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  1. #41
    BetterTogether is offline Banned (Sock Puppet of previously banned user)
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob murray View Post
    Your well clued up on middle east geo politics....tribal hatred etc. Iran...a "Black Swan"......can cause economic havoc ie US sanctions are in process of being lifted, which means Iran can flood the market with more oil....lowers prices even more.....this hits the Saudis who are living off oil reserve money / stash whilst the oil price is low, but that cannot go on indefinitly, apparently the Koran refers to the black sand that enriches the middle east will eventually destroy it....or something along that lines. Have you heard of this ??
    One aspect that I've always remembered is this.
    In Islam you are always protected as a guest whilst staying under their roof and will be well cared for fed and watered as the prophet " peace be upon him" would have done.

    But the second you step out of that place in the morning all deals are off.

    My own experiences are they don't lie and speak honestly but what they may mean with deep heartfelt desire one second isn't the same as the next second.
    Things change rapidly so do their views.

    It doesn't mean they've lied they meant it when they said it, then they changed their mind.

  2. #42
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    The collection is someone's personal address and I wouldnt give you access to it

    I understand the situation in the MIddle east and what is happening but these refugees are fleeing now. the majority are from Syria and they are dying now

    Only in your world is it an either or situation. We can help these refugees who need help NOW and we can tackle the issues they are fleeing from. We must do both if we are to resolve this issue but conflating and equating refugees to terrorists is a smokescreen

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by BetterTogether View Post
    For those of you unfamiliar but interested in the various branches of Islam and main differences this may help.


    http://contenderministries.org/islam/divisions.php
    And here was me thinking that the sunnis etc were all tribes when the reality is, now correct me if Ive got this wrong, that theyre all sub sections of Islam...all hating each other on doctrinal / religous grounds ???

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by cptdodger View Post
    While I don't claim to know the background as to why thousands of people are fleeing Syria, what I really don't understand is why so many people (as reported on the news) are desperately trying to get there from this country. And that includes entire families, if the conditions are that horrendous, why would anybody inflict that on their children?
    People go there to participate in the war going on, they dont see horrendous conditions only " a righteous war"

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by BetterTogether View Post
    For those of you unfamiliar but interested in the various branches of Islam and main differences this may help.


    http://contenderministries.org/islam/divisions.php
    So, which one of these divisions does the Islamic State, IS, ISIS, whatever they are calling themselves fall under ?

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by squidge View Post
    The collection is someone's personal address and I wouldnt give you access to it

    I understand the situation in the MIddle east and what is happening but these refugees are fleeing now. the majority are from Syria and they are dying now

    Only in your world is it an either or situation. We can help these refugees who need help NOW and we can tackle the issues they are fleeing from. We must do both if we are to resolve this issue but conflating and equating refugees to terrorists is a smokescreen
    How can we tackle the issues they are fleeing from, how do we stop a civil war / change extremist religous zealots into peaceful muslims ?? We can pledge money, send aid help, alleviate the misery in camps etc now whilst trying to get a pan EU / Middle east solution to take the displaced but the real issues....what can we do ????

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob murray View Post
    People go there to participate in the war going on, they dont see horrendous conditions only " a righteous war"
    And that, whether anybody likes it or not is a real fear for a lot of people in this country, how do you tell the difference between a genuine refugee and somebody that has been radicalised? That, cannot be swept under the carpet.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by cptdodger View Post
    And that, whether anybody likes it or not is a real fear for a lot of people in this country, how do you tell the difference between a genuine refugee and somebody that has been radicalised? That, cannot be swept under the carpet.
    Surely radicals will be staying put in Syria why would they want to leave ? Its the radicals in this country who want to go to Syria thats the problem.... theyre the type of people who committ mayhem, take your point though, we dont know how many bogus refugees there are ie radicals who want to gain entry into countries to create mayhem...thats whats a lot of people are frightened of...but theyve got to be a very small %....funny how attitudes differ cross EU, I loved the story about football fans in many german grounds at the week end with huge banners..." refugees welcome"...maybe German attitudes, partly because of their past history, are more tolerant, also funny how most refugees want to go to Germany. Sure there are anti refugee groups but these seem to be minority far right types.

  9. #49
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    There were banners in the UK too Rob....

    The reason why the refugees want to go to Germany is because Germany have suspended the need for Syrians to have visas to live there. That means that they are ENTITLED to settled in Germany without having to apply for asylum. In effect Germany has said " We accept that people coming from Syria are all refugees because of the situation in their country and we will allow them to stay here"

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by squidge View Post
    There were banners in the UK too Rob....

    The reason why the refugees want to go to Germany is because Germany have suspended the need for Syrians to have visas to live there. That means that they are ENTITLED to settled in Germany without having to apply for asylum. In effect Germany has said " We accept that people coming from Syria are all refugees because of the situation in their country and we will allow them to stay here"
    Where abouts... at what grounds are you refering to, I didnt see this make any news papers / no mention on line etc....huge difference in Germany.... just google "football grounds and banner for refugees"...its all Germany no mention of any UK grounds, didnt know that germany has suspended need for visa's, explains how migrants prefer germany.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob murray View Post
    Surely radicals will be staying put in Syria why would they want to leave ? Its the radicals in this country who want to go to Syria thats the problem.... theyre the type of people who committ mayhem, take your point though, we dont know how many bogus refugees there are ie radicals who want to gain entry into countries to create mayhem...thats whats a lot of people are frightened of...but theyve got to be a very small %....funny how attitudes differ cross EU, I loved the story about football fans in many german grounds at the week end with huge banners..." refugees welcome"...maybe German attitudes, partly because of their past history, are more tolerant, also funny how most refugees want to go to Germany. Sure there are anti refugee groups but these seem to be minority far right types.
    I sincerely hope you are right, and the radicals do want to stay in Syria, I just hope they don't view this crisis as a way of slipping in the back door, for want of a better expression. The London bombings of 2005 happened for a reason, I just hope it doesn't happen again.

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by cptdodger View Post
    I sincerely hope you are right, and the radicals do want to stay in Syria, I just hope they don't view this crisis as a way of slipping in the back door, for want of a better expression. The London bombings of 2005 happened for a reason, I just hope it doesn't happen again.
    SO do I hope radicals stay far away.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob murray View Post
    Where abouts... at what grounds are you refering to, I didnt see this make any news papers / no mention on line etc....huge difference in Germany.... just google "football grounds and banner for refugees"...its all Germany no mention of any UK grounds, didnt know that germany has suspended need for visa's, explains how migrants prefer germany.
    There are pictures circulating on social media which show "refugees Welcome" banners at celtic Park - on checking back i am not sure that they are from this weekend - they might be from earlier this year

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by squidge View Post
    There are pictures circulating on social media which show "refugees Welcome" banners at celtic Park - on checking back i am not sure that they are from this weekend - they might be from earlier this year
    Thanks check out german grounds... amazing stuff huge banners all in English...dunno if a side point was being made.

  15. #55
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    I have seen them Rob - the videos of people being welcomed in Austria this morning were amazing. Hundreds of people having to wait overnight in the train station and a local supermarket provided food, people brought camp beds for the mothers with children so they could have a decent nights sleep. In Germany the Authorities have been asking people to stop donating items for refugees because there is too much stuff. It was also good to see a passionate response from the Scottish Parliament today and several of Scotland's MPs say they would be happy to host refugees. Even Tory backbenchers are calling on David Cameron to do more. I feel like the tide is turning. Its been like a trickle, i have been all over the Highlands the last six weeks as I know you know and the local support has been wonderful but it feels like people are sitting up to take notice finally. maybe its to do with the politicians being back in Parliament so there is more to report but i dont care. Its really good

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by squidge View Post
    I have seen them Rob - the videos of people being welcomed in Austria this morning were amazing. Hundreds of people having to wait overnight in the train station and a local supermarket provided food, people brought camp beds for the mothers with children so they could have a decent nights sleep. In Germany the Authorities have been asking people to stop donating items for refugees because there is too much stuff. It was also good to see a passionate response from the Scottish Parliament today and several of Scotland's MPs say they would be happy to host refugees. Even Tory backbenchers are calling on David Cameron to do more. I feel like the tide is turning. Its been like a trickle, i have been all over the Highlands the last six weeks as I know you know and the local support has been wonderful but it feels like people are sitting up to take notice finally. maybe its to do with the politicians being back in Parliament so there is more to report but i dont care. Its really good
    From a human perspective yes genuinely very heart warming, politically Im making no comments other than what is needed is a joint EU / Middle East solution, points Ive made on this thread.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by cptdodger View Post
    So, which one of these divisions does the Islamic State, IS, ISIS, whatever they are calling themselves fall under ?
    Isis fall under the radical Sunni side of life.

  18. #58
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    It's all very well saying we should do more but this year is the first year we haven't taken more immigrants so a bit of political point scoring from Germany doesn't really carry much weight.

    France, Germany infact most of the European countries have much more land to resettle these people in and have previously done very little so maybe it's about time they did actually step up to the plate for a change.

    There is also plenty of room in other countries around the localised region which could do more but are doing nothing so it's a bit rich saying we should do more and more and more when those shouting for more have traditionally done very little.
    Another issue is a lot of people claiming to be Syrian refugees are from other countries but have destroyed their paperwork so as to be able to mix in.
    It's not a black and white situation and there are no black and white solutions.

    But the reality is other countries should step up and pull their weight instead of relying on the UKs traditionally openness to accept refugees.

    It's very easy to demand that the UK take more refugees but it's not going to be the Highlands that bears the brunt of the influx it will be the already densely populated cities and towns down south. Until you've experience of the problems this creates in some areas be very careful what you wish on others but don't have to deal with yourself.

    Imagine the outcry if Wick or Thurso suddenly had say 1,000 refugees injected into the community in fairly short order.
    Last edited by BetterTogether; 03-Sep-15 at 16:59.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by BetterTogether View Post
    Isis fall under the radical Sunni side of life.
    Ah right, thank you. Life would be so much simpler if everybody that was religious just followed one God.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by cptdodger View Post
    Ah right, thank you. Life would be so much simpler if everybody that was religious just followed one God.
    Technically Muslims, Christians and Jews do all follow the same God. Problem come in that the Jews don't accept Jesus was the son of God. The Muslims accept he was a prophet but Mohamed was also a prophet. Look at the multi factions you have within Christianity alone to see the problem it causes. One man interprets it one way another differently they can't agree so two new factions are created then it splits again and again. All the same one God all of them just as deluded about how they are right and everyone else is wrong. All claiming they want peace but constantly starting wars off down through the centuries and killing millions in the process. At the end of day not a shred of proof that God actually exists and isn't just an amalgam of previously held Gods rolled into one more easily digested and manipulated for whatever purpose you desire deity. Let's not forget the other religions Buddism and Hinduism. If I'm correct Hiduism is probably the older out of the Bunch. Buddism certainly predates Islam but was pushed out of its native country of origin Pakistan by Islam and off over to Tibet, China.

    Now don't even try to understand the various ethnic and tribal partitions of the Middle East, North Africa,Balkans and Indian Sub Continent or you'll really give yourself a headache. All divided by more petty rubbish than you'd care to know about and all out for a fight without too much of an excuse frequently using arguments that go back centuries.
    Last edited by BetterTogether; 03-Sep-15 at 18:08.

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