Reply With QuoteWrite to our MP....you are having a laugh....Originally Posted by squidge
1K.Orger
The ruling elite ?? All you have done on this thread is post how awful we are because we do not want hundreds if not thousand of illegal immigrants invading this country illegally. And yes, I stress the word illegal. You then resorted to cutting and pasting only because we did not agree with your view, and because we did'nt agree, we are horrible people.
Maybe we have written "acres" on this and other threads, but at least we wrote the posts, it is then down to you whether you agree with what myself and other people wrote or not, but have the decency to respond in your own words and without the name calling.
Last edited by cptdodger; 16-Aug-15 at 14:05.
1K.Orger
Write to our MP....you are having a laugh....
1K.Orger
For the love of Mike.... I said that this is an international issue and the purpose of my posts was simply to ask a question about what we can do!!!!BT has replied that we CAN build higher fences but that doesn't address the international issues. Have you got some ideas or do you simply want to be rude and have a dig?
.Orger
I have written one post that was misunderstood and which I later explained and another in which I got, admittedly, a little heated but I have not name-called anyone nor said that they were 'horrible'. I think that folk can make up their own minds as to who is doing the name calling on here and I have certainly been made to feel unwelcome. Well, if you have taken offence then I am sorry.
As for the cutting and pasting, it was to show (as Squidge also says), that thousands of people dare to think differently on this, including people living in Kent (which was also referred to on here. I do not know why it was seen in any other light than that.
I have said consistently that I think that we could admit and help some of these people and have never said anything other than that.
Banned (Sock Puppet of previously banned user)
Internationally I believe other countries are building big fences, Donald Trump wants a big wall. Seems big fences and big walls are the way forward. And as an upshot think of all the jobs they'll create in the construction industry.
1K.Orger
& who'll get them there jobs... Imigrants I tell you... Imigrants!
“We're trapped in the belly of this horrible machine....
And the machine is bleeding to death."
1K.Orger
My posts never intend to be rude to you, but I have noticed that when I disagree with one of your pro SNP posts, I get accused of being rude. I do not agree with your points of view most of the time, just shows that there is a yes/no divide still and as far as I am concerned there always will be.
Once the original Grumpy Owld Man but alas no more
1K.Orger
How was my post "pro SNP"? I actually was trying to change the direction of the discussion from the endless discussions about what we CANT do to what we CAN do.
Your response said... "typical scot nat sloping shoulders, lots of words, but saying nothing." You were never bring complimentary Golach lol. I get very tired of your snidey little digs. It's boring and tiresome. I simply suggested that if you want an answer from the SNP about SNP policy that you ... Shock horror... Ask one of their elected representatives.
Finally - the only person creating any sort of divide is you. i havent given any sort of consideration to what anyone voted in the referendum since 19th September 2015. I have made no judgements about anyone based on their independence position EVER. You however harp on about it all the time and judge every one by yes or no.
I'm still trying to find out what people think we can do about the refugee crisis. Any suggestions?
Banned (Sock Puppet of previously banned user)
Stop selling inflatable boats to the Middle East or African Countries.
Definitely don't build any tunnels.
Also really high Walls Or Fences seem to work quite well.
And I do mean really High !
That's like really really really High oh and wide as well !
I've also heard Boris has a couple of water canon sitting around not doing much maybe they could lend them to the Greeks, as they are skint and jet them back across quickly !
Last edited by BetterTogether; 16-Aug-15 at 22:14.
1K.Orger
I don't even know what to say to this! was it an attempt at humour? If not it shows a complete ignorance, lack of understanding and actually a lack of humanity.
Many of the people arriving in Europe have taken their children, given up their homes, dressed them and put them in inflatable boats in the hope of escaping what has clearly become an intolerable dangerous situation for them. Many of them have not only risked their lives but the lives of their children. How desperate do you have to be to do that?
You think they do that to get Ł35 a week from the UK government?
What we need is for all EU members to take responsibility for assessing people on arrival in Europe, a robust joint action which makes sure they don't live in squalor or in the streets and which identifies refugees, asylum seekers and processes them quickly and efficiently. Every country needs to take their share of these poor people. Some have relatives, even husbands or wives already in Britain - settled. We could easily take those people. I'm not suggesting that we take everyone but that we are part of resolving this issue and we take a share.
On top of that URGENT international effort needs to be made to resolve the issues which make people flee their homes. The international community is in part responsible for some of the problems and must be part of the solutions. Not sure THATS happening either. This situation is a global problem, it needs an international response and Britain needs to be part of that. In a week that has seen maybe as many as 70 people, men women and children die in the back of a truck, surely you can see that what we have, in Europe, and in Britain isn't working.
Last edited by squidge; 28-Aug-15 at 17:17.
1K.Orger
Bit more information for Everyone
http://tracks.unhcr.org/2015/08/mira...htmare-at-sea/
1K.Orger
Germany has also come up with a ten point plan which puts Britain's contribution to the debate to shame. Here it is.
German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier and Economics Minister Sigmar Gabriel wrote in an opinion piece, identifying a 10 point plan. Europe is facing a great challenge for our generation. Never before have so many people fled political persecution and war as today, many of whom seek refuge here with us in Europe. In view of the crises in our neighbourhood, we must assume that this could remain the case for years. As Europeans, we owe it to ourselves and to the world to rise to the great challenge posed by these people looking for help.One thing is clear, and that is that the response so far does not meet the standards that Europe must set for itself. Europe cannot put this off any longer and the EU must act now.
We must therefore pursue a European asylum, refugee and migration policy that is founded on the principle of solidarity and our shared values of humanity. Ten points must urgently be addressed in this regard:
First, humane conditions must prevail throughout the EU when refugees are received. For this, we need EU-wide standards that are complied with in every EU member state.
Second, a common European code of asylum must guarantee asylum status that is valid throughout the EU for refugees in need of protection. Looking to the future, we need a new, much more ambitious integration of European asylum policy.
Third, we need a fair distribution of refugees in Europe. The citizens of our country are helping to receive and integrate refugees into our society as never before. This solidarity will only be maintained long-term if people see that the refugee crisis is being approached fairly throughout Europe. A state of affairs in which – as today – only a handful of member states shoulder the entire burden is just as unsustainable as a system that forces those countries that happen to form the outer border of the EU to take the strain alone. We must therefore reform the existing Dublin system. We need binding and objective criteria for refugee quotas for all member states that take their respective capabilities into account.
Fourth, Europe needs a common approach to managing its borders, which cannot be merely restricted to securing our frontiers. Above all, we need more European responsibility for registering and looking after newly arrived refugees.
Fifth, we must provide immediate assistance to the EU countries that are currently under particular strain. Germany is the only EU country to have made available emergency funds to improve the situation of refugees on the Greek islands. The EU and its member states must become more efficient in this area and quickly offer countries first receiving refugees practical and financial support. For us in Germany, we must ensure that the municipal authorities above all are able to cope with the giant challenges before them. In order to do this, we must provide them with lasting and systematic financial support.
Sixth, we cannot stand idly by and watch people risk their lives trying to get to us. The Mediterranean Sea cannot be a mass grave for desperate refugees. Europe’s humanitarian legacy, indeed our European view of humanity, are hanging in the balance. With this in mind, we launched enormous concerted efforts to organise marine rescue operations in the Mediterranean Sea in the spring. We must consolidate these efforts across Europe in the long term and equip the EU with the required capacities. In the long run, we will only be able to help refugees in need of protection if those who are not entitled to asylum return to their countries of origin.
For this, we must, seventh, make readmission a key priority of our relations with the countries of origin and also be prepared to make technical and financial support for these counties contingent on constructive cooperation. Existing incentives such as visa facilitations could be expanded.
Eighth, we must come to an EU-wide understanding as to which nations we consider to be safe countries of origin. All countries of the western Balkans aim to join the EU, and we have good cause to extend to them the prospect of accession to the Community. By the same token, this means that we cannot treat them as persecuting countries at the same time. In the future, a country that fulfils the criteria to be an EU accession candidate should be considered throughout the EU to be a safe country of origin.
Ninth, Germany needs an immigration Act. We need a prudent, controlled immigration policy that facilitates lawful stays for the purposes of employment. We must reduce the burden on the asylum system in this area.
Tenth, a comprehensive European asylum, refugee and migration policy also requires new political initiatives to fight the causes of flight in the countries of the Middle East and Africa. Stabilising failing states and curbing violence and civil war must go hand in hand with concentrated efforts to achieve economic development and create genuine economic and social prospects – especially for young people in the countries of origin. All of the international community’s efforts, above all those of the European Union and the United Nations, must be focused with the utmost intensity on this aim.
All of this goes to show that the political framework for action has long since ceased to be national – also and particularly with regard to refugee and migration policy. Only together and only at the European level will we be able at all to find rational solutions.
Worth comparing and contrasting this thoughtful approach with That of the UK, who according to channel four news have taken only 216 Syrian refugees so far!
Last edited by squidge; 29-Aug-15 at 08:42.
Banned (Sock Puppet of previously banned user)
Lots of " we must " " we cannot " and " we need " in your post but the reality us we actually don't have to do an awful lot except keep our borders secure.
No one forces these people to pay people smugglers to funnel them up through numerous other countries to our border.
We currently live in the most densely populated country in Europe, populations are not declining and we had a report very recently that over 8 million where not born in this nation.
Those number do not include the illegal immigrants who do not show on the radar.
It's very easy to keep demanding that we let more and more people into the country using excuses that we need them but the reality is our public services are under huge strain by the increase in population.
The standard excuse of we need immigrants to fill jobs is one of a self fulfilling one bring in a million people so we can employ 10,000 in the NHS.
It's about time those we cry and hand wring that we aren't doing enough should take a long hard look at our major cities and see that they no longer represent the indigenous people of these islands but are a multi cultural mish mash of multi ethnicities thrust upon the whole nation by those intent on creating some kind of utopian daydream.
We are constantly shown boatloads of people mainly young men trying to enter our country, yes there are a few women and children in amongst them but for the larger part they are men.
How can we as a small island keep taking more and more people from a huge continent maybe those same young men should stay in their own countries and stand for what they believe in, as we have done in this country down through the centuries.
It's not as though wars, civil wars and social unrest are unknown in Europe we have just succeeded in creating a small point in history that we are managing to live relatively peacefully.
If those young men keep fleeing then the countries they leave will remain unstable and never find peace and Europe will eventually become inundated with people from everywhere else.
Maybe it's about time they stayed and fought for their own countries and threw over the despots and tyrannical regimes.
We are not international policemen nor a world refugee camp and sometimes we should sit back and say not my problem do nothing then shortly after the flood will stop when they realise that we aren't accepting everyone in anymore.
Last edited by BetterTogether; 29-Aug-15 at 11:37.
1K.Orger
Does it suit you to talk about men?
Does it suit you to ignore the fact that there are women and children, fathers and children dying.
There are pictures today of dead children washed upon beaches. This isn't about filling jobs, it isn't about taking "immigrants" or "migrant workers and framing the debate as such demeans you. This is about a REFUGEE Crisis. We don't need them but, my god, they need us. They need us to see who they really are and why they are really in the situation they are in and they need us to care about their children dying.
We arent the worlds policemen when it suits you and others like you. But we surely are when WE think it's ok to go into Libya or Syria - even after promising in parliament that our troops won't be doing so. And yet when people need our help we, you, turn away.
Well "Better Together" you shut your door, you turn your head away and feel safe when you are tucked up in your bed at night. Be happy that Britain's borders are closed and don't worry about those people dying because they are trying to escape a nightmare that we in our cosy lives can't imagine even in our worst nightmares. In the meantime there are a number of local highland organisations trying to arrange donations of clothes and food for those people in Calais and more widely throughout Europe. There is a Facebook page been set up. If you want to help PM me for details.
It's not much. It's not enough by anybody's measure - oh except Maybe you, Better Together- it's probably too much for you. But it IS something and in a society full of heartless inhumanity it is, at least a step In The right direction.
BT nothing I say again on this subject is for you. I have utterly no respect for your view on this subject and I'm not going to engage with you over this again. I did think about sending you a link to the pictures of dead children that I inadvertently saw last night, or the one to the Syrian mother with her dead baby but I decided it wouldn't do any good and you would only scream about being bullied or demand my banning so I didn't bother. But don't expect me to discuss this situation with you again, I'd do as well talking to a piece of rock in my garden
.Orger
We should never have entered, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya or Syria.
The Iraq was was Illegal and arguably kicked off the world as we know it today.
But we are where we are now.
The situation with the immigrants is terrible but I dont think the UK as a nation can afford to keep our doors open to them.
Our NHS and social systems are crumbling under the pressure placed upon them and as a finite resource I fear they will collapse.
Lets not forget though that generally its the innocent that are suffering here, the EU need to stamp out the human trafficking gangs as a priority.
Then get refugee camps set up in the country of destination in the EU, not the country that is perceived as the land of milk and honey.
The trafficking gangs want them in the UK to exploit their benifits.
Last edited by davth; 29-Aug-15 at 15:52.
Banned (Sock Puppet of previously banned user)
Ah Squidge there you go again trying to resolve all the worlds problems from your big comfy armchair.
I doubt you've ever served on the sharp end and actually seen dead bodies and mutilatation or any of the other atrocities mankind chooses to inflict on itself.
Just for the record I have and it will serve you well to remember I have served this country in some of our military interventions to try and restore some chance of humanity and civilisation to them.
It cannot be the fault of the west that each time a despotic regime is removed and the people of the nations we interven in choose to ignore the opportunity given to them and once again descend their countries into what is no more than civil wars and permeate more barbarities upon each other.
As I have said previously this country has paid its price with the lives on man men and women to bring peace to our own shores and those of others it is time for those countries to put their own houses in order.
Your sanctimonious pious waffling are no more than that don't offer to send me pictures when I've seen and experienced more in real life than any picture you send .
You sit there an imagine your worst nightmare I can shut my eyes and recall the smell of death and decay something thankfully you never will, so do not dare for shame lecture me on enjoying the land I've fought for and wishing to remain a safe comfortable place for those who live here.
Why don't you for once stop lecturing us all and go do some voluntary work for the Red Cross or Medicin San Frontiers and actually experience the realities then come back and maybe just maybe we can discuss these foreign countries you've only read or watched on TV but no clue how about how they really function the tribal and religious factions that tear them apart regardless of anything we do here.
Meanwhile you sit there have your nice comfy chats and tea parties and lecture everyone else on how to do everything with your nice middle class middle of the road existence but forget that others have experienced first hand some of what you can only IMAGINE and that's the problem it's all IMAGINATION not based on any first hand experience whatsoever no in depth knowledge except what you consider from pictures and media.
Let me tell you this for free many of the countries and people you wish to help would take every penny you have your house life savings and then think nothing of throwing you in an unmarked hole in the ground for all your generosity, your civilised liberal western view is mocked by them and taken advantage of, it's seen as a sign of utter weakness to be abused that's why so many of these so called immigrants choose not to seek political asylum but force their wants on our country as though it's their birthright.
Last edited by BetterTogether; 29-Aug-15 at 16:34.
.Orger
ooft.....
Dont hold back there BT
Banned (Sock Puppet of previously banned user)
Well we hear an awful lot from Mdm Squidge who use the proverbial " we " as though she speaks for the whole nation but " we " that silent majority have already seen how wonky her views are utterly wrong on the independence issue by a rather nice majority.
Now she has the mendacity to pretend she speaks for the whole nation it might go down well with her acolytes who all sit there in her meetings and clap rabidly to every word espoused, but there is a reality she only address's those who agree with her views already.
Outside in the big wide world I've not heard a word from her about supporting some genuine asylum seekers like the translators who helped our forces in Afghanistan and are now suffering horrendously at the hands of the Taliban.
How about she stops lecturing the world and actually gets out there for once and does some real hands on dirty work, I know for a fact there are plenty of opportunities to go and do some real good actually physically helping people rather than just sitting online and typing away as though she is some kind of moral expert on every issue under the sun.
How about rather than all these tiresome little charity oh aren't we wonderful gigs and also spending more money on needless bureaucracy and more directors and staff sending Aunty Morags knitted wooly socks to Calais appeals they actually send their money to the real big hitters dealing with the big messes where money does makes a difference the Red Cross, Medecin San Frontiers to name but two.
What we actually need are less small charities wasting money on offices staff and more money being sent to those that do use the money wisely and in areas of greatest need.
That way the maximum amount of money goes to those that need it most.
How helping the people who can't afford the pay expensive people traffickers to ship them halfway across the world but are so poor they are stuck in the midst of all the atrocities unable to escape with no options but just stay within those countries and suffer untold inhumanties.
No let's focus on the ones who choose to make themselves nationless by paying thousands to criminals, destroying their passports and papers and then turning up in another country expecting us to take them in.
Remember here we are not discussing the genuine asylum seekers who automatically get resettled under UN charters we are discussing those who deliberately flout the rules to try and get round the systems.
All Squidges ideas do are excerbate an already escalating problem by encouraging more people to try running the gauntlet of criminal gangs who aim to exploit those trying to gain access to Europe.
The tide will not be turned until those in these countries realise that problems aren't solved by running away from them but by standing up and actually doing something to stop the problems.
Squidge talks of boot on the ground in Syria but there have not been any major military incursions into that theatre, yes they Bomb strategic targets and may occasionally send in small units of special forces to remove military leaders but that is to stem the progress of Isis not to interfere in the Syrian conflict which is a civil war.
Last edited by BetterTogether; 29-Aug-15 at 17:29.
1K.Orger
Have to say hear hear, Better Together, I am with you all the way.
Once the original Grumpy Owld Man but alas no more
1K.Orger
Ahhh lol Better Together, you know me so well. Lol. You know I won't let you get away with personal attacks without responding lol.
Honey, you know nothing of what I have seen or not but as you so enjoy making assumptions about me then crack on. You know nothing about where I have been and what I have seen nor whether I am sitting in my armchair, or where I have been or what I have done. You share your experiences and are right to do so and should be proud of your service. I salute you and respect your experience.
Of course you would not want to see such pictures if you have seen these things first hand.
But -I believe you are wrong. If your experiences have hardened you to believe that these people should be left to die then you are wrong.
If your experiences have made you think it's ok to close your door and turn your back on people - that it's ok for Britain to ignore her international obligations to provide support for refugees then you are wrong.
Once again, you persist in saying that my comments mean we should open the door to everyone wherever and in whatever situation. You are wrong.
Your representation of this as an immigration issue is I, along with many others believe wrong. This is a refugee crisis. That we leave people to be at the mercy of traffickers, that there is no process whereby the EU has put in place a system of assessing these people when they arrive in Europe, before they even get to our Border is wrong.
You say I set myself up to "speak for the whole nation" you are wrong and you know that lol. I REPEATEDLY make it clear that I speak for no one but myself.
We must never turn our back on the worlds desperate people.
You call me sanctimonious and pious, you throw around liberal and western as though they are insults but you know what I would rather wake up every morning and do what I can, I would rather have "tea parties" (as if lol), I would rather have you mock me and slag me off that go to bed thinking that I could have done something and didn't. Even if all I can do is challenge you, face your wrath, post an alternative view so someone else THINKS about these issues. It is clear you despise me and my views and hold everything I say in utter contempt. So be it. I don't care AT ALL about your opinion of me. I fundamentally disagree with your point of view and I have an ABSOLUTE right to do so, I have an absolute right to believe something different for you and to think you are wrong. That's not pious, it's not sanctimonious and it's not moralistic. It is just different from yours and you are no more right than I am. And you know what? I'm not the only one that thinks your view is wrong- guess what? There are LOADS of us with different views from you on a whole range of options.
When I had nothing, when all I had was the clothes I stood up in and I had to start all over again with my kids with nothing, people helped me, with plates, towels, knives and forks, food - I didn't even have the money for toilet rolls and yet so many people helped me. You close the door Better Together - I will NEVER stop trying to help people. Ever. With small things or big things. In a little way or in a massive way - whatever I can do, I will do. If that makes me a soft touch, if sometimes people take advantage of that then so be it.
Britain should fulfil its international obligations to these refugees. If we don't then we are no better than those despots you were involved in toppling and I'm sure that's not what any of us want Britain to be.
Last edited by squidge; 29-Aug-15 at 18:30.
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