Also Today

[cptdodger]

I'd say the death of a 3 year old plus 2500 others is the greater picture.

Okay, let's put it another way, what would prevent, or have prevented the deaths of a 3 year old and another 2500 people? What would have stopped them paying people smugglers thousands of pounds (or whatever their currency is) ? What would have prevented and prevent thousands of people risking their lives fleeing their countries in boats/dinghy's, basically anything they can get their hands on whether it is sea worthy or not?

In my opinion, it is getting the root of the problem, or the reason it is happening sorted out. How they accomplish that I do not know, I am not a politician or a world leader, but unless this is done, and rapidly, thousands upon thousands more will die, they will not stop coming. It is all very well and good saying Britain should take more refugees, but they are dying, literally to get here. Why can't any of you understand that?

[Rheghead]

Okay, let's put it another way, what would prevent, or have prevented the deaths of a 3 year old and another 2500 people? What would have stopped them paying people smugglers thousands of pounds (or whatever their currency is) ? What would have prevented and prevent thousands of people risking their lives fleeing their countries in boats/dinghy's, basically anything they can get their hands on whether it is sea worthy or not?

In my opinion, it is getting the root of the problem, or the reason it is happening sorted out. How they accomplish that I do not know, I am not a politician or a world leader, but unless this is done, and rapidly, thousands upon thousands more will die, they will not stop coming. It is all very well and good saying Britain should take more refugees, but they are dying, literally to get here. Why can't any of you understand that?

I would say a concerted international response with proper transport from Syria and Libya etc to properly supplied and funded refugee facilities would have saved that child's life.

We cannot stop these people trying to make it across. If our government is happy to just accomodate those that make the crossing then it makes me think that our government are happy for thousands to run the gauntlet as a means of a cost cutting exercise.

[theone]

We cannot stop these people trying to make it across. If our government is happy to just accomodate those that make the crossing then it makes me think that our government are happy for thousands to run the gauntlet as a means of a cost cutting exercise.

And there is the crux of the matter.

We're 'rewarding' the law breakers. Those who have paid people traffickers, organised criminals, thousands to smuggle them on boats or in tucks.Those leaving Turkey on inflatable boats with no lifejackets. Those refusing to claim asylum on their entry point to the EU (as genuine asylum seekers should by law) but demanding to get to Sweden, the UK or Germany because Greece, Hungary or Italy isn't 'what they want'.

Lets help those not 'running the gauntlet', lets help those at home in Syria or Lybia who don't want to break the law, can't afford to pay the criminals, or those who value their home and country and want to stay and make it better.

[cptdodger]

I would say a concerted international response with proper transport from Syria and Libya etc to properly supplied and funded refugee facilities would have saved that child's life.

We cannot stop these people trying to make it across. If our government is happy to just accomodate those that make the crossing then it makes me think that our government are happy for thousands to run the gauntlet as a means of a cost cutting exercise.

From what I have read, it appears to me that it is once the people are in Europe, be it Greece, Calais, wherever it is they land, those will be the ones Britain and other countries will take. As I said though, the majority are dying on the way there. I am no expert, but I highly doubt a European presence would be allowed in Syria or Lybia in order to transport refugees out of those countries.

[squidge]

These poor people HAVE to pay the smugglers, they have to get on the boats, into the lorries, they have to and there are two reasons for that.

One is that there is no other way to get out - to get to Europe. They can't jump on a plane to land at Heathrow there are no safe routes for refugees because so few countries are recognising them as refugees.

The second reason is that it is better to take their chances that way than stay - the situation is so bad that they cannot remain in their homes. Their children are in worse danger in Syria than in a dodgy boat. Their own lives their children's lives are so precarious where they live that leaving is the only choice. If you understand that. If you can imagine the terror, the panic, the dreadful dreadful fear that these people must be feeling then you can start to understand why they take that risk.

This isn't some fear of murder and rape that we all have when our children aren't back when they say they will be, real though that is, thankfully most of us never have to see that through to its worst conclusion. This is fear like that, 1000 times worse than that every minute of every day. Even in your bed, if you are lucky to have a house still standing, you are frightened of the door going in, the chemical attack, the militia, the government, the butchering of children, the gang rape of a young girl.

Leaving for Europe stops feeling like you put your children at risk and starts to feel like the only way to keep them safe. Understand that and you can see that the "fault" for this crisis lies not with the refugees themselves but with governments that KNOW these people are refugees but fail to provide safe routes, refugee facilities, evacuations and planned dispersal. We absolutely HAVE to work to improve the situation in Syria and the Middle East but not to the exclusion of dealing with the human crisis.Just think about it.

[squidge]

The BBC have been roundly criticised for this but it's an interesting concept which gives you the chance to think about the. Decisions facing these refugees. I don't know what I think about it but you might find it interesting

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-32057601

[cptdodger]

And there is the crux of the matter.

We're 'rewarding' the law breakers. Those who have paid people traffickers, organised criminals, thousands to smuggle them on boats or in tucks.Those leaving Turkey on inflatable boats with no lifejackets. Those refusing to claim asylum on their entry point to the EU (as genuine asylum seekers should by law) but demanding to get to Sweden, the UK or Germany because Greece, Hungary or Italy isn't 'what they want'.

Lets help those not 'running the gauntlet', lets help those at home in Syria or Lybia who don't want to break the law, can't afford to pay the criminals, or those who value their home and country and want to stay and make it better.

You explain it better than I do. This is from the BBC News website -

David Cameron has said that "taking more and more" people will not solve the problem, and the focus should be on bringing "peace and stability" to war-ravaged parts of the world people were fleeing from, such as Syria.


Immigration Minister James Brokenshire said the UK had contributed £900m in humanitarian aid to help with the Syrian crisis.


People on here are quick enough to condemn the benefit cuts, the bedroom tax and so on, basically they blame Westminster for everything, but, where do they think the £900m is coming from? Something has to give.

[BetterTogether]

Boy boy. What a nasty bit of work you are Mr Together

Oh BT! I guess we have already established you think it's impossible to do more than one thing at once. Fortunately most of us are able to do a few things at once. What a spiteful thing you are. I hope the tide is turning BT but if it's not I'll keep juggling stuff to make time for this until it does. After all it's not like it's just me. There are LOADS of us!

It really doesn't take you oh so caring people to resort to name calling when someone disagrees with your standpoint. I just happen to not swallow every drop of media hysteria that you do and happen to believe that a different approach is required rather than just allowing every person turning up and telling the same story deserves a lifetimes access to Europe. I haven't once said those worth do not deserve asylum but I'm also realistic enough to accept that not everyone is telling the truth and using the situation to their own advantage. It's not as though Economic Migrants are a new phenomenon.

These poor people HAVE to pay the smugglers, they have to get on the boats, into the lorries, they have to and there are two reasons for that. One is that there is no other way to get out - to get to Europe. They can't jump on a plane to land at Heathrow there are no safe routes for refugees because so few countries are recognising them as refugees. The second reason is that it is better to take their chances that way than stay - the situation is so bad that they cannot remain in their homes. Their children are in worse danger in Syria than in a dodgy boat. Their own lives their children's lives are so precarious where they live that leaving is the only choice. If you understand that. If you can imagine the terror, the panic, the dreadful dreadful fear that these people must be feeling then you can start to understand why they take that risk. This isn't some fear of murder and rape that we all have when our children aren't back when they say they will be, real though that is, thankfully most of us never have to see that through to its worst conclusion. This is fear like that, 1000 times worse than that every minute of every day. Even in your bed, if you are lucky to have a house still standing, you are frightened of the door going in, the chemical attack, the militia, the government, the butchering of children, the gang rape of a young girl. Leaving for Europe stops feeling like you put your children at risk and starts to feel like the only way to keep them safe. Understand that and you can see that the "fault" for this crisis lies not with the refugees themselves but with governments that KNOW these people are refugees but fail to provide safe routes, refugee facilities, evacuations and planned dispersal. We absolutely HAVE to work to improve the situation in Syria and the Middle East but not to the exclusion of dealing with the human crisis.Just think about it.

Squidge you really ought to brush up on your geographic knowledge before spouting off hysterical posts about how people can't get from Syria without jumping on a boat there are land routes which are far less treachorus than cutting across the Mediterranean.
You can quite readily access Turkey from Syria or they could go to Iran or Egypt, Saudi Arabia all countries which are culturally more similar to them than Europe.
So please stop the melodrama and start realising that yes Syria is having a civil war, but the route across the Mediterranean is by far the most dangerous route you can choose to use.
How about you rant at why the countries that surround Syria aren't doing their bit by allowing refugees to enter them. What we are dealing with is the work of organised criminals exploiting these people for profit. Imagine how those criminals run their hands in glee when soft liberal westerners buy hook line and sinker into their cynical creation of a very nice big business raking in millions to the very people they are fleeing from.

Try checking a map out it may help you understand the realities. Strange how people fly from here to Turkey and walk across the border to Syria but you seem to think they can only escape by boat.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/...215ea72c?hl=en

[BetterTogether]

Here's a BBC article on the gulf states not taking refugees

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34132308

Another on fake Syrian passports being sold

http://www.politico.eu/article/migra...quest-frontex/

And another describing US intelligence hearing plans to smuggle ISIS into Europe using refugees as a Trojan horse

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/isis-terror...europe-1468701

[EyeCarntSpell]

I see the usual bleeding hearts are getting all in a tizzy about the picture of a dead child on a beach, what a bunch of media puppets. The simple fact is that kid is dead because his father is a complete and utter idiot .. simple as that. The family were NOT in Syria, they were living in Istanbul. They were safe. They had tried to claim asylum in Canada and been refused. They could have got a train from Turkey, where they were safe, to anywhere. So the father, in his infinite wisdom then decided to float his kids on a tractor tyre without lifejackets to god knows where. And his kids and wife died, and apparently its all our fault even though this sorry saga reads like a Darwin Award. I have thought for a while that large portions of the human race is just a failed experiment, and watching the reactions of some people just proves it. And what does caring Dad do after his actions have resulted in the deaths of his family ?? .. he decides to back to Syria to bury them. The same country that is apparently too dangerous for him to stay in. And people are buying this ?? .. its like watching clowns stagger through a minefield. Funny but ultimately tragic.

Children have been dying on these routes for months but put a picture in the paper of a child killed by his father stupidity and watch the puppets dance. Its tragic watching your fellow humans go full retard to that extent. If a Brit living in Britian had taken his wife and two kids out on a tractor tyre at the beach in such a fashion and they died the same media would be baying for his blood. Still it allows people to rock up on Faceache and Twatter and feel all humanitarian and stuff doesnt it ??, its like the grief addicts at Shoreham lining up to mourn people they never knew nor cared about the day of the accident. They even played the Last Post, despite the fact all the victims were civilians.

Wake up idiots and smell the coffee. YOU are the same people who gave knowingly to Band Aid to feed the Ethiopians, and what happened there ?? .. well lets see. The Ethiopian President imposed a charge on the food aid and demanded it be distrubted by them. A large chunk is then bought by the Yemini's and finds its way to Saudi Arabia where it is used as subsidised wheat to counter the high cost of producing it there, however some of it is then sent back to Ethiopia as food aid. And Bob Geldof gets a knighthood. Well done bleeding hearts all you did was make a man happy to do nothing but watch his people starve rich. I was told that by a guy who was there in 1984.

These "migrants" have run out of their country after a CIVIL war and expect the rest of the world to just give them what they want when they want it. I have watched a lot of coverage and none of these people seem to be grateful to be safe. All I see is "I want, I want", on the BBC there was a clip of a man (and I use that word loosely) push a woman and a child to the ground and I swear it was for the benefit of the cameras. Cue the BBC cutting to the nasty Hungarian Police with batons. All their fault of course.

These people need to sod off home and sort their country out. All these young men of fighting age running away and expecting the rest of the world to put them up and gift them a new life, well Britian is broke. Where is the money going to come from ??, and these are just the tip of the iceberg. We made a rod for our own backs when we started doing the people traffickers job for them and giving their customers a lift with the grey funnel line. Seventy five years ago we had just declared war on Nazi Germany, we didnt round up the family and sod off to the first country we saw and then demand we be allowed to do what we damn well like. My grandad and millions others stood their ground and fought back, they didnt stick wife and kidlets on a tractor tyre and set paddling for Canada. Even if he did he would have remembered a life jacket if only for the kids. Still you only have to look at recent history to see the mentality, happy to band together and protest about cartoons but crying and whining for us to do their fighting when they are threatened a la Saudi when Saddam rocked up on the border. The really sick thing is that the same leftist hand wringing types getting all faux outraged over this situation caused by ISIS were the same ones complaining about Saddam, and he kept the very factions that became ISIS in check.

By the way how is the young British girl who was gang raped at Calais ??, not heard much about that in the Media .. I wonder why. Could it be because we cannot say anything nasty about these lovely people ??

No doubt Britian will take thousands. Cameron is a jellyfish. I saw we billet them with those shouting the loudest. See how keen they are when they are living with six people who care not a jot about them, their culture or their beliefs. Could be fun that. I live among arabs right now and believe me, if these "migrants" were being treated in the way I am out here at times there would be arms flying up left right and centre. Why do I do it ??, because I love my job. I help people on a daily basis and to me thats the most important thing. But it also means I get to see the very worst of humanity. Last week I airlifted an girl who had been gang raped by her uncle, cousin and two friends. She was thirteen. Her uncle was Syrian. Want him living next door to you ??

Hand wringers .. If you think that children killed through the stupidity of their parents and people who are perfectly safe acting like entitled ingrates is the worst life can offer you need to step away from the keyboard, dump the outrage and rhetoric and look at whats actually happening.

Thank God I am going to be in a remote area for the next six weeks, I wont have access to wifi or even Television. I wont be tempted to read some of the drivel on this subject.

[cptdodger]

I see the usual bleeding hearts are getting all in a tizzy about the picture of a dead child on a beach, what a bunch of media puppets. The simple fact is that kid is dead because his father is a complete and utter idiot .. simple as that. The family were NOT in Syria, they were living in Istanbul. They were safe. They had tried to claim asylum in Canada and been refused. They could have got a train from Turkey, where they were safe, to anywhere. So the father, in his infinite wisdom then decided to float his kids on a tractor tyre without lifejackets to god knows where. And his kids and wife died, and apparently its all our fault even though this sorry saga reads like a Darwin Award. I have thought for a while that large portions of the human race is just a failed experiment, and watching the reactions of some people just proves it. And what does caring Dad do after his actions have resulted in the deaths of his family ?? .. he decides to back to Syria to bury them. The same country that is apparently too dangerous for him to stay in. And people are buying this ?? .. its like watching clowns stagger through a minefield. Funny but ultimately tragic.

Children have been dying on these routes for months but put a picture in the paper of a child killed by his father stupidity and watch the puppets dance. Its tragic watching your fellow humans go full retard to that extent. If a Brit living in Britian had taken his wife and two kids out on a tractor tyre at the beach in such a fashion and they died the same media would be baying for his blood. Still it allows people to rock up on Faceache and Twatter and feel all humanitarian and stuff doesnt it ??, its like the grief addicts at Shoreham lining up to mourn people they never knew nor cared about the day of the accident. They even played the Last Post, despite the fact all the victims were civilians.

Wake up idiots and smell the coffee. YOU are the same people who gave knowingly to Band Aid to feed the Ethiopians, and what happened there ?? .. well lets see. The Ethiopian President imposed a charge on the food aid and demanded it be distrubted by them. A large chunk is then bought by the Yemini's and finds its way to Saudi Arabia where it is used as subsidised wheat to counter the high cost of producing it there, however some of it is then sent back to Ethiopia as food aid. And Bob Geldof gets a knighthood. Well done bleeding hearts all you did was make a man happy to do nothing but watch his people starve rich. I was told that by a guy who was there in 1984.

These "migrants" have run out of their country after a CIVIL war and expect the rest of the world to just give them what they want when they want it. I have watched a lot of coverage and none of these people seem to be grateful to be safe. All I see is "I want, I want", on the BBC there was a clip of a man (and I use that word loosely) push a woman and a child to the ground and I swear it was for the benefit of the cameras. Cue the BBC cutting to the nasty Hungarian Police with batons. All their fault of course.

These people need to sod off home and sort their country out. All these young men of fighting age running away and expecting the rest of the world to put them up and gift them a new life, well Britian is broke. Where is the money going to come from ??, and these are just the tip of the iceberg. We made a rod for our own backs when we started doing the people traffickers job for them and giving their customers a lift with the grey funnel line. Seventy five years ago we had just declared war on Nazi Germany, we didnt round up the family and sod off to the first country we saw and then demand we be allowed to do what we damn well like. My grandad and millions others stood their ground and fought back, they didnt stick wife and kidlets on a tractor tyre and set paddling for Canada. Even if he did he would have remembered a life jacket if only for the kids. Still you only have to look at recent history to see the mentality, happy to band together and protest about cartoons but crying and whining for us to do their fighting when they are threatened a la Saudi when Saddam rocked up on the border. The really sick thing is that the same leftist hand wringing types getting all faux outraged over this situation caused by ISIS were the same ones complaining about Saddam, and he kept the very factions that became ISIS in check.

By the way how is the young British girl who was gang raped at Calais ??, not heard much about that in the Media .. I wonder why. Could it be because we cannot say anything nasty about these lovely people ??

No doubt Britian will take thousands. Cameron is a jellyfish. I saw we billet them with those shouting the loudest. See how keen they are when they are living with six people who care not a jot about them, their culture or their beliefs. Could be fun that. I live among arabs right now and believe me, if these "migrants" were being treated in the way I am out here at times there would be arms flying up left right and centre. Why do I do it ??, because I love my job. I help people on a daily basis and to me thats the most important thing. But it also means I get to see the very worst of humanity. Last week I airlifted an girl who had been gang raped by her uncle, cousin and two friends. She was thirteen. Her uncle was Syrian. Want him living next door to you ??

Hand wringers .. If you think that children killed through the stupidity of their parents and people who are perfectly safe acting like entitled ingrates is the worst life can offer you need to step away from the keyboard, dump the outrage and rhetoric and look at whats actually happening.

Thank God I am going to be in a remote area for the next six weeks, I wont have access to wifi or even Television. I wont be tempted to read some of the drivel on this subject.

Just you wait for the backlash to commence, but very, very well put.

[squidge]

It really doesn't take you oh so caring people to resort to name calling when someone disagrees with your standpoint. I just happen to not swallow every drop of media hysteria that you do and happen to believe that a different approach is required rather than just allowing every person turning up and telling the same story deserves a lifetimes access to Europe. I haven't once said those worth do not deserve asylum

This was your standpoint as I remember and every post you make , makes it absolutely clear that you think these people do not, should not be given asylum n Europe and in Britain


.

Stop selling inflatable boats to the Middle East or African Countries. Definitely don't build any tunnels. Also really high Walls Or Fences seem to work quite well. And I do mean really High !That's like really really really High oh and wide as well !I've also heard Boris has a couple of water canon sitting around not doing much maybe they could lend them to the Greeks, as they are skint and jet them back across quickly !

But of course this isn't you saying they don't deserve asylum!

all countries which are culturally more similar to them than Europe.

Many refugees are in the countries of which you speak Turkey is struggling as we have already discussed several times, but actually this maybe the crux of the matter. You say They DO deserve asylum... But only in "culturally similar" countries. Britain shouldn't take them cos they are different - is that it? Not the same as us. How EXACTLY are they not the same as us, colour? Religion? Culture? Do they wear different clothes? Eat different food?

You know what BT that dead little boy yesterday didn't look much different than my little boy - he had 2 legs, 2 arms and he wore little shoes and shorts - you know the difference?

He was dead!

[cptdodger]

From what I have read, it appears to me that it is once the people are in Europe, be it Greece, Calais, wherever it is they land, those will be the ones Britain and other countries will take. As I said though, the majority are dying on the way there. I am no expert, but I highly doubt a European presence would be allowed in Syria or Lybia in order to transport refugees out of those countries.

This morning on BBC Breakfast -

"David Cameron is expected to announce plans later to increase the number of refugees being allowed into the UK.

The extra refugees are expected to come from UN camps bordering Syria, and not from among people already in Europe."

So for all of you that think this is some sort of victory and it was people power that has persuaded Cameron to act, you have probably just condemned thousands more to die, because they will not stop coming and trying to gain entry to Europe anyway they can, be it on a boat not fit for purpose or in the back of a lorry. They will continue to pay the people smugglers every single penny they have, because they have been promised the world, well Britain anyway. So what has this achieved, absolutely nothing, Calais will remain the same, Hungary is still being bombarded - nothing has or will change.

[cptdodger]

And another describing US intelligence hearing plans to smuggle ISIS into Europe using refugees as a Trojan horse

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/isis-terror...europe-1468701

And this is what I was trying to explain earlier in this thread. This is a real fear for people here. Anybody that has watched the news in recent months can see what these "people" are capable of, they will stop at nothing.

[squidge]

It's a start and that's more than we had yesterday! The tide is starting to turn and that's better than yesterday.

Taking people from the camps actually offers them a safe route to asylum and might encourage more people not to travel, because, as I am sure you have been paying attention, I have been saying all along that the lack of safe routes forces people to take the routes they have been taking. It won't make any difference if he takes 25 though so we will wait and see what he thinks he can get away with whilst continuing to lobby for better

[cptdodger]

I don't know about anybody else on here, but if it was me that had pushed / campaigned for more refugees to be allowed into Britain, and the deaths in the thousands continued, because they will, then I would feel a bit uneasy about that. If they are only taking x amount from the camps, then anybody would be very naive to think that the rest of them will just give up and go home. It's fine though, as long as Britain is taking x amount of refugees, then the rest of the refugees who have already landed in Europe can rot. Britain has done its bit.

[BetterTogether]

If you recall Squidge I've said previously I've no problem with asylum but not permanent residence you seem to be unable to separate the two issues.

As it is asylum is relatively simple once you've escaped the oppressive regime you're fleeing.

You once again go down your painting every thing in black and white scenarios the very thing you accuse me of all the time.
You mumble when it comes to dealing with the whole issue and keep claiming that the tide is turning and some great moral victory has been won.
Here's the reality a petition online doesn't really prove much the vast majority of people haven't signed it and like myself a very large percentage remain cynical as to the origins of these people.
You seem to be able to sing one tune and that's the one that fits your agenda.
You fail to deal with the real issue and as usual provide a very thin sticking plaster that will keep falling off and need replacing.
As I happens cultural identity is very important to a very high percentage of people ( amazes me I even have to mention this to an ardent supporter of independence ) religious differences are a large part of why these people are fleeing why would you place people of a religion largely intolerant of western lifestyles into Europe when there are countries if infinitely more suitable for them than anywhere in Europe.
Once again you try focussing one the one little boy I keep asking you what about everyone else dying you seem unable or unwilling to talk about them as well, just keep focussing on one person and try a huge guilt trip on everyone.

Your politics are cynical and venal they ultimately fail to deal with the big issues and focus on what's populist I can only assume you view yourself as some kind of Mother Theresa figure who by handing out a few tit bits from your already groaning table of western comforts salves their conscience.

Why instead of constantly lecturing us all on what we should be doing actually go get a taste of the sharp end.
Oh wait you'll find some flimsy excuse not to and then waffle as usual.
The reality is all you do is talk more hot air than comes from a Buffaloes backside after eating it's way through a bean field.
Lets hear how you intend to lobby Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the other very rich Middle eastern counties to help. How about you Lobby Russia or China to take more. Oh you won't because they wouldn't listen to you and you can't be bothered. As I've said before all you do is latch on to populist agendas to salve your conscience.

[davth]

You have to applaud the PM for his decision yesterday.I have no qualm with us accepting folk from who are still stranded in warzones.Also it means that the illegal people traffickers have not succeeded in their promises to the syrians.I think there will be a better chance of the folk in Syria still having their identities to confirm that they are who they say they are also.Go on squidge congratulate the government, I dare you😀

[BetterTogether]

It's a start and that's more than we had yesterday! The tide is starting to turn and that's better than yesterday.Taking people from the camps actually offers them a safe route to asylum and might encourage more people not to travel, because, as I am sure you have been paying attention, I have been saying all along that the lack of safe routes forces people to take the routes they have been taking. It won't make any difference if he takes 25 though so we will wait and see what he thinks he can get away with whilst continuing to lobby for better

But you haven't been saying that all along you've said time and again they have no option but to get in boats. Come on we don't all have the memories of goldfish. You're changing your story as people provide more and more proof you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

[BetterTogether]

What about the issues in Hungary they've made the journey they've been offered safe refuge in a camp but are now causing civil unrest because they will only accept Germany. That's some very picky refugees with very distinct agendas not as we'd be led to believe people fleeing for their lives.