Asylum seekers/Refugees Calais

[squidge]

These Syrians without visas are refugees though Davth. We (Britain) have an international obligation to provide support for refugees. Looking after the UKs best interests includes meeting international obligations too, it is in the best interests of the UK surely to take its place in resolving international affairs. After all, if we (Britain) don't do that then we will become an irrelevance and our lorry drivers will still suffer, people will still die, and those sneaking into Britain to do harm will still sneak in because they will be able to hide themselves amongst the desperate more easily than if we were working with others to ensure that those people who need help get it.

[BetterTogether]

Unfortunately, I feel that you, Better Together, are the one who is constantly full of negativity and fear and maybe your experiences in the armed forces has made you so. But you know, from my reading of the posts on here, you repeatedly do what you accuse others of doing, putting words and meanings into the words of Squidge (and myself) that were not intended and belittling people who do not hold the same view as yourself and others. No wonder that not many post with the treatment that they receive on here- basically being hammered. For all you know, there may be many who take an opposing view to yourself just as I accept that there will be many cheering you on who also are not posting. Poor Squidge who, in your eyes, cannot have an opinion unless having first hand experience of every war zone and desperate situation throughout the globe and solutions to same and is judged to be 'opinionated'. Of course, you are not opinionated are you?''Are the Squidges and Fulmars of this world happy to appease their conscience at the cost of innocent lives within our own country. ''Please point out where I said this in any of my postings as I certainly cannot find a record of it and no, I believe, as you do in robust anti-terrorism measures and keeping people safe, whoever they happen to be. (A wee reminder as an aside; the 2007 atrocities (the worst the UK has seen), were not carried out by 'migrants' so far as I recall.Also, please tell me where I tried to foist my Christian beliefs on you or anyone else. I told you what the source of my motivation is, pure and simple. I know perfectly well that you hold those beliefs in contempt as you made it totally clear before when you spoke about 'Bronze Age' religions.So please, for the sake of everybody, just stop and be a little more considered and considerate.You can shout as loud as you like on here and think that having the last word means that you have somehow 'won' but the Politics section and this thread was meant to be a place of debate for folk of all different views. Since it is no longer that and continual wrangling on here is utterly pointless, then you rock on, as the saying goes.

Just to put you straight, Three of the bombers were British-born sons of Pakistani immigrants; Lindsay was a convert born in Jamaica.

So that's point one dealt with.

The abrahmaic religions have created more wars more death more suffering over the centuries than any lives they have saved infact you can lay part of the blame for today's problems in the Middle East at the door of Christianity and those oh so wonderful crusades undertaken in the name of Christianity.

If you don't want your religious beliefs challenged then don't throw them out there and use them in the debate you mention them so therefor you put them into the arena. The church May well,be important to you personally but across the nation attendance to churches is plummeting people have for quite some time stopped believing.

That's just the world we live in, I'm not going to complain about it especially as more and more priests are hauled up for child molestation, and people across the globe in various countries are punished for not following the tenets of religion.

Trying to enter a debate on immigration without knowing a single thing about the ethnicities, religions and motivations behind those trying to enter this country may seem jolly clever and appease certain sensibilities but it does very little for the good of this country.

Mewling like a bairn about robust political debate what do you expect everyone to agree with you and applaud your actions when quite a large percentage of the population vehemently disagree with your position.
I don't expect everyone on the org to agree with me and will always robustly debate the issues which I feel strongly about.
Those that disagree are fully capable of voicing their opinions and frequently do so, many prefer to just read and watch the debate unfold, but crying about it and trying to make capital out the fact that you're unable to swing everyone to your point of view throwing a little tantrum throwing your toys out of the pram, make a big fuss about leaving the discussion then returning shows more about yourself than I.

I'm not sure why you both feel the need to play the hard done by card everytime your points get hammered as you call it.

That's politics for you !

[squidge]

If the bombers were British born then they werent migrants surely?

[BetterTogether]

These Syrians without visas are refugees though Davth. We (Britain) have an international obligation to provide support for refugees. Looking after the UKs best interests includes meeting international obligations too, it is in the best interests of the UK surely to take its place in resolving international affairs. After all, if we (Britain) don't do that then we will become an irrelevance and our lorry drivers will still suffer, people will still die, and those sneaking into Britain to do harm will still sneak in because they will be able to hide themselves amongst the desperate more easily than if we were working with others to ensure that those people who need help get it.

Considering your well documented views on wishing for Independence how can we believe that anything you say is for the best interests of Great Britian, you've made it quite clear that you want nothing more than the dissolution of the Union. Surely your interest in Britian is to break it up not to see it strong and fulfilling international obligations. Seems you're trying to pull the same horse in two different directions.

[BetterTogether]

If the bombers were British born then they werent migrants surely?

Is Jamaica, Britian or do we need to brush up on geography a wee bit !

If you also notice I was quite clear two where British born sons of Pakistani Immigrants.

[davth]

These Syrians without visas are refugees though Davth. We (Britain) have an international obligation to provide support for refugees. Looking after the UKs best interests includes meeting international obligations too, it is in the best interests of the UK surely to take its place in resolving international affairs. After all, if we (Britain) don't do that then we will become an irrelevance and our lorry drivers will still suffer, people will still die, and those sneaking into Britain to do harm will still sneak in because they will be able to hide themselves amongst the desperate more easily than if we were working with others to ensure that those people who need help get it.

Are refugees not supposed to claim refugee status in the first safe country they find themselves in?

[squidge]

Not necessarily Davth, there are situations where that rule doesn't apply - if you google Dublin regulations or protocol you will find a whole range of information about it. As an example, for refugees entering via Greece then moving on to France before requesting asylum would not be returned to Greece because they cannot cope and are struggling. The point is though that refugees should not have to apply for asylum, they should be given it automatically because they should be internationally recognised as refugees and should be allocated to a specific country depending on whether they have links to a specific country or not.

Considering your well documented views on wishing for Independence how can we believe that anything you say is for the best interests of Great Britian, you've made it quite clear that you want nothing more than the dissolution of the Union. Surely your interest in Britian is to break it up not to see it strong and fulfilling international obligations. Seems you're trying to pull the same horse in two different directions.

BT we ( yes voters) did not achieve independence. I recognise that and as such understand that we (those of us that support Independence) need to work within the system that we (the UK) have, as part of the UK. I still want an independent Scotland but I know that will not happen anytime soon. I have, as you so often demand that we(those of us who campaigned for independence) should do... Got over it and moved on. You might like to try it yourself.

You actually initially said three were British born and one came to the UK when he was five. So three out of the four were British and not migrants. I'm not sure what the point of this is other than one out of the four was a migrant. In fact out of all the terrorist attacks since the Irish peace process, where convictions have taken place something like 20 of the perpetrators were British and 6 were born elsewhere.

[davth]

why do you discount the troubles?

[squidge]

Because I didn't have all night and it was a natural cut off.

[EyeCarntSpell]

Having spoken to an arab colleague last night. Asked why largely Muslim people are trying to to get to the coldest wettest and most remote part of Europe instead of a nice warm empty and wealthy Muslim country just on the doorstep.

The points he made ..

They dont want them.
No papers here, no entry. Trying to illegally enter will get a you a solid booting. Often much worse.
We are all fools.
They REALLY dont want them here.
We are fools who stopped the Nazi's from crossing the channel 75 years ago. Now we cannot stop a "skinny" in a track suit top from doing it.
We are soft touches who will look after whoever is thrown our way, after all we let in thousands from Sangatte on the grounds the French would be allow no further camps. Well that worked didnt it ??
We are going to be a Muslim country in 100 years by allowing in uncontrolled numbers.
We are all fools who are giving away our culture.
He also mentioned the word "Hirja" in a certain context. Oh dear.

He thinks he is clever. He is in for the check ride from hell next week ..

[squidge]

It's not true to say that refugees are not going to Muslim countries.

UN figures show nearly 2 million in Turkey, 1.2 million in Lebanon, 600 000 in Jordan, 250 000 in Iraq and 133 000 in Egypt. The highest number in Europe is 105 000 in Germany although that will rise given their humanitarians stand. Sweden has around 40 000, Austria 18 000, UK 187. Doesn't QUITE seem like they are all heading here does it? In fact only around 5% of Syrian refugees are in Europe

This reflects the point that I have been making that this is an international refugee crisis and it requires an international response. One additional point is that part of that response must be to also support Countries like Turkey and Greece to deal with the numbers they have.

[BetterTogether]

Let's throw our cards on the table the bombers where the Sons of Pakinstani immigrants that's one generation that failed to accept and integrate into out society.

As we see we those who also skip merrily on their way to join Dayesh who happen to also be the offspring of immigrants sometimes 2nd or 3rd generation.
This is the reality of the situation multiculturalism is a wonderfully failed social experiment. Those who are attacking our country or leaving to go fight have placed their religion " Islam " above the country the where born in.

Many surveys show that up to 20% of Muslims within the borders of this nation have sympathies for Dayesh.

Let us not dwell on the Muslim Council for Great Britain a self appointed non democratic organisation that has already sought to have Sharia law implemented.

We also have the situation of Sharia Courts already operating within areas out of sight and unaccountable.

Let's ignore the vast cultural differences which have led to thousands of innocent yet vulnerable girls being abused by Asian men because those who should of been there to protect them failed in their duty of care because they feared being labelled " racist" or those who are a vanished abroad against their will to be forced into marriages they do not consent to let alone the " honour " killings.

All these problems aren't a question of we the native indigenous people of these island or the previous waves of immigrants being intolerant or " racist " these are problems created purely by these groups of people utterly and totally failing to integrate into our society.
Yet despite all these numerous problems we have people wanting to bring further tens of thousands into this country without vetting them despite the security problems the issues of where to house them in a country already short of housing.
There comes a time when common sense decrees that the country has a sufficiently large population and has suffered already from a political experiment that has allowed immigrants to flood into the country already and changed some of our cities beyond recognition.

[davth]

Because I didn't have all night and it was a natural cut off.

Only a natural cut off to serve your argument.
But I feel we digress a bit.

[davth]

I would support them by sending out masses of bricklayers to build some decent walls for them, with a gun post or 2.

[cptdodger]

My daughter was four years old when she started school in Walthamstow, East London. She was in a class of 33. Of that 33, there was five (what you would class on a form) white British. The day she started she brought home a six page letter, for one paragraph, the rest of the pages covered every language and dialect you can imagine stating that, if she was found to be racist, she would be expelled. The school did not celebrate Easter but I got a card she had made, with Happy Eid written on it. By five years old, she could count from one to ten in urdu. The parents, generally mothers that came to collect their children from school could not, or would not speak a word of English, if I was in a shop, their children had to translate for them.

We then moved to Gravesend in Kent, where the school my daughter then attended was primarily white British, my daughter started to have constant headaches, after ruling out her eyesight being the problem, she was sent to hospital to check for a brain tumor. I can't tell you what we went through, thankfully it was not a brain tumor, it was found that because she had learned very little at her first school because the teacher had to concentrate on the children whose first language was not British, my daughter was struggling with the lessons at the new school, she needed remedial help to catch up, she was six.

My daughter started school in Wathamstow in 1987. The way things are going, there are going to be large areas of Britain where the white British are going to be in the minority, how is this fair to our children and grandchildren?

[davth]

I am not sure there is much relevance to the term White British, if you are British born you are just as much British as any other, regardless of color, creed or race.

However your point on the schooling is interesting, I have read reports that many areas of England, the schools are at breaking point with the number of new entrants to the schools which cannot speak a word of English and are "very traumatised" souls who need a great deal of time and effort spent on them.
Whilst this is a crying shame on the new school pupils, it is to the expense of the British born students education.

[cptdodger]

I am not sure there is much relevance to the term White British, if you are British born you are just as much British as any other, regardless of color, creed or race.

They may very well be termed as British, but the point still stands, if those British families cannot speak a word of English, then it has a detrimental effect on (as you say) British born children.

[davth]

They may very well be termed as British, but the point still stands, if those British families cannot speak a word of English, then it has a detrimental effect on (as you say) British born children.

There are some families on the western isles that do not speak English, far and far between now right enough.
And most of them would string you up if you called them British.
I dare say there will be a few in Wales also.

[BetterTogether]

Although education is a totally different subject I believe that English should be taught as the first language in all Schools except obviously language Schools which are generally for older students.
Across the world English is now considered the language of international commerce and is taught widely as a second language.
I am of the belief that gaining citizenship of this country should include mandatory English lessons and there is no reason for people to refuse to learn or claim special dispensations under some cultural reasons if they wish to reside in this country long term.
I am also of the belief that asylum should be given to those escaping persecution but should not be an automatic lifetime right as when the situation in which ever country people have fled from changes there may well be a good reason to repatriate them.
Recently a case was brought before the courts of a woman who had escaped Ghana and was married to some high ranking official prior to the political unsettlement in that country. Some years down the line she has been taken to court for claiming benefits to the sum of some £120,000 when she has been spending 3 months of the year playing golf in Ghana.
This may be an exception but it serves well to highlight how the systems put in place to help people are frequently abused. Once countries return to normality there is no reason for people not to return to them. Asylum should be granted as a means for refuge not as a means to resettle indefinitely that goes along with the offspring of those born here not being granted automatic british citizenship.

I'm sure many who have travelled down through the nation and are of an age to remember will of been amazed at how many of our larger cities have culturally changed beyond recognition, I know it's frequently used as a cliched joke but Bradford could easily be used as a prime example.

My better halfs parents frequently make reference to how parts of Glasgow are now culturally changed beyond recognition most major cities would shock those who have rarely if ever ventured south of Inverness.

[BetterTogether]

There are some families on the western isles that do not speak English, far and far between now right enough.And most of them would string you up if you called them British.I dare say there will be a few in Wales also.

North Wales used to be quite an awkward place to visit sometimes but over the last couple of decades the pockets of purely Welsh speakers has diminished and it's generally quite a friendly place to visit. Funnily enough they've stopped burning cottages as well !