefore many of the topics in this forum section are of interest to me, however there are two things in particular that discourage me from posting, namely:

1. I find some posts extremely hard to decipher, mainly because of a lack of punctuation.
If the post is one or two lines long then it is not so bad, but some posts are extremely long which discourages me from attempting to understand them.

2. In my opinion, a lot in this forum is written in a confrontational style, which again discourages me from even attempting to join in.
To me, this is disappointing because it can be so stimulating and educational to discuss topics, particularly so with folk whose circumstances/background/experiences/viewpoint
are/is different to your own.


I expect that many folk will consider me, especially on point no. 1, to be picky or pedantic but I don't think I am either because I believe it is important to be clear and concise.
To be a great orator you need to be clear and concise, a trait exhibited by so many successful politicians. A bit of humour doesn't go amiss either.....



Thanks.

[Mr Z]

We just have to wait for our MPs and MSPs to do something controversial so we have a topic to discuss. We should not have to wait too long!!!!