Religion....

**John Little** · 14-Dec-15, 22:37

never killed anyone.

Not a single human being has ever died from Religion.

Even though I am an atheist I am certain of this.

**bekisman** · 14-Dec-15, 23:13

Better be careful John, from forum 'rules': 'It should also be taken into consideration that certain topics like football or religion can very easily be misread and cause offence, so great care should be taken when dealing with these types of issues.'

Anyway, what about the Heaven's Gate mob?

**golach** · 15-Dec-15, 00:23

Originally Posted by bekisman

Better be careful John, from forum 'rules': 'It should also be taken into consideration that certain topics like football or religion can very easily be misread and cause offence, so great care should be taken when dealing with these types of issues.'

Anyway, what about the Heaven's Gate mob?

totaly agree Bekisman, we don't want those subjects raised on the Org

**Alrock** · 15-Dec-15, 00:32

Originally Posted by John Little

never killed anyone.

Not a single human being has ever died from Religion.

Even though I am an atheist I am certain of this.

Very true... In the same way that not a single human being has ever been killed by a gun...

**Tam 2000** · 15-Dec-15, 07:01

very wrong to say that john little, its religion, and greed thats killing the world, nothing else.

**John Little** · 15-Dec-15, 08:00

Originally Posted by golach

totaly agree Bekisman, we don't want those subjects raised on the Org

l

"We" don't?

wow.

**John Little** · 15-Dec-15, 08:01

Originally Posted by Tam 2000

very wrong to say that john little, its religion, and greed thats killing the world, nothing else.

Ideas kill?

**John Little** · 15-Dec-15, 08:03

Originally Posted by Alrock

Very true... In the same way that not a single human being has ever been killed by a gun...

That is also true.

However, guns are human artefacts and we can control them in the face of the nutters among us.

We cannot do that with ideas.

Ideas cannot kill people. It's humans with ideas, often using guns.

**Alrock** · 15-Dec-15, 09:38

Originally Posted by John Little

Ideas cannot kill people. It's humans with ideas, often using guns.

So by that argument, Religion is a human idea that is used to justify killing people with guns...

Does it then not make sense to remove such ideas?

Not an easy task but a good starting point would be to stop indoctrinating children in such ideas & remove these ideas from the running of the state.

**John Little** · 15-Dec-15, 10:19

Oh I agree with that- as in the States- religion is a personal matter and one for parents and family.

You cannot remove ideas as you can with guns. At the end of the last war Europe was full of guns in the hands of all sorts of people; yet all the countries of Western Europe and certainly Communist Europe enacted gun control. You can legislate for inanimate objects.

But not for ideas.

I'm not sure we should think of legislating on ideas.

Then you start telling people what ideas they can and cannot talk about.

A gun is a lump of metal with bits and bullets. It;s designed to kill- but it does not pull its own trigger.

**Alrock** · 15-Dec-15, 11:23

Originally Posted by John Little

Oh I agree with that- as in the States- religion is a personal matter and one for parents and family....

No it's not. It is meant to be under the constitution but it creeps into many aspects of life, from teaching creationism as a science to constant mentioning of God in all sorts of places, including their pledge of allegiance... "one Nation under God"...

Originally Posted by John Little

...I'm not sure we should think of legislating on ideas.

Then you start telling people what ideas they can and cannot talk about...

No, you can't tell people what to think, but you can legislate over the dissemination of ideas, we already do, sexism, racism, white supremacy... etc...

Originally Posted by John Little

...A gun is a lump of metal with bits and bullets. It;s designed to kill- but it does not pull its own trigger.

A book of religion is a lump of paper covered in words. It's designed to make you feel right whilst everybody else is wrong, it helps to dehumanize the unbeliever making it easier to pull the trigger by giving justification to the act.

**John Little** · 15-Dec-15, 12:34

Point one - you are right - but it should not.

Point two - I concede. You are quite correct in that there are ideas that are outside social morality and we do legislate against them. It is society at different times in History that decides what is acceptable or permissible or not.

Point three I do not agree. Religion is concepts and ideas. They may be written in a book. You could then smash someone's head in with the book but it would not be the book that killed them but the person using the book as a tool. They could just as well use a stone or a knife or a club.

The weapon does not kill- human will and bloodlust kills. You may kill someone with a ballpoint but it is harder than with a gun.

A gun is specifically designed to kill. To avoid its misuse by the small percentage of nut-cases in the world it is sensible to limit their supply by law. We do not really, or should not, desire to live in a society where it is necessary to go armed. This is why gentlemen do not carry swords and fight duel any more.

Society sets the rules. Human desire kills. It makes sense to limit the instruments of easy killing.

**sids** · 15-Dec-15, 13:44

Originally Posted by Genesis 38

10 And the thing which he did displeased the Lord: wherefore he slew him also.

....................................

**Alrock** · 15-Dec-15, 14:33

Most people with guns do not go out & kill...

Is takes a "nutter" (as you put it) to actually go out & kill..
Human empathy is a strong force that binds us all together as a species that prevents the world turning into a bloodbath...
To get around this problem of empathy then religion is one of the most powerful tools out there (though not the only one, many other forms of propaganda also work), by dehuminizing the "unbeliever" you are effectivle bypassing the empathy circuitry of the brain & killing an unbeliever is no different than stepping on a cockroach.

**John Little** · 15-Dec-15, 15:17

Then you may call it what you wish - for religion is only a label.
If people go out and kill in the name of an ideology then it does not have to be religion but an idea like Nazism or Communism.

Arguably you could say that those are quasi religions.

It is rather then not the idea that kills but the action which rises out of the idea?

**Alrock** · 15-Dec-15, 15:41

Religion is not a label (though the differnt forms could be described as labels (Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc...)), it is a belief in the unprovable & highly unlikely, what you do with that belief could be described as an ideology.

**John Little** · 15-Dec-15, 16:07

That's interesting.

So an ideology is formed out of belief; and that of course explains sects and denominations too.

So in speaking of what motivates people to do bad things or to kill people, we are not really looking at religion but interpretation/ misinterpretation of religion.

Which is done by humans for a variety of reasons.

So it is not the idea of religion that kills but what humans choose to do with it?

**Alrock** · 15-Dec-15, 16:13

So, going full circle we're back to...

It's not guns that kill but what humans choose to do with them...

**Janmac101** · 15-Dec-15, 16:40

Perhaps....To each his/her own decision.
[People generally must believe in something....
e.g. Alcoholics Anon and
The Masonic Lodge to name two.

If we do not believe then we do not do our best. It brings success