Named person scheme falls apart under BBC interrogation

[rob murray]

I had been involved in secondary schools all over the highlands for 7 years during the 2002-2009 period, delivering as part of a team The Hot House Youth Challenge programme ( basically an ICT ideas / innovation development project, one of the sponsors being Microsoft, our company were a Microft Gold partner, hence my partial involvement in the programme ) and experienced all kinds of teachers / heads etc....some ( mostly younger teachers ) were very enthusiastic in their duties, others were "dodgers" doing as little to get by as possible, others were clearly burnt out as its the nature of the profession ie start gung ho and enthusiastic when your younger and then through time / expereince / usually bad management / messed about by HC / stupid curriculum changes etc become jaded and burnt out and generally disinterested, doing your time until an early retiement. Teachers have their own problems and issues to deal with, and you cannot guarantee that 100% of teachers will effectively engage in the named persons process, they are human after all and no system is ever perfect.

[rob murray]

How old are you two? You are both older than me and therefore you are both Old enough to know that what happened then doesn't happen now.

Or maybe, you are SO old that you have no idea what is happening in schools today, don't understand the training teachers undergo, don't know how today's recruitment practices work, haven't set foot in a school for years lol.

You know what, many of these comments mirror the argument that I heard at the NO2NP meeting I attended.


It goes something like this ....


MY family doesn't need a named person. We are a NICE family with GOOD morals and we are GOOD parents.

SOME families of course need help or action but that's THEM. THEY should have a named person WE should not have a named person.

Thing is, how do you know which family is which. Go on, both of you I'd be delighted for you to tell me how you can tell "them" from "us"?

The named person is a universal service available to every child when needed. If it's not needed it does nothing. You don't seem to be able to grasp that.

Do you not think that you remarks in your post can be seen from some quarters as being cheeky, condesceding and dare I say it " know it all"......"Or maybe, you are SO old that you have no idea what is happening in schools today, don't understand the training teachers undergo, don't know how today's recruitment practices work, haven't set foot in a school for years lol".

When was the last time you engaged with a secondary school yourself ???

[squidge]

There is training for promoted posts. There is CPD, there is child protection training and a variety of other training that teachers do, particularly when they are in a promoted post.

This is is not simply about child sexual abuse though is it? And whilst they may not ask a child in that situation may display a change in behaviour which is more likely to be identified and acted upon today than it ever was.

BT you havent answered my question - how would you choose which families should have a named person and which should not.

The indicators are exactly that. You would assess a child by looking at the overall picture. Indeed schools work towards these for every child in everything they do. They are part of the aims and values of every school. Only when a concern is raised would an individual child be "assessed" in greater depth.

I have two happy healthy children at primary school. P2 and P4. What do you think the Named Person is doing with or to my children on a day to day basis that should give me cause for concern.

When I was pregnant with my last child I was both old (45) and fat - both causes for concern. My named person was the midwife what do you think the midwife did as a named person that I should have been alarmed about?

Once Fi was born and I had another named person - the health visitor what do you think was happening with that health visitor as my child's named person?

[squidge]

Do you not think that you remarks in your post can be seen from some quarters as being cheeky, condesceding and dare I say it " know it all"......"Or maybe, you are SO old that you have no idea what is happening in schools today, don't understand the training teachers undergo, don't know how today's recruitment practices work, haven't set foot in a school for years lol".

When was the last time you engaged with a secondary school yourself ???

Pfft I already know you can't take a wee joke - was the LoL not enough of a sign it was a wee jest? I don't know it all Rob as you and BT are fond of telling me at every available opportunity. You often point out how stupid supporters of the SNP are and clearly don't understand economics and BT thinks that no one who has not been in the armed forces and serving all over the world knows nothing anout anything.

A secondary school? Well after 15 years of being involved in secondary schools my middle boy left Two years ago. You?

[rob murray]

There is training for promoted posts. There is CPD, there is child protection training and a variety of other training that teachers do, particularly when they are in a promoted post.

This is is not simply about child sexual abuse though is it? And whilst they may not ask a child in that situation may display a change in behaviour which is more likely to be identified and acted upon today than it ever was.

BT you havent answered my question - how would you choose which families should have a named person and which should not.

The indicators are exactly that. You would assess a child by looking at the overall picture. Indeed schools work towards these for every child in everything they do. They are part of the aims and values of every school. Only when a concern is raised would an individual child be "assessed" in greater depth.

I have two happy healthy children at primary school. P2 and P4. What do you think the Named Person is doing with or to my children on a day to day basis that should give me cause for concern.

When I was pregnant with my last child I was both old (45) and fat - both causes for concern. My named person was the midwife what do you think the midwife did as a named person that I should have been alarmed about?

Once Fi was born and I had another named person - the health visitor what do you think was happening with that health visitor as my child's named person?

You state : There is training for promoted posts. There is CPD, there is child protection training and a variety of other training that teachers do, particularly when they are in a promoted post" : there is a vast difference between being made aware through training and actually competently discharging these "skills" for real, as I said in my post teachers / promoted posts as well ( they have the worst of both worlds ie delaing with the SMT : senior management team and line managing their staff with their issues ) have a lot on their plate they are human and have issues as well. Time is another scarce reource will involved teachers, promoted or otherwise really have the tme on top of alll other duties to activley see thnigs through ie particpate in "a joined up approach" ???? As I said fine in theory but no system is perfect and when it comes down to it education and teachers ( of all levels ) have been a political football for long enough. You cannot guarantee that 100% of teachers will effectively engage in the named persons process. JUst my opinions mind.

[squidge]

You are absolutely right Rob. You can't. And no system is perfect. But is the answer to do nothing? We have in place now a system and we will need to train, monitor, motivate, measure performance and develop this service as it goes along. You know how that works Rob. I bet you do that every day with your staff and your company. Do you decide not to implement change which will improve services because a small percentage of your staff will find it difficult? Might need training? Might need work to motivate them? Because it's hard work? I bet you don't lol

[rob murray]

Pfft I already know you can't take a wee joke - was the LoL not enough of a sign it was funny? I don't know it all Rob as you and BT are find of telling me at every available opportunity. You often point out how stupid supporters of the SNP are and that I clearly don't understand economics and BT thinks that no one who has not been in the armed forces and shot people knows nothing anout anything.

A secondary school? Well after 15 years of being involved in secondary schools my middle boy left Two years ago. You?

STop playing the victim, inferring people are gangin up on you ie me and BT....I purposefully kept out this thread until the obvious point ( well to me ) that teachers / promoted or not may well not have the time to engage fully in the process, and education should stop being used as a political football. As for expereince can you not read ? How about 3 kids spanning 16 years and active inside working with school staff for nearly 7 years........oh but I accpet that I really know nothing about anything being non SNP.

[cptdodger]

There is training for promoted posts. There is CPD, there is child protection training and a variety of other training that teachers do, particularly when they are in a promoted post.

This is is not simply about child sexual abuse though is it? And whilst they may not ask a child in that situation may display a change in behaviour which is more likely to be identified and acted upon today than it ever was.

No it's not just sexual abuse, which I also pointed out. That child/children would have been displaying changes in behaviour before the "named persons" legislation was dreamt up.

I am not talking about teacher's training in general, because they had that before this legislation.

I want to know do these named persons regardless which profession they are in, all attend a specific training scheme in order to become a " named person" ?

[rob murray]

You are absolutely right Rob. You can't. And no system is perfect. But is the answer to do nothing? We have in place now a system and we will need to train, monitor, motivate, measure performance and develop this service as it goes along. You know how that works Rob. I bet you do that every day with your staff and your company. Do you decide not to implement change because a small percentage of your staff will find it difficult? Might need training? Might need work to motivate them? I bet you don't lol

Yes as regards the company as if we dont make as an example big changes people suffer ie company will take a hit...leading to job cuts etc, but I feel for teachers and question if they have the time or will be given time to be trained properly, and in some cases give the actual committment to fully engage, also performance measurement...another set of performance measures ?? .....to be honest I feel that what will emerge is a paper trail : ie a local school policy, and a box ticking exercise, incororated into existing school inspection criteria. Creating a few QA jobs along the way.

[squidge]

STop playing the victim, inferring people are gangin up on you ie me and BT....I purposefully kept out this thread until the obvious point ( well to me ) that teachers / promoted or not may well not have the time to engage fully in the process, and education should stop being used as a political football. As for expereince can you not read ? How about 3 kids spanning 16 years and active inside working with school staff for nearly 7 years........as for your line "You often point out how stupid supporters of the SNP are"....no I dont, but you seem to infer from posting that I do...... and that I clearly don't understand economics....by your own admission you dont ..... and BT thinks that no one who has not been in the armed forces and shot people knows nothing anout anything.....I will BTG to answer this impertinence himself

And away we go again! I'm not inferring people are ganging up on me and you were right. My comment about BT was a little harsh - I have changed it and I'm sorry if it was "impertinent".
But you know what Rob, you ARE fond of reminding me that you think I know nothing. That doesn't make me a victim of anything. It's a just a fact. It doesn't hurt my feelings honey, nor does it make me feel attacked- it is what it is.

Still no one hAs answered my question about how to decide who should have a named person and who should not have one.

The tickie boxes thing is not what has happened though. Remember we have been running with this system in Highland for five years now.

Im on my holidays and about to set off to another place which might not have wifi so probably won't be around for a few days again. Still I'm glad I popped in and at least ruffled your feathers lol

Taraaaa love

[rob murray]

And away we go again! I'm not inferring people are ganging up on me and you were right. My comment about BT was a little harsh - I have changed it and I'm sorry if it was "impertinent".
But you know what Rob, you ARE fond of reminding me that you think I know nothing. That doesn't make me a victim of anything. It's a just a fact. It doesn't hurt my feelings honey, nor does it make me feel attacked- it is what it is.

Still no one hAs answered my question about how to decide who should have a named person and who should not have one.

The tickie boxes thing is not what has happened though. Remember we have been running with this system in Highland for five years now.

Im on my holidays and about to set off to another place which might not have wifi so probably won't be around for a few days again. Still I'm glad I popped in and at least ruffled your feathers lol

Taraaaa love

I dont, you infer this..and interpret that I am saying "you know nothing" why dont you examine your "percpetive and interpretative skills" be more confident in your abilties as when it comes down you can wipe the floor with me on political consitutional issues anyday of the week. SHow some more belief and confidence in yourself. I really believe given current issues in schools, and lest face it theyre a mess...... that what will emerge is ultimatley a box ticking exercise heaped on guidance / learning suport staff who have enough on their plates, so lets wait and see the eventual outcome. Enjoy your hoilday.

[BetterTogether]

Well I shall just ignore the unwarranted personal attack.
You keep asking me how I would assess a child at risk.

To be honest it's not my area of knowledge I've no training in that area.

Can I refer you back to cases in Scotland where at risk children already in the system have been massively failed and ended up dead, unfortunately yes I can.
What this shows to me is that those supposedly already in a position to be looking after these poor children are failing in their duties of care.

So what is suggested is we expand an already failing system, stretch the resources even further give the staff even greater case loads and say, hey that should do the job now we've covered everyone just in case. Will it make those at risk safer.
No I very much doubt it will.
Will it create more problems than it solves.
More than likely.
Will those adept at lying through their back teeth to throw the people involved suddenly stop, of course not it will just make it even harder for those already pressed with heavy workloads to see the wood for the trees.

[BetterTogether]

The latest update is the Scottish Government has cancelled the expert steering group set up to help implement Gifrec and due to run until Aug 2016

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/621...ring-guardians

[rob murray]

The latest update is the Scottish Government has cancelled the expert steering group set up to help implement Gifrec and due to run until Aug 2016

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/621...ring-guardians

This is really really unbelievable : "If child protection concerns expressed by senior police officers are being swept under the rug, what hope do we have that the Government will listen to anyone? Public anger against this scheme is growing as pilot schemes reveal the problems of implementing the Named Person. So far the Government seem bent on pursuing it at all costs and against all objections. It’s time they listened to parents, police, social workers, teachers and all the others who have serious questions about the Named Person." with the majority theyve got why dont they do things above board, of course its all a pack of anti scottish / anti SNP treachorous lies spread by tories and and other quislings.

[rob murray]

I had been involved in secondary schools all over the highlands for 7 years during the 2002-2009 period, delivering as part of a team The Hot House Youth Challenge programme ( basically an ICT ideas / innovation development project, one of the sponsors being Microsoft, our company were a Microft Gold partner, hence my partial involvement in the programme ) and experienced all kinds of teachers / heads etc....some ( mostly younger teachers ) were very enthusiastic in their duties, others were "dodgers" doing as little to get by as possible, others were clearly burnt out as its the nature of the profession ie start gung ho and enthusiastic when your younger and then through time / expereince / usually bad management / messed about by HC / stupid curriculum changes etc become jaded and burnt out and generally disinterested, doing your time until an early retiement. Teachers have their own problems and issues to deal with, and you cannot guarantee that 100% of teachers will effectively engage in the named persons process, they are human after all and no system is ever perfect.

According to the express article head teachers are being overburdened with related paperwork exactly as I predicted above. Of course the head teachers are work shy uncommitted quislings bent on making this fail for their own political reasons....or maybe its all true, all depends on how weher you bash yer egg open ?? This named person stuff is exactly like police scotland, we didnt want a single police force it was forced on us, and so will the named person procedure / policy. Democracy..... ach well theyve the power they can do what they like, sod all I can do except moan on here, for all thats worth.